Sandra Henderson on fri 29 mar 02
Hi, everyone -- I have been puzzling over why a ^9 cone in the sitter
falls when the witness cones in my kiln have only reached ^6 (in a slow
firing). (I don't have a pyrometer, yet.) An earlier post about the edges
of the kiln being hotter than the center gave me one clue. Now I am
wondering if my sitter needs adjusting: how would I know that? Is there a
manual for the Dawson cone sitter?
Thanks,
Sandy Henderson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arnold Howard"
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: Kiln firing and water heater
> Corinna, the prongs you refer to are part of the Dawson Kiln
> Sitter.
>
> You should not fire your kiln until you have read detailed
> instructions on the Dawson Kiln Sitter. You need to know how to
> calibrate it with a firing gauge, how to load it with the small
> cone, and how to adjust it. It is a very simple, reliable device
> that shuts the kiln off when the small cone bends. But if used
> improperly, it can overfire your kiln.
>
> Misunderstanding the Kiln Sitter has caused a lot of frustration.
> One time a customer wanted me to fly to her home in North Carolina
> to pick up her kiln and take it back. The problem was only a Kiln
> Sitter out of adjustment. Another customer thought her heating
> elements were bad. Again, it was only a Kiln Sitter with a bent
> rod.
__________________________________________________
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Earl Brunner on sat 30 mar 02
I understand how the small cones or bars are used. Are you saying then that Orton
factors in the pressure applied to the small cone in a setter into the melt
temperature?
i.e. the cone has pressure applied so it melts at a higher temperature to offset
the pressure, causing the small cones to bend or melt at the same time as the
larger optical cones? In other words, a small cone in a setter is supposed to be
equivalent to the larger optical cone, even though it "melts" at a higher
temperature?
I'm confused now.
Bill Arnold wrote:
> This is because small cones were designed to go in kiln sitters where a
> weight is applied to bend them. They are not designed to be sighting cones.
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Earl Brunner"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 12:50 PM
> Subject: Re: kiln sitter -- is this normal?
>
> > Even though the large and small cones (or bars) have the same number they
> do not
> > bend at the same temperature. That is one factor that you need to
> consider along
> > with the others. According to the charts, there appears to be approx. a
> one cone
> > difference with the small cones bending at a higher temperature.
> >
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Dave Gayman on sat 30 mar 02
Manuals are on-line at http://www.kiln-sitter.com/support.html Click
Documents button and choose your model.
>Is there a
>manual for the Dawson cone sitter?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Sandy Henderson
Patrick Rowe on sat 30 mar 02
Most klins comes with a die to adjust the sitter. You can also get one from
your local clay supplier. The die comes with a small allen wrench and
usually has the instructions for making the adjustment. Basically you place
the die over the cone rests and sensing rod. Loosen the adjusting nut on
the counterweight. On the counterweight is a metal strip which slides up
and down once the nut is released. Adjust it up or down until it just
clears the hook that holds the counterweight in place. retighten the nut.
I have had cones break in the kiln sitter before reaching temperature. I
think that moiture can damage them. Although I don't know that for sure.
So you might buy a new box of cones.
Patrick
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Sandra Henderson
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 10:46 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: kiln sitter -- is this normal?
Hi, everyone -- I have been puzzling over why a ^9 cone in the sitter
falls when the witness cones in my kiln have only reached ^6 (in a slow
firing). (I don't have a pyrometer, yet.) An earlier post about the edges
of the kiln being hotter than the center gave me one clue. Now I am
wondering if my sitter needs adjusting: how would I know that? Is there a
manual for the Dawson cone sitter?
Thanks,
Sandy Henderson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arnold Howard"
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: Kiln firing and water heater
> Corinna, the prongs you refer to are part of the Dawson Kiln
> Sitter.
>
> You should not fire your kiln until you have read detailed
> instructions on the Dawson Kiln Sitter. You need to know how to
> calibrate it with a firing gauge, how to load it with the small
> cone, and how to adjust it. It is a very simple, reliable device
> that shuts the kiln off when the small cone bends. But if used
> improperly, it can overfire your kiln.
>
> Misunderstanding the Kiln Sitter has caused a lot of frustration.
