Paul Herman on fri 8 feb 02
Vince wrote:
"Central Pneumatic" and "Chicago Electric" tools.
They are absolute crap, and they will die soon.
Amen to that.
Another thing to consider:
Do you really want to support CHINA's racket? Twenty million prisoners
working in factories.... sounds a lot like slavery doesn't it?
Freemarket capitalism but no freedom of speech. Government censored
internet access. Did you ever see the old black and white film classic
"Metropolis"? Do you really want to send them some money?
Paul in Doyle
Ceramic Design Group on sat 9 feb 02
on 2/9/02 12:46 AM, Paul Herman at potter@PSLN.COM wrote:
> Vince wrote:
> "Central Pneumatic" and "Chicago Electric" tools.
> They are absolute crap, and they will die soon.
>=20
> Amen to that.
>
Consider the following analogy.........
I purchased a Patagonia jacket 15 years ago for $75.00 on sale at a store i=
n
Texas. I have used it and abused it in many many ways in all different area=
s
of outdoor recreation. While it has shown its age, it is still a strong,
usable garment that has proven its worth year after year. I still buy
Patagonia (or Patagucci as some would call it) and to some extent, Marmot
and Mountain Hardware. These garments will probably outlive me!
I have some Ingersol/Rand pneumatic tools that were costly on the front end=
,
but have proven their worth year after year. I do have some Harbor Freight
garbage pneumatic tools that cost relatively nothing on the front end and
have proven their ineffectiveness and poorly designed and manufactured
qualities from the get go.
I have a Delviliblis HVLP sprayer that is used daily. I would not even
consider a sprayer from Harbor Freight or its kin.
I have many of Phil's Bison tools that are used every day by myself and my
staff. They are fine tools that will cut and trim wonderfully and not dull.
I have a Bison tool that I use to clean and trim gutters in
Hydrostone/Hydrocal/Ceramical products for our RAM=A9 press dies. It has been
sharpened once in 4 years. And yes, this is an indisputable testimonial. A
bit expensive on the front end, but will last a lifetime when properly care=
d
for.
I have used perhaps thousands of cheesey and poorly made Kemper tools that
dull in one session. Cheap on the front end. Discardable after one day of
trimming. Why doesn't Kemper get the message?
Cheap tools and cheap equipment are like cheap inexpensive paint. You will
usually have to repaint earlier and will not be satisfied even when you hav=
e
finished.
Why is it that potter's really neglect the importance of purchasing quality
items at the start? I guess some would rather whine incessantly on this
list.
Another for-instance: I recently had to do some major repair work on our
RAM=A9 press. The press weighs in at an impressive 6000 plus pounds. Its big,
and the tools to work on it are equally as large. I needed some big impact
sockets, re-threading dies, and biggest of all, a machine to move and
elevate the press (low headroom, can't use a fork truck). Thanks to both
McMaster Carr Supply and MSC, I now have high quality tools that will last
me a lifetime. I also know now, perhaps more than I need to know about
fixing a RAM=A9 press!
Buy good tools. Don't buy junk. We spend so much time on our work and its
craftsmanship, that the same effort really should be extended to the tool w=
e
use.
Jonathan
--=20
Jonathan Kaplan
CERAMIC DESIGN GROUP
PO Box 775112
Steamboat Springs, CO 80577
(970) 879-9139
info@ceramicdesigngroup.net
www.ceramicdesigngroup.net
Richard Jeffery on sat 9 feb 02
whilst I agree with the sentiments, this is a naive view - it is largely
western companies that are having goods manufactured there, or are actively
importing them. western companies that seem quite happy to profit from the
situation.........
just ask yourself whose racket it is
Richard Jeffery
Web Design and Photography
www.theeleventhweb.co.uk
Bournemouth UK
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Paul Herman
Sent: 09 February 2002 07:47
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Chinese tools
Vince wrote:
"Central Pneumatic" and "Chicago Electric" tools.
They are absolute crap, and they will die soon.
Amen to that.
Another thing to consider:
Do you really want to support CHINA's racket? Twenty million prisoners
working in factories.... sounds a lot like slavery doesn't it?
Freemarket capitalism but no freedom of speech. Government censored
internet access. Did you ever see the old black and white film classic
"Metropolis"? Do you really want to send them some money?
Paul in Doyle
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Tommy Humphries on sat 9 feb 02
And here you have to ask why western companies (mainly US) are going across
the borders. could it be that through the actions of unions that the wages
for the average factory worker makes it economically unfeasible to pay $30
per hour for workers. Don't get me wrong...unions have done a wonderful job
getting the working conditions in factories up to standards , but the
constant raising of the union wages above minimum wage leaves product prices
out of the reach of the average consumer. Don't know an easy answer to this.
More than ever it seems that you get what you pay for. Pay a high price for
products that are produced with high labor costs, in factories with a high
quality standard, with hi grade materials. Or you can purchase cheap
products produced with cheap labor, usually with materials and parts shipped
over there from automated factories here.
