Tony Ferguson on sat 22 jun 02
can
Lois,
You have taken what I have said far too personally, and maybe I took what
you said far too personally too. The bit about "honesty" and "ethics" was
less directed at you and more put out there as something that should be part
of this discussion. All I am simply saying is try to be considerate to
others--something we all learned the first day in kindergarten. Yes there
are all kinds of markets and we are all at different places, etc, etc and we
all have to start somewhere BUT the golden rule is a good thing to remember
here. I have seemed to found my market for the work I like to make and I
didn't mention that it is not at art fairs. I sell most of my work on the
internet because there I can get what I want for my work. I just remembered
that underselling in art school was called prostituting yourself.
But when I do art fairs and I see a subsidized potter underselling with a
big smile on his or her face driving a brand new SUV next to a potter who is
working her ass off (and this underselling does affect the buying publics
pschology and MIS-EDUCATES them about what kinds of prices we need for our
work to survive) driving a beater van to make a living, irks me. That's
all. And, I am in the beater van category but not the lower prices because
I charge more for a teabowl for example than anyone else at an art fair--and
because of this we scrap by. So, keep that in mind next time when you begin
changing your prices your actions do affect others. I didn't say your were
responsible for them, but that your actions may affect them and they do. I
have friends who say there is a price range for everybody and not to worry
about it. But come on, isn't anyone bothered by what we are talking about
here? BTW, the glass people literally kick other glass people out of fairs
who undersell.
Tony
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lois Ruben Aronow"
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: Ferguson response to Underselling other artists because you can
> Tony wrote:
>
> > people who undersell affect us because the generally undeducated public
is thinking WHAT A DEAL
> >or MAN THIS POTTER IS SELLING THEIR STUFF SO CHEAP THEY MUST NOT NEED THE
> >MONEY or MUST BE A STARVING ARTIST THEY NEED THE MONEY SO BAD I'LL HELP
'EM
> >OUT. If I could get into the mind of the general public I would be rich.
>
> Well, we all could be rich. But the public is not "educated". Fact.
> Is it my job to educate them, one by one? No. Most people want
> something that will look nice with potatoes in it. Or match the sofa.
> "I need a bowl to throw my keys in.". God, I heard that one 6 times
> this weekend. No one bought anything because they "felt sorry" for
> me, or for any other potter. This is NY. No one gives a shit about
> the size of my mortgage or how many kids I have or the fact that my
> porcelain costs twice as much as stoneware or that my ConEd is raising
> my electric bill again.
>
> > In other words, you can afford to sell your work less expensively, drop
your prices because the
> >market sets them for you as you say and not worry about the direct
> >connection of the income derived to cover your bills--meanwhile those of
us
> >who are not supported who are trying to make an honest living (and maybe
> >honest is the key world and ETHICS of how our choices affect each other
and
> >our livelihoods should also be discussed here)
>
> So you think I am being dishonest an unethical? So be it. Personally
> speaking, my prices are not dirt cheap. I see handmade wares in
> chi-chi design stores (and we have a lot of them here) who's prices
> are a lot less than mine. If people can buy something hand made - in
> a store - for less money, how am I to convince them to spend more
> money on mine?The bricks and mortar add an air of legitimacy. So like
> it or not, the market DOES affect pricing.
>
> The sad fact is that if for some reason I had to support me and my
> kids alone, I either wouldn't be a potter (I would go back to my
> previous career in television) or I wouldn't live in NYC. But that is
> MY problem and not the concern of anyone but myself. No one else is
> responsible for supporting my lifestyle choices.
>
> >Most people are generally cheap.
>
> At least we can agree on this. The truth is, I make more money
> selling my work from my stoop. And when I do this, I don't have to
> pay a booth fee, promoter's percentage or truck rental. My credit
> card fees are lower because the card can be swiped in, as I have a
> phone line at home. I have regular local customers and a following.
> No competition from other potters who's prices may be lower. Because
> I have immediately eliminated $700 in expenses (yes, that much) I can
> afford to charge less for my pots. Instead of $75 for a medium sized
> bowl, I can charge $50. And sell more of them. How is this being
> dishonest? How is that being unethical? If anything, I am honest to
> a fault. I keep all sales receipts. Have a license to sell, and
> collect (and pay) sales tax. I file my taxes quarterly and on time.
> I report all sales, Including cash. People feel good because they
> feel like maybe they are getting a bargain. When I sell from my
> studio, people can visit a working studio and may learn a little bit
> about the craft. I feel good because I have made twice as much money,
> sold more ware, contributed to the family expenses, and ultimately,
> make more pots and grow as an artist.
