Jocelyn McAuley on tue 19 mar 02
Dear Earl,
I find it amazingly stunning that you can equate freedom of expression
akin to supporting Nazi era politics. Shame on you.
Earl wrote:
"Perhaps, instead of "dumbing myself down to fit in with society in
general" you might find it refreshing to take a stand for something. TO MANY go along
to get along. Lots of Germans did it in WW2."
Its a shame you can label that which you haven't explored. But then
again, that's how humans work.
You could have simply asked what went on at the Randall Session instead of
decrying it. In no way does one expect everyone to find Waters amusing.
I'm not shaming you for that.
I was fortunate in that I was situated in a part of the audience (front
and center) which was not ashamed in that fact they favorably responded to
Waters' underlying messages and his overt humor. Through humor, Waters
touched on the shadows of our culture- that which has been labeled as
perverse, not worthy of noticing in society, that which has been called
sick and disgusting because it is so different from the norm.
Waters' experience is in calling to question our societal assumtions. He
takes closer looks at characters described as outsiders. He exposes them
as humans, and calls into question the human nature of so-called normal
society types. He also plays off of those little thoughts we have all had
but never dared to say out loud. In effect John Waters challenges the
roles of censors and pushes at the service they fill for society.
It was in the moments of recognizing the "outsider" that Waters sought to
reach the NCECA audience on an artistic level. What could we possibly
share with Waters? We have the potential to be conspirators in
criticizing our consumer culture. We can take those instances of human
nature that no-one will talk about or share and poke at them through our
art, or through our humor as Waters is prone to do.
Given that the Randall session was recorded for broadcast in the other
hotel, I'm hoping that perhaps a transcript may come about in the future?
This wasn't how I intended my NCECA resurfacing post to clayart. Oh well.
Jocelyn
-who had a blast and is disappointed she didn't spend more time in the
Clayart Room.
--
Jocelyn McAuley ><<'> jmcauley@darkwing.uoregon.edu
Eugene, Oregon http://www.ceramicism.com
John Jensen on tue 19 mar 02
Well, Earl, if you didn't go; I don't see how you are in a position to talk
about it. I wouldn't even begin to put the contents of the Randall session
in the categories you mention (perverse, evil, degrading). Like most people
I dumb myself down to fit in with society in general. I don't use what we
might call "coarse language," I don't come very close to politically
incorrect positions in normal polite conversation. I go along to get along,
like most people and I have a tendency to forget that my true self is a bit
less concerned about these conventions. John Waters "got away" with
breaking the normal social boundaries because we let him, yes; and we let
him because he was expressing greater truths in a wholely intertaining
manner. Humour in and of itself doesn't justify a social position. And
though creativity may not always be about pushing limits (I might dispute
this), it must always allow the possibility of going beyond established
limits. In my own estimation creativity only begins when we've pushed
beyond our own limits of mind and spirit and have to let it all begin anew.
(No personal offence taken, nor intended)
John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery, Annapolis
mudbug@toad.net, www.Toadhouse.com
Martin Rice on tue 19 mar 02
Hi, Folks:
For the hundreds of us (I assume) on the list who weren't at the conference,
can someone give us some idea of what Randal session actually did that has
caused such strong feelings, I mean can you give us some examples --
Bowdlerized if needs be.
Thanks,
Martin
Lagunas de Barú, Costa Rica
www.rice-family.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Jensen"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 12:10 PM
Subject: [CLAYART] Randall Session
> Well, Earl, if you didn't go; I don't see how you are in a position to
talk
> about it. I wouldn't even begin to put the contents of the Randall
session
> in the categories you mention (perverse, evil, degrading). Like most
people
> I dumb myself down to fit in with society in general. I don't use what we
> might call "coarse language," I don't come very close to politically
> incorrect positions in normal polite conversation. I go along to get
along,
> like most people and I have a tendency to forget that my true self is a
bit
> less concerned about these conventions. John Waters "got away" with
> breaking the normal social boundaries because we let him, yes; and we let
> him because he was expressing greater truths in a wholely intertaining
> manner. Humour in and of itself doesn't justify a social position. And
> though creativity may not always be about pushing limits (I might dispute
> this), it must always allow the possibility of going beyond established
> limits. In my own estimation creativity only begins when we've pushed
> beyond our own limits of mind and spirit and have to let it all begin
anew.
