Nanci Bishof on thu 4 apr 02
I find it amazing that not one person on this list has ever managed to have a
positive experience within public education. Somehow, it seems every last one
of you has been terribly scared in that torturous, unkind, mediocre,
unbending excuse of an exercise in the elevation of the pursuit of knowledge
to prepare you for your lives as adults. Every teacher, other than mel, has
been a miserable excuse for a human being with no control over their tempers,
no imagination, unable to cope with differing learning styles, personalities
or temperaments. Its amazing to think you've had the tolerance to allow those
miserable excuses for human being to continue to contaminate the air you
breathe. How unfortunate, that a teacher with 35-50 kids in a class should
need individual students to be capable of controlling their own behavior
rather than catering to an individual's attention seeking behaviors, could it
be the child doesn't get that at home, to the sacrifice of the other 34-49
other kids that is there to learn. We outlaw an individual's right to yell
fire in a crowded theatre because it endangers those other occupants of that
theatre. Yet, somehow the right of the child to endanger the future of their
classmates by limiting their education doesn't come into play in your minds.
Yes, if you have a class of from 1 to 5 students, there is far less
distraction and far more latitude you can provide to those students than when
you have 35-50. And yes, just how many parents put the time or energy into
helping their child by making sure they have done their studying or homework,
encourage them to be respectful and behave appropriately to support the
rights of the other students or even provide them with the basics of pencil
and paper and make sure they have it with them every day so they can do their
work at school? How many parents insure their child eats breakfast, gets a
good nights sleep so that they aren't sleep deprived and unable to maintain
attention or appropriate behavior? How many parents don't cave to the child's
tantrums to dress like sluts on a street corner or dope dealers? Parents that
homeschool usually do so because they have an abiding interest in their
children and support the child's acquisition of knowledge. That parents is
far too few and far apart today. But go ahead, keep on bashing educators with
your broad brush of disdain and ignorance.
nanci
a public school art teacher and math tutor
Sorry, but this isn't a post I'm going to sit on to cool down before sending.
Howard Scoggins on thu 4 apr 02
Atta way to go, Nanci! I'm not a public school teacher, never was. But =
the one-sided tirades of Bad Teachers, Bad Schools is getting to =
the-beyond-silly stage.
I had a few good teachers in mostly poor and understaffed schools. Those =
two or three wonderful teachers gave me enough guidance to last a life =
time.=20
What I interpret in the ranting is the same old right-wing crap: "I got =
a complaint and YOU do something about it!" Education is OUR problem and =
if it is fixed WE will have to do it.
You said it well, Nanci. Thanks.=20
Marcia Selsor on thu 4 apr 02
Nanci
I did have some good experiences in public school.I had a 4th grade teacher who
let me draw all day in the pack of the class and then decorated the room with my
large pastels of invented birds. (I was a notorious bird watcher staring out the
windows.)
It was the classes with 48 students in them when I was taken off the main track
oddly with kids in the close alphabetical range...selsor, thorton, thomas. Those
of us way in the back of the room were put into a "retared classroom" as it was
called in those days but it was more for behavioural problems..difficult kids.
I developed an auditory memory which was discovered by my Psych Professor in
college.
As for public schools, most of my family work in public schools or serve on school
boards.
It is a tough job with little support often. I admire teachers. But not all are
capable as is true about any profession. Administrators also have a proportion os
good ones and bad ones.
I have frends with kids in public school now where ridalin is dispensed for the
first 1/2 of the day. I think this is scary. This is the trend to control anyone
who is a little more difficult han the mob.There are many reasons for this as you
mention.