> >
> >We are all connected through the craft and art of clay and don't think
for
> >one minute that how we set our prices doesn't affect other artists
because
> >it does.
>
> I only believe this to a point. Most people don't know the different
> between the clays, the methods, or the artistic style and don't care.
> They don't care that a potter in Minnesota charges less than a potter
> in LA, or that one guy sells his pots by the side of the road in New
> Mexico. They care about their own here and now and their own personal
> use of the pot.
> >
> >Just because someone sells a lot of work at a low price is not a sign
that
> >they are successful--so they sold a lot of pots. SO what. How's your
back
> >lately? Can they pay their bills and get out of debt?
>
> Actually, this other guy sold 5 times what I, and my potter friend
> sold. He paid his rent for 6 months, while we covered expenses and
> made lunch money. That's so what. We had a long discussion (he's a
> nice man, who lives in my neighborhood, who has a wife and a 4 year
> old daughter) and he's trying to prove to his wife that he can support
> them with his clay. I may not like his pricing, but I am fully
> supportive of him and what he's trying to do. I'm sure his back hurts
> just as much as mine does. (Maybe mine hurts more - I have a 30 lb one
> year old).
>
> >BTW, art fairs are fun and that's why I do them and I hope to do more.
They
> >are not fun when people undersell crap next to you and the buyer thinks
they
> >are getting a deal.
>
> The glass artist next to me told me a joke. A craftsperson wins the
> lottery. Big money. And his friend asks him what he's going to do
> with all the cash. Retire? Fly fish? Read? The craftperson says
> "Hell no - I'm going to do crafts fairs until the money runs out!".
>
> We have no control over what the person next to us is doing. We only
> have control over ourselves. Time spent being bitter about what
> others are doing (especially others halfway across the country) is
> time wasted. It's far better to find the right market for one's work,
> do what makes you happy, and continue to grow. The rest will follow.
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Lois Ruben Aronow
> gilois@bellatlantic.net
>
> Fine Craft Porcelain
> http://www.loisaronow.com - Newly updated!
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Rikki Gill on sat 22 jun 02
can
People do not go thru those head trips. They buy what they like, when they
see it, if they can afford it. We who live on our work, like me, tend to
think no one has extra money to spend, but it just aint so. Rikki off
to help my assistant set up her first ever sales booth for her work at a
farmers market. All the questions I have pretty much answered for myself
will now be re-asked. Let us collectively wish her a really good day.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lois Ruben Aronow"
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: Ferguson response to Underselling other artists because you can
> Tony wrote:
>
> > people who undersell affect us because the generally undeducated public
is thinking WHAT A DEAL
> >or MAN THIS POTTER IS SELLING THEIR STUFF SO CHEAP THEY MUST NOT NEED THE
> >MONEY or MUST BE A STARVING ARTIST THEY NEED THE MONEY SO BAD I'LL HELP
'EM
> >OUT. If I could get into the mind of the general public I would be rich.
>
> Well, we all could be rich. But the public is not "educated". Fact.
> Is it my job to educate them, one by one? No. Most people want
> something that will look nice with potatoes in it. Or match the sofa.
> "I need a bowl to throw my keys in.". God, I heard that one 6 times
> this weekend. No one bought anything because they "felt sorry" for
> me, or for any other potter. This is NY. No one gives a shit about
> the size of my mortgage or how many kids I have or the fact that my
> porcelain costs twice as much as stoneware or that my ConEd is raising
> my electric bill again.
>
> > In other words, you can afford to sell your work less expensively, drop
your prices because the
> >market sets them for you as you say and not worry about the direct
> >connection of the income derived to cover your bills--meanwhile those of
us
> >who are not supported who are trying to make an honest living (and maybe
> >honest is the key world and ETHICS of how our choices affect each other
and
> >our livelihoods should also be discussed here)
>
> So you think I am being dishonest an unethical? So be it. Personally
> speaking, my prices are not dirt cheap. I see handmade wares in
> chi-chi design stores (and we have a lot of them here) who's prices
> are a lot less than mine. If people can buy something hand made - in
> a store - for less money, how am I to convince them to spend more
> money on mine?The bricks and mortar add an air of legitimacy. So like
> it or not, the market DOES affect pricing.
>
> The sad fact is that if for some reason I had to support me and my
> kids alone, I either wouldn't be a potter (I would go back to my
> previous career in television) or I wouldn't live in NYC. But that is
> MY problem and not the concern of anyone but myself. No one else is
> responsible for supporting my lifestyle choices.
>
> >Most people are generally cheap.