Like it or not, you can make a months salary in a Chinese company with a
days salary from a US company. When it comes to common labor what would you
want to pay, 30 bucks an hour or 30 bucks a month.
When you see an ATT or GE plant closing it is not usually one of the
manufacturing plants, it is the assembly plants. It is cheaper to ship the
component parts 30,000 miles than it is to put them together in your own
home town. The manufacturing plants are mainly automated machining
operations...not much manual labor involved there, so the costs to the
company are minimal.
Made in USA means made with expensive American labor. You are paying for
your neighbor's and your own way of life.
Tommy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Jeffery"
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: Chinese tools
> whilst I agree with the sentiments, this is a naive view - it is largely
> western companies that are having goods manufactured there, or are
actively
> importing them. western companies that seem quite happy to profit from
the
> situation.........
>
> just ask yourself whose racket it is
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Richard Jeffery
>
> Web Design and Photography
> www.theeleventhweb.co.uk
> Bournemouth UK
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
> Behalf Of Paul Herman
> Sent: 09 February 2002 07:47
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Chinese tools
>
>
> Vince wrote:
> "Central Pneumatic" and "Chicago Electric" tools.
> They are absolute crap, and they will die soon.
>
> Amen to that.
>
> Another thing to consider:
> Do you really want to support CHINA's racket? Twenty million prisoners
> working in factories.... sounds a lot like slavery doesn't it?
> Freemarket capitalism but no freedom of speech. Government censored
> internet access. Did you ever see the old black and white film classic
> "Metropolis"? Do you really want to send them some money?
>
> Paul in Doyle
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Paul Taylor on sun 10 feb 02
Dear jonathan
Thanks for the information you gave off list. You put a worried mind at
rest.
I will agree with you about the tools I would only buy the best for the
professional work I do.
I do think there is a role for cheap substandard tools. For example I
have some bolt cutters and other tools that I use once in a blue moon but
when I need them I need them NOW and town is six miles away. So the cheap
ones will do the odd jobs I need to do.
My wife and I pot on our own. I have a big kiln which makes large pots
convenient to make however I fire it infrequently so I have decided on a lo=
w
capitol cost with inferior burners which will last me out as opposed to hig=
h
capitol cost which I will never recoup.
I have noticed that some cheap tools just need a little work on them
regrinding and sharpening especially hand tools like screw drivers ,planes,
etc .
Some times I feel it is only worth buying cheap tools because the jobs I
am doing with them seem to burn out expensive ones just as fast, This seems
to be the case with glaze sprayers. And more to the point some tools get
habitually neglected and you may as well loose a cheap one as an expensive
one although I have had more luck with tools since putting them all on a
display board.
But essentially you are right - the joy of using the right tool for th=
e
job and a good one at that. I would not consider using a cheap wheel or som=
e
of the pottery tools you can buy that are better made your self - or cheap
brushes.=20
The trouble is that sometimes it is impossible to get a decent tool and
only the cheap ones are on display. I have three set squares non of them at
90 degrees. I will have to order a decent one since you certainly will not
buy one round here. When you order tools there is no indication of the
quality if I make a mistake with buying a tool it is more out of ignorance
than stingy ness.
Or the tools that are now sold for the job but do not work as well as
traditional tools . For example for pine and spruce woods the only man is
the German wooden plane. There is a knack setting it up but a metal one doe=
s
not plane pine as well as a wooden plane.
I also find all purpose means all useless but I still have a few to do
those once in a blue moon jobs where preserving with an inadequate tool is
better than no tool at all. By all accounts the Dremmal is an exception
--=20
Regards from Paul Taylor
http://www.anu.ie/westportpottery
In time the biggest hammer will fail to smash a nut that is the nature of
'disaster' - but also 'hope'.
> From: Ceramic Design Group
> Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
> Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:48:45 -0700
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Chinese tools
>=20
> on 2/9/02 12:46 AM, Paul Herman at potter@PSLN.COM wrote:
>=20
>> Vince wrote:
>> "Central Pneumatic" and "Chicago Electric" tools.
>> They are absolute crap, and they will die soon.
>>=20
>> Amen to that.
>>=20
>=20
> Consider the following analogy.........
>=20
> I purchased a Patagonia jacket 15 years ago for $75.00 on sale at a store=
in
> Texas. I have used it and abused it in many many ways in all different ar=
eas
> of outdoor recreation. While it has shown its age, it is still a strong,
> usable garment that has proven its worth year after year. I still buy
> Patagonia (or Patagucci as some would call it) and to some extent, Marmot
> and Mountain Hardware. These garments will probably outlive me!
>=20
> I have some Ingersol/Rand pneumatic tools that were costly on the front e=
nd,
> but have proven their worth year after year. I do have some Harbor Freigh=
t
> garbage pneumatic tools that cost relatively nothing on the front end and
> have proven their ineffectiveness and poorly designed and manufactured
> qualities from the get go.