> One time a customer wanted me to fly to her home in North Carolina
> to pick up her kiln and take it back. The problem was only a Kiln
> Sitter out of adjustment. Another customer thought her heating
> elements were bad. Again, it was only a Kiln Sitter with a bent
> rod.
__________________________________________________
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____________________________________________________________________________
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Earl Brunner on sat 30 mar 02
Even though the large and small cones (or bars) have the same number they do not
bend at the same temperature. That is one factor that you need to consider along
with the others. According to the charts, there appears to be approx. a one cone
difference with the small cones bending at a higher temperature.
If I understand it correctly, cone numbers have to do with the empirical formula
and incremental changes in the formula more than what temperature that they melt
at. It always seemed to me that it would make more sense to potters if the numbers
were adjusted so that big cones and little cones (or bars) represented the same
"heat work" or temperature. Often when you buy commercial glazes the instructions
don't differentiate.
Sandra Henderson wrote:
> Hi, everyone -- I have been puzzling over why a ^9 cone in the sitter
> falls when the witness cones in my kiln have only reached ^6 (in a slow
> firing). (I don't have a pyrometer, yet.) An earlier post about the edges
> of the kiln being hotter than the center gave me one clue. Now I am
> wondering if my sitter needs adjusting: how would I know that? Is there a
> manual for the Dawson cone sitter?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sandy Henderson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arnold Howard"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 5:58 AM
> Subject: Re: Kiln firing and water heater
>
> > Corinna, the prongs you refer to are part of the Dawson Kiln
> > Sitter.
> >
> > You should not fire your kiln until you have read detailed
> > instructions on the Dawson Kiln Sitter. You need to know how to
> > calibrate it with a firing gauge, how to load it with the small
> > cone, and how to adjust it. It is a very simple, reliable device
> > that shuts the kiln off when the small cone bends. But if used
> > improperly, it can overfire your kiln.
> >
> > Misunderstanding the Kiln Sitter has caused a lot of frustration.
> > One time a customer wanted me to fly to her home in North Carolina
> > to pick up her kiln and take it back. The problem was only a Kiln
> > Sitter out of adjustment. Another customer thought her heating
> > elements were bad. Again, it was only a Kiln Sitter with a bent
> > rod.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
> http://greetings.yahoo.com/
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Bill Arnold on sat 30 mar 02
This is because small cones were designed to go in kiln sitters where a
weight is applied to bend them. They are not designed to be sighting cones.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl Brunner"
To:
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: kiln sitter -- is this normal?
> Even though the large and small cones (or bars) have the same number they
do not
> bend at the same temperature. That is one factor that you need to
consider along
> with the others. According to the charts, there appears to be approx. a
one cone
> difference with the small cones bending at a higher temperature.
>
> If I understand it correctly, cone numbers have to do with the empirical
formula
> and incremental changes in the formula more than what temperature that
they melt
> at. It always seemed to me that it would make more sense to potters if
the numbers
> were adjusted so that big cones and little cones (or bars) represented the
same
> "heat work" or temperature. Often when you buy commercial glazes the
instructions
> don't differentiate.
>
> Sandra Henderson wrote:
>
> > Hi, everyone -- I have been puzzling over why a ^9 cone in the sitter
> > falls when the witness cones in my kiln have only reached ^6 (in a slow
> > firing). (I don't have a pyrometer, yet.) An earlier post about the
edges
> > of the kiln being hotter than the center gave me one clue. Now I am
> > wondering if my sitter needs adjusting: how would I know that? Is there
a
> > manual for the Dawson cone sitter?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Sandy Henderson
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Arnold Howard"
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 5:58 AM
> > Subject: Re: Kiln firing and water heater
> >
> > > Corinna, the prongs you refer to are part of the Dawson Kiln
> > > Sitter.
> > >
> > > You should not fire your kiln until you have read detailed
> > > instructions on the Dawson Kiln Sitter. You need to know how to
> > > calibrate it with a firing gauge, how to load it with the small
> > > cone, and how to adjust it. It is a very simple, reliable device
> > > that shuts the kiln off when the small cone bends. But if used
> > > improperly, it can overfire your kiln.
