Philip Poburka on thu 7 mar 02
Hmmmm...I thought Propane enjoyed the reputation of being a 'creeping' or
settleing gas, and 'Natural-Gas' as expected to more readily ascend.
Maybe too, there could be a differential ratio of thermal expansion among
them?
Where sometimes it is one-way, and sometimes another?
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Clark"
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: need help with problem gas (haha)
> Julie, according to my source of info for all such matters, my wife
Ruth
> Kravetz...chemistry teacher extraordinaire, I have
> been informed that Propane (C3H8....can't do subscripts sorry) has a molar
> mass that is indeed lighter than air. Natural Gas (CH4....with a small
> amount of other stuff) has a molar mass that is greater than air. Because
of
> this the propane will rise and the natural gas will fall. THis all has
> something to do with density.
> Make sure that there is a goodly amount of ventilation, proper burner
> system, and good hard pipe from your fuel source. If you don't want to
mess
> with the local natural gas provider you will pretty much need to go with
> propane, unless you are considering using wood, dung, oil, or some exotic
> source.
> There is no need to worry about the propane as long as you take the
> proper precautions. Contact your local propane dealer and ask them what
they
> have to offer (tanks, regulator, hose.) If you need to manifold two or
more
> tanks together they can probably make a manifold type of connection for
you
> or tell you how to go about doing it.
> The greatest danger lies in not having the proper safety system on
your
> burners, regardless of whether or not you use propane or natural gas.
> Contact Mark Ward and speak to him....he knows a lot, has practically
> anything that you will need, and is very forthcoming with information. His
> business is Ward Burners and he advertises in most issues of ceramics
> monthly and the other trade publications.
> Craig Dunn Clark
> 619 East 11 1/2 st
> Houston, Texas 77008
> (713)861-2083
> mudman@hal-pc.org
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julie Milazzo"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:55 PM
> Subject: Re: need help with problem gas (haha)
>
>
> > I'm not sure if it is instinct or experience, but I
> > really am afraid of blowing up. I read on the Clayart
> > archives that propane is heavier than air, and will
> > tend to pool, whereas natural gas is lighter, so it
> > would tend to float up. I may very well be one of
> > those peopkle who could get hurt with a butter knife,
> > but ever since my sophomore year of college, I've been
> > really scared of the damage I can do. I blew up my
> > face while trying to light a gas fire in the
> > fireplace, and lost fourteen inches of hair besides
> > (the left half of my head looked pubic for several
> > weeks). I just bought a house which will become part
> > studio and gallery besides, and I really don't want to
> > tempt fate... I know, very irrational, but nonetheless
> > true. Other than my fear of supermarkets and fire, I'm
> > actually fairly normal! Jules
> > --- Snail Scott wrote:
> > > At 08:04 AM 3/7/02 -0800, you wrote:
> > > >...If I do
> > > >not have access to a natural gas line (I live on an
> > > >island), does that make my only option propane?
> > >
> > >
> > > Why do you want to avoid propane? -Snail
> > >
> > >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> > > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> > >
> > > You may look at the archives for the list or change
> > > your subscription
> > > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> > >
> > > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> > > reached at melpots@pclink.com.
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
> > http://mail.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Paul Herman on thu 7 mar 02
OOPS!!!
Got it totally backward, propane is heavier!
Hardway
----------
>From: Craig Clark
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: need help with problem gas (haha)
>Date: Thu, Mar 7, 2002, 6:59 PM
>
> I have
> been informed that Propane (C3H8....can't do subscripts sorry) has a molar
> mass that is indeed lighter than air. Natural Gas (CH4....with a small
> amount of other stuff) has a molar mass that is greater than air. Because of
> this the propane will rise and the natural gas will fall. THis all has
> something to do with density.
Julie Milazzo on thu 7 mar 02
Hey everyone, I'm a little confused about my options
regarding hooking a kiln up to propane or natural gas.
I've checked on the Clayart archives, but couldn't
find an answer to my question, which is this: If I do
not have access to a natural gas line (I live on an
island), does that make my only option propane? Is it
possible to get a gas tank, like a gas station does,
or is that yet another type of gas that I can't use? I
will be firing to cone ten, and am ambivalent about
contacting gas companies, as I fear they would tell me
anything to make a sale. I really, really like my
life, and don't want to blow up. I can see the
obituary now, "young potter dies from a case of bad
gas..." Any help would be great; any help today would
be fantastic. Thank you! Julie Milazzo
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
Snail Scott on thu 7 mar 02
At 08:04 AM 3/7/02 -0800, you wrote:
>...If I do
>not have access to a natural gas line (I live on an
>island), does that make my only option propane?