>=20
> I have a Delviliblis HVLP sprayer that is used daily. I would not even
> consider a sprayer from Harbor Freight or its kin.
>=20
> I have many of Phil's Bison tools that are used every day by myself and m=
y
> staff. They are fine tools that will cut and trim wonderfully and not dul=
l.
> I have a Bison tool that I use to clean and trim gutters in
> Hydrostone/Hydrocal/Ceramical products for our RAM=A9 press dies. It has be=
en
> sharpened once in 4 years. And yes, this is an indisputable testimonial. =
A
> bit expensive on the front end, but will last a lifetime when properly ca=
red
> for.
>=20
> I have used perhaps thousands of cheesey and poorly made Kemper tools tha=
t
> dull in one session. Cheap on the front end. Discardable after one day of
> trimming. Why doesn't Kemper get the message?
>=20
> Cheap tools and cheap equipment are like cheap inexpensive paint. You wil=
l
> usually have to repaint earlier and will not be satisfied even when you h=
ave
> finished.
>=20
> Why is it that potter's really neglect the importance of purchasing quali=
ty
> items at the start? I guess some would rather whine incessantly on this
> list.
>=20
> Another for-instance: I recently had to do some major repair work on our
> RAM=A9 press. The press weighs in at an impressive 6000 plus pounds. Its bi=
g,
> and the tools to work on it are equally as large. I needed some big impac=
t
> sockets, re-threading dies, and biggest of all, a machine to move and
> elevate the press (low headroom, can't use a fork truck). Thanks to both
> McMaster Carr Supply and MSC, I now have high quality tools that will las=
t
> me a lifetime. I also know now, perhaps more than I need to know about
> fixing a RAM=A9 press!
>=20
> Buy good tools. Don't buy junk. We spend so much time on our work and its
> craftsmanship, that the same effort really should be extended to the tool=
we
> use.
>=20
>=20
> Jonathan
> --=20
> Jonathan Kaplan
> CERAMIC DESIGN GROUP
> PO Box 775112
> Steamboat Springs, CO 80577
> (970) 879-9139
>=20
> info@ceramicdesigngroup.net
> www.ceramicdesigngroup.net
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
_____
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>=20
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>=20
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
Steve Mills on mon 11 feb 02
I have found this thread particularly interesting; of all the tools that
we sell in our shop here in the UK, 1/3 are purchased from a company in
Taiwan. They are very well made. At one stage we used to stock a simple
electric wheel which they made that bore more than a passing resemblance
to a certain well-known Japanese wheel. It too was beautifully made, and
I am still servicing (very occasionally) wheels that we sold nearly 20
years ago made by this company. In recent years I have been sending
mouth sprayers made in stainless steel by these people to customers in
the USA among other places, nobody has yet complained about the quality.
I use them myself, and would consider my workshop under equipped without
them. What I'm saying is, don't knock it just because it has *made in
China* written on it, stuff made in Taiwan has ROC at the end of its
point of origin. This is not to say that everything made in Taiwan is
wonderful, but I know this company, and I trust their quality.
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Philip Poburka on tue 12 feb 02
Dear Steve and all,
This is a welcome distinction.
It used to be that one tended to hear some distinction made between Formosa,
Taiwan or 'Free China' as it was sometimes called, and 'Red China' as IT was
called.
Now-a-days...this seems lost in the shuffle so often.
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Mills"
To:
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: Chinese tools
> I have found this thread particularly interesting; of all the tools that
> we sell in our shop here in the UK, 1/3 are purchased from a company in
> Taiwan. They are very well made. At one stage we used to stock a simple
> electric wheel which they made that bore more than a passing resemblance
> to a certain well-known Japanese wheel. It too was beautifully made, and
> I am still servicing (very occasionally) wheels that we sold nearly 20
> years ago made by this company. In recent years I have been sending
> mouth sprayers made in stainless steel by these people to customers in
> the USA among other places, nobody has yet complained about the quality.
> I use them myself, and would consider my workshop under equipped without
> them. What I'm saying is, don't knock it just because it has *made in
> China* written on it, stuff made in Taiwan has ROC at the end of its
> point of origin. This is not to say that everything made in Taiwan is
> wonderful, but I know this company, and I trust their quality.
> --
> Steve Mills
> Bath
> UK
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
iandol on wed 13 feb 02
Dear Steve Mills,
About thirty years ago I saw an advertisement in CM for a Taiwan Co. =
advertising tools. Got their catalogue and bought a $100 sample pack to =
my own choice. What a selection, things you never see in the normal run =
of things. I think I had two sets, large and small of 36 boxwood =
sculpting tools, serrated tools for plaster work and a host of ribs in =
stainless and wood. Great value. They also had a copy of a very popular =
Japanese wheel as well.
Best regards,
Ivor.
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