> (No personal offence taken, nor intended)
> John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery, Annapolis
> mudbug@toad.net, www.Toadhouse.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Earl Brunner on tue 19 mar 02
Well, lets see, do I need to snort manganese dioxide or barium carb to know that I
don't want too? As my mommy used to say, "If Jimmy told you to jump off of a
cliff, would you do it?" Do I need to hang out at the local strip club to
"experience" it before I can have an opinion? Do I need to fill my brain full of
all kinds of garbage before I know that garbage is garbage? I find it curious that
people can be more concerned about what they eat, how they take care of their
bodies, but care so little about what they pour into their heads.
To quote from the NCECA Program, "John Waters has been described as the "Pope of
Trash," the Prince of Puke," the "P.T. Barium of Scatology," the "Sultan of
Sleaze," the "Baron of Bad Taste'" words which for him are the language of love.
He discusses all forms of shock value: the beauty of "good bad taste;" and his
vision of worldwide trashiness in all forms of entertainment. Censorship and
society are hit upon in a unique way that will make you laugh at the absurdity of
what society has deemed right vs. wrong."
To quote yourself,
> But I was shocked all the same. Shocked and amazed that he could get away >with
such excesses in front of an audience of 4000 or so. I was very proud of us >as
potters that we could, as a group rise to the occasion and find the rich vein of
>humour there.
Perhaps, instead of "dumbing myself down to fit in with society in general" you
might find it refreshing to take a stand for something. TO MANY go along to get
along.
Lots of Germans did it in WW2.
I found it curious that you could be very proud.
Ah well, looks like one of those things that we will disagree on.
Be Well.
John Jensen wrote:
> Well, Earl, if you didn't go; I don't see how you are in a position to talk
> about it. I wouldn't even begin to put the contents of the Randall session
> in the categories you mention (perverse, evil, degrading). Like most people
> I dumb myself down to fit in with society in general. I don't use what we
> might call "coarse language," I don't come very close to politically
> incorrect positions in normal polite conversation. I go along to get along,
> like most people and I have a tendency to forget that my true self is a bit
> less concerned about these conventions. John Waters "got away" with
> breaking the normal social boundaries because we let him, yes; and we let
> him because he was expressing greater truths in a wholely intertaining
> manner. Humour in and of itself doesn't justify a social position. And
> though creativity may not always be about pushing limits (I might dispute
> this), it must always allow the possibility of going beyond established
> limits. In my own estimation creativity only begins when we've pushed
> beyond our own limits of mind and spirit and have to let it all begin anew.
> (No personal offence taken, nor intended)
> John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery, Annapolis
> mudbug@toad.net, www.Toadhouse.com
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
claybair on wed 20 mar 02
Earl,
If I recall correctly you live in Las Vegas.... right?
I spent 1 day there about 30 years ago........ I'll take John Waters any day
over Las Vegas!
That NCECA quote describing Waters could easily describe Vegas. ("To quote
from the NCECA Program, "John Waters has been described as the "Pope of
Trash," the Prince of Puke," the "P.T. Barium of Scatology," the "Sultan of
Sleaze," the "Baron of Bad Taste'" words which for him are the language of
love.
He discusses all forms of shock value: the beauty of "good bad taste;" and
his
vision of worldwide trashiness in all forms of entertainment. )
Sorry I'm just seeing a bit of irony here......pot calling the kettle
........... whatever.
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From Earl Brunner
Well, lets see, do I need to snort manganese dioxide or barium carb to know
that I
don't want too? As my mommy used to say, "If Jimmy told you to jump off of
a
cliff, would you do it?" Do I need to hang out at the local strip club to
"experience" it before I can have an opinion? Do I need to fill my brain
full of
all kinds of garbage before I know that garbage is garbage? I find it
curious that
people can be more concerned about what they eat, how they take care of
their
bodies, but care so little about what they pour into their heads.