> > >
> > > Misunderstanding the Kiln Sitter has caused a lot of frustration.
> > > One time a customer wanted me to fly to her home in North Carolina
> > > to pick up her kiln and take it back. The problem was only a Kiln
> > > Sitter out of adjustment. Another customer thought her heating
> > > elements were bad. Again, it was only a Kiln Sitter with a bent
> > > rod.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
> > http://greetings.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
> --
> Earl Brunner
> http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
> mailto:bruec@anv.net
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
> **************************************************************
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Bill Arnold on sun 31 mar 02
I will try to make this as simple as possible. If the cone stands alone it
(the small cone ) it will bend at a higher temperature than an equivalent
large cone. If a weight is added,it (the small cone) will bend at
approximately the same temperature as a free standing large cone. This was
explained to me by a technical service representative at Orton when I called
and asked this very question about 25 yrs ago. It is possible by adjusting
the blade on the trip mechanism of the kiln sitter to get these to match
almost perfectly. Clear?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl Brunner"
To:
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: kiln sitter -- is this normal?
> I understand how the small cones or bars are used. Are you saying then
that Orton
> factors in the pressure applied to the small cone in a setter into the
melt
> temperature?
> i.e. the cone has pressure applied so it melts at a higher temperature to
offset
> the pressure, causing the small cones to bend or melt at the same time as
the
> larger optical cones? In other words, a small cone in a setter is
supposed to be
> equivalent to the larger optical cone, even though it "melts" at a higher
> temperature?
>
> I'm confused now.
>
> Bill Arnold wrote:
>
> > This is because small cones were designed to go in kiln sitters where a
> > weight is applied to bend them. They are not designed to be sighting
cones.
> > Bill
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Earl Brunner"
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 12:50 PM
> > Subject: Re: kiln sitter -- is this normal?
> >
> > > Even though the large and small cones (or bars) have the same number
they
> > do not
> > > bend at the same temperature. That is one factor that you need to
> > consider along
> > > with the others. According to the charts, there appears to be approx.
a
> > one cone
> > > difference with the small cones bending at a higher temperature.
> > >
>
> --
> Earl Brunner
> http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
> mailto:bruec@anv.net
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
> **************************************************************
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Craig Martell on sun 31 mar 02
Hi:
There's been some good advice given in response to this question. I'd like
to venture a personal opinion about firing electric kilns.
Shut off devices of any sort are looked upon as a "convienience" in our
studio. I'm talking mainly about timers and sitters. I don't trust either
of these devices to function as they should in any case. I don't use a
controller, but my wife does with her glass kiln. It does a fine job but
we still watch the kiln and monitor the firings by eye and our own sense of
timing from previous fires.
To determine the end point of the firing, I use large standing cones in the
kiln and a digital pyrometer to monitor the climb and cooling rate. I do
this for bisque firings mainly. When my wife still made pots she glazed in
the electrics and we did this for her fires to cone 10 and cone 6. I
bisque to cone 03 and I use 03 Orton cones in the sitter. Sometimes they
break in half and shut the kiln down early. When I hear the sitter drop, I
check the large cones in the kiln and the pyro. If I'm short on the heat
work, I raise the sitter weight, turn the kiln back on, and lower the
weight slowly to avoid shutdown. Then I watch the pyro and interior cones
until I reach temp.
My point? You can dink around, ad nauseum, calibrating sitters but the
bottom line is you have to be there on the spot checking things out with
your own eyeballs if you want your firings to be completed successfully.
regards, Craig Martell in Oregon
DEBBYGrant@AOL.COM on sun 31 mar 02
Dear Craig,
You are so right about always eyeballing the end of a firing. I trusted a
kiln sitter once, went out to dinner with friends and came back to a badly
overfired kiln because the rod in the kiln sitter needed replacing and had
fused to the cone. I never trust the kiln sitter. It is only a safety
device.
Debby Grant in NH
Earl Brunner on sun 31 mar 02
Good, that's what I hoped you were saying. And it would make sense. I think that
it is unfortunate then that in books (any of them that I've seen) where they report
the melting temperatures of the cones that they don't explain that.