Marcia Selsor
Billings, Montana
Nanci Bishof wrote:
> I find it amazing that not one person on this list has ever managed to have a
> positive experience within public education.SNIP
> Yes, if you have a class of from 1 to 5 students, there is far less
> distraction and far more latitude you can provide to those students than when
> you have 35-50. And yes, just how many parents put the time or energy into
> helping their child by making sure they have done their studying or homework,
> encourage them to be respectful and behave appropriately to support the
> rights of the other students or even provide them with the basics of pencil
> and paper and make sure they have it with them every day so they can do their
> work at school? nanci
> a public school art teacher and math tutor
>
> Sorry, but this isn't a post I'm going to sit on to cool down before sending.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Bob Pulley on thu 4 apr 02
I agree. If you think schools are overcrowded and are not attracting
the best teachers and are letting down students then lets allow each
parent to apply their tax money to private schools and take that money
away from public education.
I don't know about you, but I want as much of the populace as well
educated as possible. I'm sure there are poor schools, poor educators
and poor practices. These are not evenly spread around. My experience
as a public school teacher and as an ex student is that the vast
majority of public school teachers are intelligent, dedicated, caring
and very hard working.
Bob PUlley
David Hendley on thu 4 apr 02
I have not much good to say about public schools, or private
schools, for that matter.
But I think most all teachers are doing their best at a near-
impossible job and deserve our thanks.
On Clayart, I've read bashing of the system, not the teachers.
Teachers are left with the job when parents refuse to raise
their children. How can they ever be successful at that.
Meanwhile, the sooner society is 'de-schooled' the better.
Children learn naturally. They are not 'taught', just 'facilitated'.
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
hendley@tyler.net
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nanci Bishof"
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 7:15 AM
Subject: Education Rant
> I find it amazing that not one person on this list has ever managed to
have a
> positive experience within public education. Somehow, it seems every last
one
> of you has been terribly scared in that torturous, unkind, mediocre,
> unbending excuse of an exercise in the elevation of the pursuit of
knowledge
> to prepare you for your lives as adults. Every teacher, other than mel,
has
> been a miserable excuse for a human being with no control over their
tempers,
> no imagination, unable to cope with differing learning styles,
personalities
> or temperaments. Its amazing to think you've had the tolerance to allow
those
> miserable excuses for human being to continue to contaminate the air you
> breathe. How unfortunate, that a teacher with 35-50 kids in a class should
> need individual students to be capable of controlling their own behavior
> rather than catering to an individual's attention seeking behaviors, could
it
> be the child doesn't get that at home, to the sacrifice of the other 34-49
> other kids that is there to learn. We outlaw an individual's right to yell
> fire in a crowded theatre because it endangers those other occupants of
that
> theatre. Yet, somehow the right of the child to endanger the future of
their
> classmates by limiting their education doesn't come into play in your
minds.
> Yes, if you have a class of from 1 to 5 students, there is far less
> distraction and far more latitude you can provide to those students than
when
> you have 35-50. And yes, just how many parents put the time or energy into
> helping their child by making sure they have done their studying or
homework,
> encourage them to be respectful and behave appropriately to support the
> rights of the other students or even provide them with the basics of
pencil
> and paper and make sure they have it with them every day so they can do
their
> work at school? How many parents insure their child eats breakfast, gets a
> good nights sleep so that they aren't sleep deprived and unable to
maintain
> attention or appropriate behavior? How many parents don't cave to the
child's
> tantrums to dress like sluts on a street corner or dope dealers? Parents
that
> homeschool usually do so because they have an abiding interest in their
> children and support the child's acquisition of knowledge. That parents is
> far too few and far apart today. But go ahead, keep on bashing educators
with
> your broad brush of disdain and ignorance.
>
> nanci
> a public school art teacher and math tutor
>
> Sorry, but this isn't a post I'm going to sit on to cool down before
sending.
>
Philip Poburka on thu 4 apr 02
Dear David,
Better put maybe than my missives!
Quite so...
Phil
Las Vegas...
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Hendley"
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: Education Rant
> I have not much good to say about public schools, or private
> schools, for that matter.
> But I think most all teachers are doing their best at a near-
> impossible job and deserve our thanks.
> On Clayart, I've read bashing of the system, not the teachers.