Why do you want to avoid propane? -Snail
Hank Murrow on thu 7 mar 02
>Hey everyone, I'm a little confused about my options
>regarding hooking a kiln up to propane or natural gas.
>I've checked on the Clayart archives, but couldn't
>find an answer to my question, which is this: If I do
>not have access to a natural gas line (I live on an
>island), does that make my only option propane? Is it
>possible to get a gas tank, like a gas station does,
>or is that yet another type of gas that I can't use? I
>will be firing to cone ten, and am ambivalent about
>contacting gas companies, as I fear they would tell me
>anything to make a sale. I really, really like my
>life, and don't want to blow up. I can see the
>obituary now, "young potter dies from a case of bad
>gas..." Any help would be great; any help today would
>be fantastic. Thank you! Julie Milazzo
Dear Julie;
You are wise to study this with care. Natural gas is lighter than
air, and so will rise. propane is heavier than air and so will fall and
flow to the lowest point. If you allow it to leave the building, a small
leak will not prove dangerous. If it is not allowed to leave the enclosure
of your building, it may collect and if touched off by an open flame or
spark, will explode.
I have installed my kilns
(http://www.ceramicsmonthly.org/mustreads/shinofire.asp) with both natural
gas and propane. I have found little difference, one being the relative
lack of water vapor in propane leading to the need for a stronger reduction
atmosphere for the same effect on the glazes, and the heavier than air
requirement. Usually, propane includes a built-in odor to facilitate
awareness of leaks. Propane has more calorific value per unit volume than
Natural gas, so your mixer orifices will need to be sized about 2 1/2 times
smaller.
Good luck, Hank
Julie Milazzo on thu 7 mar 02
I'm not sure if it is instinct or experience, but I
really am afraid of blowing up. I read on the Clayart
archives that propane is heavier than air, and will
tend to pool, whereas natural gas is lighter, so it
would tend to float up. I may very well be one of
those peopkle who could get hurt with a butter knife,
but ever since my sophomore year of college, I've been
really scared of the damage I can do. I blew up my
face while trying to light a gas fire in the
fireplace, and lost fourteen inches of hair besides
(the left half of my head looked pubic for several
weeks). I just bought a house which will become part
studio and gallery besides, and I really don't want to
tempt fate... I know, very irrational, but nonetheless
true. Other than my fear of supermarkets and fire, I'm
actually fairly normal! Jules
--- Snail Scott wrote:
> At 08:04 AM 3/7/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >...If I do
> >not have access to a natural gas line (I live on an
> >island), does that make my only option propane?
>
>
> Why do you want to avoid propane? -Snail
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
Julie Milazzo on thu 7 mar 02
Hey Hank, thank you for the info, as well as the
website link; that kiln is beautiful! I don't think
that's a work I've ever used in conjunction with a
kiln before. Thank you everyone else who responded so
rapidly. I stopped being a big baby, and called the
gas company. The good news is that I can have natural
gas, the bad news is that it would cost 2.5 million
bucks. Damn, there goes that yacht I was going to get.
No, actually, I'm becoming okay with the propane idea.
It will be outside anyway, and I'm not really that
worried about blowing up anymore. Melting, maybe...
Jules
--- Hank Murrow wrote:
> >Hey everyone, I'm a little confused about my
> options
> >regarding hooking a kiln up to propane or natural
> gas.
> >I've checked on the Clayart archives, but couldn't
> >find an answer to my question, which is this: If I
> do
> >not have access to a natural gas line (I live on an
> >island), does that make my only option propane? Is
> it
> >possible to get a gas tank, like a gas station
> does,
> >or is that yet another type of gas that I can't
> use? I
> >will be firing to cone ten, and am ambivalent about
> >contacting gas companies, as I fear they would tell
> me
> >anything to make a sale. I really, really like my
> >life, and don't want to blow up. I can see the
> >obituary now, "young potter dies from a case of bad
> >gas..." Any help would be great; any help today
> would
> >be fantastic. Thank you! Julie Milazzo
>
>
> Dear Julie;
>
> You are wise to study this with care.
> Natural gas is lighter than
> air, and so will rise. propane is heavier than air
> and so will fall and
> flow to the lowest point. If you allow it to leave
> the building, a small
> leak will not prove dangerous. If it is not allowed
> to leave the enclosure
> of your building, it may collect and if touched off
> by an open flame or
> spark, will explode.