Bill Arnold wrote:
> I will try to make this as simple as possible. If the cone stands alone it
> (the small cone ) it will bend at a higher temperature than an equivalent
> large cone. If a weight is added,it (the small cone) will bend at
> approximately the same temperature as a free standing large cone. This was
> explained to me by a technical service representative at Orton when I called
> and asked this very question about 25 yrs ago. It is possible by adjusting
> the blade on the trip mechanism of the kiln sitter to get these to match
> almost perfectly. Clear?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Earl Brunner"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 9:08 PM
> Subject: Re: kiln sitter -- is this normal?
>
> > I understand how the small cones or bars are used. Are you saying then
> that Orton
> > factors in the pressure applied to the small cone in a setter into the
> melt
> > temperature?
> > i.e. the cone has pressure applied so it melts at a higher temperature to
> offset
> > the pressure, causing the small cones to bend or melt at the same time as
> the
> > larger optical cones? In other words, a small cone in a setter is
> supposed to be
> > equivalent to the larger optical cone, even though it "melts" at a higher
> > temperature?
> >
> > I'm confused now.
> >
> > Bill Arnold wrote:
> >
> > > This is because small cones were designed to go in kiln sitters where a
> > > weight is applied to bend them. They are not designed to be sighting
> cones.
> > > Bill
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Earl Brunner"
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 12:50 PM
> > > Subject: Re: kiln sitter -- is this normal?
> > >
> > > > Even though the large and small cones (or bars) have the same number
> they
> > > do not
> > > > bend at the same temperature. That is one factor that you need to
> > > consider along
> > > > with the others. According to the charts, there appears to be approx.
> a
> > > one cone
> > > > difference with the small cones bending at a higher temperature.
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > Earl Brunner
> > http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
> > mailto:bruec@anv.net
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
> >
> > **************************************************************
> > Scanned by eScan Content-Security and Anti-Virus Software.
> > Visit http://www.mwti.net for more info on eScan and MailScan.
> > **************************************************************
> >
>
> **************************************************************
> Scanned by eScan Content-Security and Anti-Virus Software.
> Visit http://www.mwti.net for more info on eScan and MailScan.
> **************************************************************
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Paul Herman on mon 1 apr 02
Vince,
Have you tried some dry lubricant (graphite pencil) on the little hook
that's supposed to drop the shutoff lever? It sounds like it may be
hanging up from the slight amount of friction between hook and lever.
Best wishes,
Hardway
----------
>From: vince pitelka
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: kiln sitter -- is this normal?
>Date: Mon, Apr 1, 2002, 5:56 PM
>
> The rod moves perfectly freely when
> you pick it up and drop it, and there simply is nothing that could interfere
> with its movement. But the fact is that at least three times that sensing
> rod has simply remained poised in mid air when the cone sagged beneath it
potterybydai on mon 1 apr 02
Hi, Vince - Re: the non-falling sitter that just hangs there after the rod
has dropped---if you move the "L"-shaped hook at the outside end of the rod
OUT a little farther (tiny set-screw to loosen it, I think) the weight
should drop fine. I found that when the hook was too close to the kiln, the
weight didn't lean out enough to drop when the hook released it. Perfect
balance, wouldn't you know it! If you TRIED to get it to stand up all on
its own, it wouldn't do it!
Dai in Kelowna, BC
potterybydai@shaw.ca
Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you
respond to it.
Craig Martell on mon 1 apr 02
Debby sez:
>I trusted a kiln sitter once, went out to dinner with friends and came
>back to a badly
>overfired kiln because the rod in the kiln sitter needed replacing and had
>fused to the cone.
Hello Debby:
I know a number of potters who have, at one time or another, overfired an
electric because they trusted the sitter and there was a malfunction. You
can include me in this group.
regards, Craig Martell in Oregon
vince pitelka on mon 1 apr 02
> I know a number of potters who have, at one time or another, overfired an
> electric because they trusted the sitter and there was a malfunction. You
> can include me in this group.