> Teachers are left with the job when parents refuse to raise
> their children. How can they ever be successful at that.
> Meanwhile, the sooner society is 'de-schooled' the better.
> Children learn naturally. They are not 'taught', just 'facilitated'.
>
>
> David Hendley
> Maydelle, Texas
> hendley@tyler.net
> http://www.farmpots.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nanci Bishof"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 7:15 AM
> Subject: Education Rant
>
>
> > I find it amazing that not one person on this list has ever managed to
> have a
> > positive experience within public education. Somehow, it seems every
last
> one
> > of you has been terribly scared in that torturous, unkind, mediocre,
> > unbending excuse of an exercise in the elevation of the pursuit of
> knowledge
> > to prepare you for your lives as adults. Every teacher, other than mel,
> has
> > been a miserable excuse for a human being with no control over their
> tempers,
> > no imagination, unable to cope with differing learning styles,
> personalities
> > or temperaments. Its amazing to think you've had the tolerance to allow
> those
> > miserable excuses for human being to continue to contaminate the air you
> > breathe. How unfortunate, that a teacher with 35-50 kids in a class
should
> > need individual students to be capable of controlling their own behavior
> > rather than catering to an individual's attention seeking behaviors,
could
> it
> > be the child doesn't get that at home, to the sacrifice of the other
34-49
> > other kids that is there to learn. We outlaw an individual's right to
yell
> > fire in a crowded theatre because it endangers those other occupants of
> that
> > theatre. Yet, somehow the right of the child to endanger the future of
> their
> > classmates by limiting their education doesn't come into play in your
> minds.
> > Yes, if you have a class of from 1 to 5 students, there is far less
> > distraction and far more latitude you can provide to those students than
> when
> > you have 35-50. And yes, just how many parents put the time or energy
into
> > helping their child by making sure they have done their studying or
> homework,
> > encourage them to be respectful and behave appropriately to support the
> > rights of the other students or even provide them with the basics of
> pencil
> > and paper and make sure they have it with them every day so they can do
> their
> > work at school? How many parents insure their child eats breakfast, gets
a
> > good nights sleep so that they aren't sleep deprived and unable to
> maintain
> > attention or appropriate behavior? How many parents don't cave to the
> child's
> > tantrums to dress like sluts on a street corner or dope dealers? Parents
> that
> > homeschool usually do so because they have an abiding interest in their
> > children and support the child's acquisition of knowledge. That parents
is
> > far too few and far apart today. But go ahead, keep on bashing educators
> with
> > your broad brush of disdain and ignorance.
> >
> > nanci
> > a public school art teacher and math tutor
> >
> > Sorry, but this isn't a post I'm going to sit on to cool down before
> sending.
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Sheron Roberts on thu 4 apr 02
I think, and I could be wrong, and I am only speaking for myself, but I =
do believe that this thread began on the subject of labeling children. =
The topic of discussion was not about teachers and "unlabeled' children. =
(god I hate saying that) but about children with special needs and =
placing labels on these children. The discussions did turn to public =
education. In my post, I made positive (or what I thought were =
positive) comments about two teachers who had tried to help my son. It =
was not the teachers fault that they were stopped or hindered by the =
system, i.e the school board. I mentioned that I was aware of the need =
for more funding in the school systems. I mentioned that my neighbor is =
a math teacher. He and I talk volumes about the needs of teachers, as =
well as the students. He keeps me updated on what's happening now. =20
When I was in school I had a variety of experiences with teachers. Good =
ones that I adored, one who cried and ran from the classroom when he =
couldn't get a handful of boys under control. One who loved embarrassing =
me and torturing me in front of the class (math teacher, four years, =
algebra I, algebra II, geometry and advanced math) I could go on and on =
and on. We all could. In college, (by the way, that was only 6 years =
ago) my ceramics teacher was and still is one of the best friends I will =
ever have. The math instructor was an angel. The head of the art =
department was a jerk. etc etc etc. The english teacher was, well, =
strange, to put it nicely.