To quote from the NCECA Program, "John Waters has been described as the
"Pope of
Trash," the Prince of Puke," the "P.T. Barium of Scatology," the "Sultan of
Sleaze," the "Baron of Bad Taste'" words which for him are the language of
love.
He discusses all forms of shock value: the beauty of "good bad taste;" and
his
vision of worldwide trashiness in all forms of entertainment. Censorship
and
society are hit upon in a unique way that will make you laugh at the
absurdity of
what society has deemed right vs. wrong."
To quote yourself,
> But I was shocked all the same. Shocked and amazed that he could get away
>with
such excesses in front of an audience of 4000 or so. I was very proud of us
>as
potters that we could, as a group rise to the occasion and find the rich
vein of
>humour there.
Perhaps, instead of "dumbing myself down to fit in with society in general"
you
might find it refreshing to take a stand for something. TO MANY go along to
get
along.
Lots of Germans did it in WW2.
I found it curious that you could be very proud.
Ah well, looks like one of those things that we will disagree on.
Be Well.
John Jensen wrote:
> Well, Earl, if you didn't go; I don't see how you are in a position to
talk
> about it. I wouldn't even begin to put the contents of the Randall
session
> in the categories you mention (perverse, evil, degrading). Like most
people
> I dumb myself down to fit in with society in general. I don't use what we
> might call "coarse language," I don't come very close to politically
> incorrect positions in normal polite conversation. I go along to get
along,
> like most people and I have a tendency to forget that my true self is a
bit
> less concerned about these conventions. John Waters "got away" with
> breaking the normal social boundaries because we let him, yes; and we let
> him because he was expressing greater truths in a wholely intertaining
> manner. Humour in and of itself doesn't justify a social position. And
> though creativity may not always be about pushing limits (I might dispute
> this), it must always allow the possibility of going beyond established
> limits. In my own estimation creativity only begins when we've pushed
> beyond our own limits of mind and spirit and have to let it all begin
anew.
> (No personal offence taken, nor intended)
> John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery, Annapolis
> mudbug@toad.net, www.Toadhouse.com
>
Michelle Lowe on wed 20 mar 02
I have no problem with folks taking a stand, and I think that is part of
what John Waters has to say, ultimately. I sat near some older members who
obviously were reacting strongly to his baseness. They were free to leave,
but they didn't. I, personally, found his performance at the Randall
Session, and speaking on a panel discussion the next morning about
eroticism and art to be edgy, refreshing, and encouraging for our council
(NCECA), the clay art community and our society in general.
-----------
Michelle Lowe potter in the Phoenix desert
http://www.desertdragonpottery.com
Mishy@desertdragonpottery.com
mishlowe@amug.org
\|/ |
-O- | |
/|\ | | |
|_|_|
____ |
\ /-----|-----
( )
<__>
bruec@anv.net on wed 20 mar 02
A couple of things.
The Vegas of today bares little resemblance to the Vegas of 30 years ago. People who live here do not necessarily partak=
e. (of whatever)
What is available in Las Vegas is available in just about any city anywhere.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: claybair gayle@CLAYBAIR.COM
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:15:21 -0800
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Randall Session
Earl,
If I recall correctly you live in Las Vegas.... right?
I spent 1 day there about 30 years ago........ I'll take John Waters any day
over Las Vegas!
That NCECA quote describing Waters could easily describe Vegas. ("To quote
from the NCECA Program, "John Waters has been described as the "Pope of
Trash," the Prince of Puke," the "P.T. Barium of Scatology," the "Sultan of
Sleaze," the "Baron of Bad Taste'" words which for him are the language of
love.
He discusses all forms of shock value: the beauty of "good bad taste;" and
his
vision of worldwide trashiness in all forms of entertainment. )
Sorry I'm just seeing a bit of irony here......pot calling the kettle
.......... whatever.