>
> I have installed my kilns
>
(http://www.ceramicsmonthly.org/mustreads/shinofire.asp)
> with both natural
> gas and propane. I have found little difference, one
> being the relative
> lack of water vapor in propane leading to the need
> for a stronger reduction
> atmosphere for the same effect on the glazes, and
> the heavier than air
> requirement. Usually, propane includes a built-in
> odor to facilitate
> awareness of leaks. Propane has more calorific value
> per unit volume than
> Natural gas, so your mixer orifices will need to be
> sized about 2 1/2 times
> smaller.
>
> Good luck, Hank
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
Marvin Bjurlin on thu 7 mar 02
Hello Julie, I am sure that you will get lots of responces to your question, but
here is one from Fredonia: The issue has to do with the orfice (the little hole
the gas goes through into the burner) on the burners of your gas kiln . In your
situation a 500 gal propane tank would be appropriate, but you want to be certain
that whoever built the kiln has provided burners suitable for propane. M.
Julie Milazzo wrote:
> Hey everyone, I'm a little confused about my options
> regarding hooking a kiln up to propane or natural gas.
> I've checked on the Clayart archives, but couldn't
> find an answer to my question, which is this: If I do
> not have access to a natural gas line (I live on an
> island), does that make my only option propane? Is it
> possible to get a gas tank, like a gas station does,
> or is that yet another type of gas that I can't use? I
> will be firing to cone ten, and am ambivalent about
> contacting gas companies, as I fear they would tell me
> anything to make a sale. I really, really like my
> life, and don't want to blow up. I can see the
> obituary now, "young potter dies from a case of bad
> gas..." Any help would be great; any help today would
> be fantastic. Thank you! Julie Milazzo
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Craig Clark on thu 7 mar 02
Julie, according to my source of info for all such matters, my wife Ruth
Kravetz...chemistry teacher extraordinaire, I have
been informed that Propane (C3H8....can't do subscripts sorry) has a molar
mass that is indeed lighter than air. Natural Gas (CH4....with a small
amount of other stuff) has a molar mass that is greater than air. Because of
this the propane will rise and the natural gas will fall. THis all has
something to do with density.
Make sure that there is a goodly amount of ventilation, proper burner
system, and good hard pipe from your fuel source. If you don't want to mess
with the local natural gas provider you will pretty much need to go with
propane, unless you are considering using wood, dung, oil, or some exotic
source.
There is no need to worry about the propane as long as you take the
proper precautions. Contact your local propane dealer and ask them what they
have to offer (tanks, regulator, hose.) If you need to manifold two or more
tanks together they can probably make a manifold type of connection for you
or tell you how to go about doing it.
The greatest danger lies in not having the proper safety system on your
burners, regardless of whether or not you use propane or natural gas.
Contact Mark Ward and speak to him....he knows a lot, has practically
anything that you will need, and is very forthcoming with information. His
business is Ward Burners and he advertises in most issues of ceramics
monthly and the other trade publications.
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
mudman@hal-pc.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie Milazzo"
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: need help with problem gas (haha)
> I'm not sure if it is instinct or experience, but I
> really am afraid of blowing up. I read on the Clayart
> archives that propane is heavier than air, and will
> tend to pool, whereas natural gas is lighter, so it
> would tend to float up. I may very well be one of
> those peopkle who could get hurt with a butter knife,
> but ever since my sophomore year of college, I've been
> really scared of the damage I can do. I blew up my
> face while trying to light a gas fire in the
> fireplace, and lost fourteen inches of hair besides
> (the left half of my head looked pubic for several
> weeks). I just bought a house which will become part
> studio and gallery besides, and I really don't want to
> tempt fate... I know, very irrational, but nonetheless
> true. Other than my fear of supermarkets and fire, I'm
> actually fairly normal! Jules
> --- Snail Scott wrote:
> > At 08:04 AM 3/7/02 -0800, you wrote:
> > >...If I do
> > >not have access to a natural gas line (I live on an
> > >island), does that make my only option propane?
> >
> >
> > Why do you want to avoid propane? -Snail
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change
> > your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> > reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
KLeSueur@AOL.COM on fri 8 mar 02
In a message dated Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:05:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, Craig Clark writes:
I have been informed that Propane (C3H8....can't do subscripts sorry) has a molar mass that is indeed lighter than air. Natural Gas (CH4....with a small amount of other stuff) has a molar mass that is greater than air. Because of this the propane will rise and the natural gas will fall. THis all has something to do with density.>>
I have always heard just the reverse. That propane is heavier than air and thus, a gas leak results in gas hovering around the leak. While natural gas is lighter than air and so dissapates to some extent. Maybe one of our techies can set us all straight.
Kathi LeSueur
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