Back to the challenged. My rant was against our/mine, as in where I =
live, not any one elses, school board. At the suggestion of one =
teacher, I went to the Literacy Council and found a reading tutor for my =
son. She was allowed to attend class with him and help him one on one. =
This freed the teacher for the other 30 or so kids. At this time, there =
were no special classes for him, he was in the mainstream. This was =
working great until some one higher up the system decided this was =
wrong. The teacher was not doing her job. Notice "I" didn't say she =
was not doing her job!!! The School Board said she was not doing her =
job. This is my rant and ever shall be. (and yes I vote every time =
there is an election) I fought battles for my "gifted and challenged" =
children for years. To no avail. By the time my son reached high =
school a committee of teachers decided he needed to be in extended day =
classes. These were afternoon classes where he sat watching movies =
(nothing educational, just what happened to be at the video store at the =
time) with the basketball jocks who needed to make a grade in order to =
play ball. I know, I sneaked on campus time after time and caught them =
doing this. Where was the teacher? In the lounge. Did I complain, =
Hell yes! To the school board, to the committee, to the prinicpal, to =
anyone who whould listen. Did it do any good, Hell no. I took my son =
out of high school and placed him in Adult Basic Education classes at =
the community college. Where did I get the idea to do this? From a =
caring and loving teacher he had from middle school. Who cared enough =
about James to come see us at home (warning me not to let the school =
board know) and make recommendations. Did this help James, yes it did.
I cannot speak for other parents and how they fed or dressed their =
children. I just know that mine were well fed, well clothed (and by the =
way, clothing was not, nor has ever been an issue in our household, but =
then, you know how old hippies dress don't you) On the sleep issue, =
well maybe they did stay up a little past bedtime because they were =
given so much homework to do, and I had three children to work with. =
One mentally challenged who had as much homework as the other two (that =
is, when he was in the lower grades, not high school)
The very reason my life as an artist was put on hold, and in my bio I =
state this, for twenty years I was raising kids and overseeing homework, =
no time for me for painting or anything else. But that was fine, my =
kids came first.=20
=20
Ignorance? Big word, ignorant. That is on my list of words not allowed =
to be used in my household, along with, shut up, stupid, retarded, ugly. =
(when referring to or talking to others) I hardly think a person on =
this list who has replied to this post could be called ignorant. This =
list is composed of many people, with many experiences, good and bad. =20
But you know you are right, if we all could have and did homeschool, =
then we wouldn't need public educators would we?
Sheron in NC (who sat on this post for exactly 8 hours before sending) =
and still wondering if "ignorant" is a label. :)
Michelle Lowe on thu 4 apr 02
> I find it amazing that not one person on this list has ever managed to
have a
> positive experience within public education.
I have had some very positive experiences in public school, with my
formerly home-schooled children. But then, I am a caring, involved parent
who does not foist my responsibility for my kids onto anyone, doctors,
teachers, whoever! My four kids were homeschooled until five years
ago. My boys entered school in 6th grade (a charter school here, which is
still "public" imo), my older daughter in 3rd and my younger daughter in
kindergarten. Our experience is that a parent who is paying attention will
search to find the right school for their kids, and so far ours has not let
us down, despite my personal dislike for some of the mob-mentality
procedures that schools seem unable to avoid.
My oldest son went to the charter elementary through 7th grade, then
skipped 8th and started 9th in an IB program in a high school (IB=
International Baccalaureate, an international, advanced in all subjects,
high school degree program that operates on a 5.0 grade scale). . He is
challenged by the work, but happy to do it. He was nominated by his
science teacher, one of two in his high school this year, to apply for a
scientific mentorship in a laboratory here in the area. Five or six
positions were open to 25-30 semi-finalists. He got one and is now working
(volunteering for the next three years) at Barrow's Neurological Institute,
in the Fever Trauma Lab. He is 16, and a sophomore. Our other son is 14
and hopes to enter the IB program next year. He's gotten enough teachers
to recommend him for it and seems to be all-systems-go for the switch up.