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From Earl Brunner
Well, lets see, do I need to snort manganese dioxide or barium carb to know
that I
don't want too? As my mommy used to say, "If Jimmy told you to jump off of
a
cliff, would you do it?" Do I need to hang out at the local strip club to
"experience" it before I can have an opinion? Do I need to fill my brain
full of
all kinds of garbage before I know that garbage is garbage? I find it
curious that
people can be more concerned about what they eat, how they take care of
their
bodies, but care so little about what they pour into their heads.
To quote from the NCECA Program, "John Waters has been described as the
"Pope of
Trash," the Prince of Puke," the "P.T. Barium of Scatology," the "Sultan of
Sleaze," the "Baron of Bad Taste'" words which for him are the language of
love.
He discusses all forms of shock value: the beauty of "good bad taste;" and
his
vision of worldwide trashiness in all forms of entertainment. Censorship
and
society are hit upon in a unique way that will make you laugh at the
absurdity of
what society has deemed right vs. wrong."
To quote yourself,
> But I was shocked all the same. Shocked and amazed that he could get away
>with
such excesses in front of an audience of 4000 or so. I was very proud of us
>as
potters that we could, as a group rise to the occasion and find the rich
vein of
>humour there.
Perhaps, instead of "dumbing myself down to fit in with society in general"
you
might find it refreshing to take a stand for something. TO MANY go along to
get
along.
Lots of Germans did it in WW2.
I found it curious that you could be very proud.
Ah well, looks like one of those things that we will disagree on.
Be Well.
John Jensen wrote:
> Well, Earl, if you didn't go; I don't see how you are in a position to
talk
> about it. I wouldn't even begin to put the contents of the Randall
session
> in the categories you mention (perverse, evil, degrading). Like most
people
> I dumb myself down to fit in with society in general. I don't use what we
> might call "coarse language," I don't come very close to politically
> incorrect positions in normal polite conversation. I go along to get
along,
> like most people and I have a tendency to forget that my true self is a
bit
> less concerned about these conventions. John Waters "got away" with
> breaking the normal social boundaries because we let him, yes; and we let
> him because he was expressing greater truths in a wholely intertaining
> manner. Humour in and of itself doesn't justify a social position. And
> though creativity may not always be about pushing limits (I might dispute
> this), it must always allow the possibility of going beyond established
> limits. In my own estimation creativity only begins when we've pushed
> beyond our own limits of mind and spirit and have to let it all begin
anew.
> (No personal offence taken, nor intended)
> John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery, Annapolis
> mudbug@toad.net, www.Toadhouse.com
>
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .
bruec@anv.net on wed 20 mar 02
You can read in what ever you want I guess. I said nothing about the freedom of expression in that post, I did say somet=
hing about someones response to that freedom of expression, WHICH IS MY FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.
I was equating the quote from another person, he said that he "went along to get along".
Nope, don't feel any shame. It IS the same mind set. If that makes you uncomfortable, sorry.
I didn't label the work, he labeled himself (or NCECA did). I formed my opinion based on the label.
I'll pass on the Singing Anuses thank you very much.
"Its a shame you can label that which you haven't explored. But then
again, that's how humans work."
Going along to get along is also how humans work.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Jocelyn McAuley jmcauley@DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:10:57 -0800
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Randall Session
Dear Earl,
I find it amazingly stunning that you can equate freedom of expression
akin to supporting Nazi era politics. Shame on you.
Earl wrote:
"Perhaps, instead of "dumbing myself down to fit in with society in
general" you might find it refreshing to take a stand for something. TO MANY go along
to get along. Lots of Germans did it in WW2."
Its a shame you can label that which you haven't explored. But then
again, that's how humans work.
You could have simply asked what went on at the Randall Session instead of
decrying it. In no way does one expect everyone to find Waters amusing.
I'm not shaming you for that.
I was fortunate in that I was situated in a part of the audience (front
and center) which was not ashamed in that fact they favorably responded to
Waters' underlying messages and his overt humor. Through humor, Waters
touched on the shadows of our culture- that which has been labeled as
perverse, not worthy of noticing in society, that which has been called
sick and disgusting because it is so different from the norm.