>
> At least we can agree on this. The truth is, I make more money
> selling my work from my stoop. And when I do this, I don't have to
> pay a booth fee, promoter's percentage or truck rental. My credit
> card fees are lower because the card can be swiped in, as I have a
> phone line at home. I have regular local customers and a following.
> No competition from other potters who's prices may be lower. Because
> I have immediately eliminated $700 in expenses (yes, that much) I can
> afford to charge less for my pots. Instead of $75 for a medium sized
> bowl, I can charge $50. And sell more of them. How is this being
> dishonest? How is that being unethical? If anything, I am honest to
> a fault. I keep all sales receipts. Have a license to sell, and
> collect (and pay) sales tax. I file my taxes quarterly and on time.
> I report all sales, Including cash. People feel good because they
> feel like maybe they are getting a bargain. When I sell from my
> studio, people can visit a working studio and may learn a little bit
> about the craft. I feel good because I have made twice as much money,
> sold more ware, contributed to the family expenses, and ultimately,
> make more pots and grow as an artist.
> >
> >We are all connected through the craft and art of clay and don't think
for
> >one minute that how we set our prices doesn't affect other artists
because
> >it does.
>
> I only believe this to a point. Most people don't know the different
> between the clays, the methods, or the artistic style and don't care.
> They don't care that a potter in Minnesota charges less than a potter
> in LA, or that one guy sells his pots by the side of the road in New
> Mexico. They care about their own here and now and their own personal
> use of the pot.
> >
> >Just because someone sells a lot of work at a low price is not a sign
that
> >they are successful--so they sold a lot of pots. SO what. How's your
back
> >lately? Can they pay their bills and get out of debt?
>
> Actually, this other guy sold 5 times what I, and my potter friend
> sold. He paid his rent for 6 months, while we covered expenses and
> made lunch money. That's so what. We had a long discussion (he's a
> nice man, who lives in my neighborhood, who has a wife and a 4 year
> old daughter) and he's trying to prove to his wife that he can support
> them with his clay. I may not like his pricing, but I am fully
> supportive of him and what he's trying to do. I'm sure his back hurts
> just as much as mine does. (Maybe mine hurts more - I have a 30 lb one
> year old).
>
> >BTW, art fairs are fun and that's why I do them and I hope to do more.
They
> >are not fun when people undersell crap next to you and the buyer thinks
they
> >are getting a deal.
>
> The glass artist next to me told me a joke. A craftsperson wins the
> lottery. Big money. And his friend asks him what he's going to do
> with all the cash. Retire? Fly fish? Read? The craftperson says
> "Hell no - I'm going to do crafts fairs until the money runs out!".
>
> We have no control over what the person next to us is doing. We only
> have control over ourselves. Time spent being bitter about what
> others are doing (especially others halfway across the country) is
> time wasted. It's far better to find the right market for one's work,
> do what makes you happy, and continue to grow. The rest will follow.
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Lois Ruben Aronow
> gilois@bellatlantic.net
>
> Fine Craft Porcelain
> http://www.loisaronow.com - Newly updated!
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Tony Ferguson on sat 22 jun 02
can
Sam,
I think you hit something on the head--me! You are talking about integrity
and not prostituting yourself as they say in art school and guilds. And
maybe that is what I am saying too--but I have also been guilty of lowering
prices as I discovered the market I was in at the time didn't want to pay my
prices and I didn't like it.
I generally keep my prices higher as well and don't sell anything close to
my friends who sell their work respectfully. So like you, maybe certain art
fairs are not my market or at all. I need to do some larger fairs to see if
this is true. I hear so many stories about people getting phenomenal prices
for their works. Of couse, who are they, quality of work, did they take ads
out, self promotion, etc. I did not say we should tell each other what WE
HAVE TO sell something for. I think after all this responding it boils down
to being considerate and not prostituing one's self. But, I will be the
first to say that if I was getting desparate I would do whatever I would
need to do to take care of my family. That's all. Thank you for the
compliment, Sam!
Thank you.
Tony Ferguson
Stoneware, Porcelain, Raku
www.aquariusartgallery.com
218-727-6339
315 N. Lake Ave
Apt 312
Duluth, MN 55806
----- Original Message -----
From: "k. sam miller"
To:
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: Ferguson response to Underselling other artists because you can
> Lois & Tony seem to be on opposite sides of this debate. I don't know
> where I stand, yet; but let me relate my experience over the last couple
of
> years as an amateur ceramic sculptor.
>
> I have always base-priced my work according to how many hours I spent
> making it (I don't know how relevant this is to functional potters). I
pay
> myself $25/hr, then if there is something really special about a
particular
> sculpture, I may build on that base price.