I, personally, don't give a flip if my sons stay in IB or move on to other
interests. I am of the strong opinion that their start in life gave them
the where-with-all to choose a good path for themselves, and that goes for
my girls too. There is plenty of good in the public school system, but
just like anything else, you have to sift through the not-so-good sometimes
to find it. I will always advocate home-schooling, but there are some
things about it that are sometimes not-so-good. My daughter is a social
maniac, while homeschooling we did park days with support groups, classes
and sports four or five days a week, regularly, but I know for a fact she
always wanted to go to school, and she was very happy to "be allowed" to do
so. Why would I hold her back? She got her report card today (she is in
6th grade now), straight A's, again.... We are thinking she may be
skipping 8th grade like her brother. Not only that, she is a hard-worker,
organized and always helpful. Our youngest is much the same as her sister,
and seems to enjoy school just as much.
I was asked, last year, to teach art part time (17 classes a week, part
time-haha), in the elementary school they attend, which I did, and wow, did
I get a new respect for schools and teachers! What an incredibly
overwhelming job to be in, with our insanely litigous society and
irresponsible parents. The kids are always wonderful, "good and bad", the
actual job of teaching, rewarding and fulfilling, but, dealing with the
bureaucracy and laws, that is scary stuff!
Mishy
Michelle Lowe potter in the Phoenix desert
http://www.desertdragonpottery.com
Mishy@desertdragonpottery.com
mishlowe@amug.org
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Sheron Roberts on thu 4 apr 02
The following are snippets taken from a letter published in today's =
local paper. This letter was written by the mother of a 12 year old boy =
who came home from school last week, calmly walked out into the woods =
behind his house and killed himself. She began her letter by asking =
this not be turned into an issue of gun control, but rather, a matter of =
"tongue" control.=20
The mother wrote:
"""I know there are a lot of rumors and stories being told right =
now....Little Rick didn't pay attention in school. Rick dreamed of =
being Daniel Boone, not Bill Gates. I guess in our school system there =
is no room for a child who loves a deer stand more than a computer...... =
It probably never entered the teacher's mind that he would do anything =
to harm himself.......But I don't find it any easier to know that the =
last few hours of his life he felt so small and unimportant....""""
She goes on to tell of how much the boy loved the woods and how he was =
raised in a hunting woodsman family, taught hunting and gun safety. =20
"""""He was not a loner with a fascination for guns and killing. He was =
just a little boy who wanted to wander the woods instead of doing =
homework, who wanted to fish instead of read, and found peace in the =
middle of the woods. I hope every parent who has a child that is so =
unhappy in school will find out why. Don't automatically blame the =
teacher, but find out what the problem is. Don't let a situation go on =
until a child starts trying to find his own way out........I pray that =
something good will come out of this situation. I pray that .....every =
teacher, every principal and anyone who has authority over our children =
will stop and think before they speak to a child in anger. I pray they =
learn to respect dreams of each child and not try to mold every one of =
them into their own idea of what he or she should be. This country was =
founded on the ideas of freedom and individuality......"""""
Ironic isn't it, that this should be published today. I know this =
mother very well. The boy was 12 years old. This family lives down the =
road from mine.
Sheron in NC=20
Lois Ruben Aronow on fri 5 apr 02
I, personally, had a (mostly) fine experience with the public school
system. I went through elementary school and intermediate school here
in NYC, and high school in suburban NJ.
Aside from the fact that I can't do any sort of math except for the
most basic, and a girl was raped in our Intermediate school when I was
in 6th grade (1969) my experience was run-of-the-mill. =20
My problems aren't with the individual teacher, IMHO. My issues are
with the bureaucracy that make up the public school system here in NY.