Craig and others -
I have certainly changed my mine on trusting the kiln sitter. For twenty
years I was a staunch proponent of the kiln sitter, and claimed that they
were foolproof and that all the kiln accidents were due to human error. We
had a complete meltdown of a nice little Paragon at UMass because someone
left a welding glove on top of the kiln, hanging over the edge in front of
the kiln sitter lever. That was the only meltdown I had witnessed, and
during my six years at UMass we fired those three toploaders thousands of
times. During my three years in North Dakota we only had two toploader
electrics, and a little gas raku kiln, so the electrics were heavily used.
Again, no problems at all. For my first six years in Tennessee we only had
a few anomalies in an otherwise perfect record for the kiln sitters on four
toploaders.
But over the last eighteen months, we have had so many strange over-fires
that it is positively freaky. A single student has had three or four bisque
firings overfire. In some cases, the sensing rod has simply remained poised
in mid air while the cone melts away from beneath. This is on a kiln that
is perfectly adjusted. First time it happened I traced it to debris in the
porcelain sensing tube, so I replaced it with a new tube and rod, and
adjusted it exactly to specifications. The rod moves perfectly freely when
you pick it up and drop it, and there simply is nothing that could interfere
with its movement. But the fact is that at least three times that sensing
rod has simply remained poised in mid air when the cone sagged beneath it.
These have all been bisque firings, and I have made sure that my students
were there, monitoring the temperature with a digital pyrometer. Last time
the kiln failed to shut off, the student came and got me when the pyrometer
read 1800F (we usually bisque to cone 08 - 1750F). I got down on my knees
and just blew hard on the shutoff lever, and it dropped. I do not have a
clue what could have been holding that sensing rod in mid air. It just
doesn't make any sense. I have ordered two new porcelain tube/sensing rod
assemblies, but it seems strange to change it again when the existing one is
almost new.
Last summer we bought a nice little test kiln (can't remember which brand -
I'll check at school tomorrow). On that kiln sitter, the sensing rod always
lowers when the cone sags, but sometimes the lever on the outside does not
fall. It simply remains poised in the upper position, with nothing visibly
holding it there. Again, if we discover it in that state, and someone blows
on the lever, it immediately falls. When the kiln is cool you can raise the
lever up to its maximum position and let go, and it falls forcefully. The
kiln is on a sturdy, absolutely level surface. This just does not make any
sense at all.
I am about to give up entirely on the Dawson Kiln Sitter. This is WAAAAAAY
too many screw-ups in a short period of time.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Snail Scott on tue 2 apr 02
At 07:56 PM 4/1/02 -0600, Vince wrote:
>I have certainly changed my mine on trusting the kiln sitter...
>In some cases, the sensing rod has simply remained poised
>in mid air while the cone melts away from beneath...
>On [another] kiln sitter, the sensing rod always
>lowers when the cone sags, but sometimes the lever on the outside does not
>fall. It simply remains poised in the upper position, with nothing visibly
>holding it there.
I have seen similar things happed with kilns that
weren't perfectly levelled. Front-to-back doesn't
really matter, but it need to be level along the
axis of the sitter (usually side-to-side).
If the kiln tilts toward the side with the sitter,
there seems to be extra friction as the weight of
the deadfall flap 'leans against' the hook.
If the kiln tilts the other way, the center of mass
on the deadfall flap is not beyond its pivot point,
and so can't overbalance and fall then the hook lifts.
You've probably already checked the level on the kilns,
but even if they were level when installed, floors can
warp over time; especially wood, but even concrete can
heave a bit depending on the quality of construction.
-Snail
Snail Scott on tue 2 apr 02
Oops! I missed a typo that somewhat obscured the
intent of my previous post...here's a corrected
excerpt, for anyone whom I may have confused!
>If the kiln tilts toward the side with the sitter,
>there seems to be extra friction as the weight of
>the deadfall flap 'leans against' the hook.
>
>If the kiln tilts the other way, the center of mass
>on the deadfall flap is not beyond its pivot point,
>and so can't overbalance and fall when the hook lifts.
>
> -Snail
Clay Coordinator on tue 2 apr 02
I don't want to bore you with stories about kiln sitters. It would take
days. It is always the best stuff that gets ruined too.
Just be sure to always use witness cones! The sitter is only a safety as is
the timer. (And if you always wind the timer to 20 hours it is essentially
useless.)
Kilns should never be fired unattended.
Thanks,
John Britt
Penland Clay
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