Waters' experience is in calling to question our societal assumtions. He
takes closer looks at characters described as outsiders. He exposes them
as humans, and calls into question the human nature of so-called normal
society types. He also plays off of those little thoughts we have all had
but never dared to say out loud. In effect John Waters challenges the
roles of censors and pushes at the service they fill for society.
It was in the moments of recognizing the "outsider" that Waters sought to
reach the NCECA audience on an artistic level. What could we possibly
share with Waters? We have the potential to be conspirators in
criticizing our consumer culture. We can take those instances of human
nature that no-one will talk about or share and poke at them through our
art, or through our humor as Waters is prone to do.
Given that the Randall session was recorded for broadcast in the other
hotel, I'm hoping that perhaps a transcript may come about in the future?
This wasn't how I intended my NCECA resurfacing post to clayart. Oh well.
Jocelyn
-who had a blast and is disappointed she didn't spend more time in the
Clayart Room.
--
Jocelyn McAuley ><<'> jmcauley@darkwing.uoregon.edu
Eugene, Oregon http://www.ceramicism.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .
Janet Kaiser on thu 21 mar 02
A John Waters was a Post Grad at Chester College back in 1976-7... Was
this John Waters originally from London? It would be a gas if it was
the same one.
And contrary to Bruce, I have been having trouble with the
technicalities of filming a singing anus ever since I read the post. I
did not get past trying to work out how to make one sing!? I nearly
fell off my chair laughing at the very thought! You must know in a
German speaking household, where lentils form a major part of the
diet, there is an expression which refers to Linsen (lentils) causing
Grinsen (grinning) for this part of the anatomy... But SINGING? Will
have to find something to rhyme...
I suspect that all the shock-horror experienced by some of the
audience at NCECA would be pretty tame in our bawdy, untamed
Anglo-Saxon culture... An awful lot of us have not grown out our
adolescent funny bones...
Thanks for the laugh.
Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art / Capel Celfyddyd
Home of The International Potters' Path
8 Marine Crescent : Criccieth : GB-Wales
URL: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
postbox@the-coa.org.uk
>> I'll pass on the Singing Anuses thank you very much. <<
John Baymore on thu 21 mar 02
In the NCECA program schedule, like everything else, the Randall Session
was listed with a short bio on John Waters AND ........what the program
focus was to be was included there.
Anyone who looked at that written introduction should not have been
surprised in the slightest as to the nature of the presentation he did.
With that information, just like any of the NCECA presentations or
exhibitions...... you either decided to go.....or you did not.
Best,
..............................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JohnBaymore.com
JBaymore@compuserve.com
"DATES SET: Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop =
August 16-25, 2002"
Michelle Lowe on fri 22 nov 02
I have no problem with folks taking a stand, and I think that is part of
what John Waters has to say, ultimately. I sat near some older members who
obviously were reacting strongly to his baseness. They were free to leave,
but they didn't. I, personally, found his performance at the Randall
Session, and speaking on a panel discussion the next morning about
eroticism and art to be edgy, refreshing,
vince pitelka on fri 22 nov 02
> I have no problem with folks taking a stand, and I think that is part of
> what John Waters has to say, ultimately. I sat near some older members who
> obviously were reacting strongly to his baseness. They were free to leave,
> but they didn't. I, personally, found his performance at the Randall
> Session, and speaking on a panel discussion the next morning about
> eroticism and art to be edgy, refreshing,
I thought John Waters's Randall Session was great, and I fully support
controversial presenters at NCECA. We need to get shook up in our lives.
If nothing ever pisses us off, then we are living a boring, mundane
existence. I enjoyed John Waters's talk, but I want to point out that there
is nothing at all wrong with taking offense to such a thing. It provides
context for personal decision making and moral judgment. But it is WRONG to
imply that presenters like John Waters should be silenced because someone is
offended by their narrative. That would imply a terribly closed-minded,
limited existence, and I would hope for much better for anyone.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
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