No teacher should have 30 kids in a class (which is typical). No
teacher should be expected to be a babysitter, which they are. Many
of the parents don't bother to be involved with the school, or their
child's education. There have been instances of voting on various
issues where many parents don't bother showing up. I can't imagine
how difficult it is for a teacher to be motivated when there are so
many rules, regulations, unions, etc. breathing down their necks. Not
to mention the sheer number of students. =20
--------------------------------------------
Lois Ruben Aronow
gilois@bellatlantic.net
=46ine Craft Porcelain
http://www.loisaronow.com
Tom's E-mail on fri 5 apr 02
Michelle,
You wrote " I find it amazing that not one person on this list has ever
managed to have a positive experience within public education."
STOP. I've had wonderful experiences in public schools. Don't project for
the silent ones.
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
Khaimraj Seepersad on fri 5 apr 02
Very , very , sad !
It's a pity , that no one thought to see if he had
a chance in Forestry , Agriculture , Bonsai ,
Landscaping , or a life as Vet.
Then you could have redirected his interests
into Biology , Chemistry and then taught him how
to use his interests to relate to his school subjects.
I have had a few "wild" children brought to me in
desperation and often all they needed was a link.
After introducing children to pottery - the famous
ash trays , the use of art , chemistry , and geography
,as well as history is the next step.
Links , that's all the child needs.
Someone to explain the links .
Opens the whole world .
Khaimraj
* At a later date the other step is standards.
[ how long does it take to make an Iznik plate
for example , to get to that beautiful level. ]
-----Original Message-----
From: Sheron Roberts
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: 04 April 2002 19:58
Subject: Re: Education rant
The following are snippets taken from a letter published in today's local
paper. This letter was written by the mother of a 12 year old boy who came
home from school last week, calmly walked out into the woods behind his
house and killed himself. She began her letter by asking this not be
turned into an issue of gun control, but rather, a matter of "tongue"
control.
The mother wrote:
"""I know there are a lot of rumors and stories being told right
now....Little Rick didn't pay attention in school. Rick dreamed of being
Daniel Boone, not Bill Gates. I guess in our school system there is no room
for a child who loves a deer stand more than a computer...... It probably
never entered the teacher's mind that he would do anything to harm
himself.......But I don't find it any easier to know that the last few hours
of his life he felt so small and unimportant....""""
She goes on to tell of how much the boy loved the woods and how he was
raised in a hunting woodsman family, taught hunting and gun safety.
"""""He was not a loner with a fascination for guns and killing. He was
just a little boy who wanted to wander the woods instead of doing homework,
who wanted to fish instead of read, and found peace in the middle of the
woods. I hope every parent who has a child that is so unhappy in school
will find out why. Don't automatically blame the teacher, but find out what
the problem is. Don't let a situation go on until a child starts trying to
find his own way out........I pray that something good will come out of this
situation. I pray that .....every teacher, every principal and anyone who
has authority over our children will stop and think before they speak to a
child in anger. I pray they learn to respect dreams of each child and not
try to mold every one of them into their own idea of what he or she should
be. This country was founded on the ideas of freedom and
individuality......"""""
Ironic isn't it, that this should be published today. I know this mother
very well. The boy was 12 years old. This family lives down the road from
mine.
Sheron in NC
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Michelle Lowe on fri 5 apr 02
Tom!!! Go back and re-read my post please!
I did NOT type that, I quoted that from another post! *MY* words were the
diatribe below that quote!!!!!!!
I started with-
"I have had some very positive experiences in public school, with my
formerly home-schooled children..."
Mishy
At 07:33 AM 4/5/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Michelle,
>
>You wrote " I find it amazing that not one person on this list has ever
>managed to have a positive experience within public education."
>
>STOP. I've had wonderful experiences in public schools. Don't project for
>the silent ones.
>Tom Sawyer
>tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
>
-----------
Michelle Lowe potter in the Phoenix desert
http://www.desertdragonpottery.com
Mishy@desertdragonpottery.com
mishlowe@amug.org
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