>
> I have participated in a couple of local craft shows with a functional
> potter friend who started his clay adventure about the same time I did.
He
> always prices his stuff to move because he doesn't want it hanging around
> (both of us have day jobs that give us the luxury of this type of
decision).
>
> I, on the other hand, have always stubbornly persisted in keeping my
prices
> higher. In two years (3-4 shows) I have sold one piece. My friend has
> unloaded lots of mugs/bowls/etc. at his lower prices. Obviously I'm not
> making money at this endeavor, but I feel like I'm being true to work &
> respecting it for what it's worth. I'm not willing to slash my prices to
> sell more because I feel that I would be dishonoring myself & the work.
>
> I don't mean this to be inflammatory or to suggest that people who sell
> their work for reduced prices don't respect themselves. I just say that
> this works for ME.
>
> I am not mad at my friend (again, maybe special circumstances - his cheap
> mugs are probably not directly influencing the perceived value of my
> abstract sculpture). My take on it is that if things around me are
selling
> for bargain basement prices, then I'm probably showing my high priced
stuff
> to the WRONG AUDIENCE at the WRONG VENUE.
>
> Again, I know that my circumstances do allow me much more freedom to
ponder
> these issues without dire economic implications to my quality of life, so
> take my comments within that context. I am also a collector (I've got one
> of Tony F's beautiful shino chawans) who is not afraid to pay what
> something is worth. However, I must admit that my independent/stubborn
> streak flares when someone tells me that I HAVE to charge xyz for MY work
> -- who are they to dictate my price structure, yadayadayada.
>
> Ultimately, I tend to side with the idea that well crafted ceramics work
is
> worth more than the Pottery Barn/ __-mart cheapo stuff. I also believe
> that there is some subtle psychology going on when a consumer sees
> something that's cheap - they start to view it as a commodity and perhaps
> desire it less.
>
> Interesting discourse...
>
> Sam
> Texas Dabbler
> (desperately needing to vacuum all the Molly hair from the carpet or start
> a pillow stuffing venture...)
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Tim and Midori on sat 22 jun 02
can
> BTW, the glass people literally kick other glass people out of fairs
> who undersell.
>
> Tony
Physically?
I'm getting a vision of a Sopranos episode featuring burly glass-blowers.
Tony Ferguson on sat 22 jun 02
can
Lois,
I believe you keep missing my points, taking others out of context, so I
think I have had enough of this thread. Do what you will.
Thank you.
Tony Ferguson
Stoneware, Porcelain, Raku
www.aquariusartgallery.com
218-727-6339
315 N. Lake Ave
Apt 312
Duluth, MN 55806
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lois Ruben Aronow"
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: Ferguson response to Underselling other artists because you can
> On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:54:34 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >Lois,
> >
> >You have taken what I have said far too personally, and maybe I took what
> >you said far too personally too. The bit about "honesty" and "ethics"
was
> >less directed at you and more put out there as something that should be
part
> >of this discussion.
>
> Perhaps, and you seemed to have completely forgotten the part in my
> email where I said *I* was not the one underselling at this fair, it
> was the guy 6 booths down from me. I charge what is average in my
> area, according to stores and other potters.
>
> >But when I do art fairs and I see a subsidized potter underselling with a
> >big smile on his or her face driving a brand new SUV next to a potter who
is
> >working her ass off (and this underselling does affect the buying publics
> >pschology and MIS-EDUCATES them about what kinds of prices we need for
our
> >work to survive) driving a beater van to make a living, irks me.
>
> Talking about taking things personally, get over yourself about who
> has what. Just because someone has a brand new SUV (mine is 10 yrs
> old, btw, and has 100,000 miles on it...) doesn't mean they put in any
> less time, has any less love of clay, has an easier time, or is less
> passionate about the craft than anyone else. And don't assume it's a
> woman. The person who was underselling at my particular fair was a
> man.
>
> > I just remembered that underselling in art school was called
prostituting yourself.
>
> No, working in a field you love - for me it is clay - is not
> prostituting one's self. Working in television (or whatever your
> chosen field is) and dealing with imbeciles day in and day out because
> you're raking it in is prostituting yourself. These days, the
> immature, childish people I deal with on a daily basis are actual
> children. The clay is my sanctuary. It is lovely.
>
> And enough about the glass people. People will pay more for it
> because it is a decorative item, and therefore a luxury item. Once
> you apply a function to it, the market perceives it's monetary value
> to be less. It costs more to make. Many people have taken a pottery
> class and perceive it as something they themselves can do, whereas
> there is still far more mystery with glass. And the glass people I
> met have not complained or thrown out anyone.
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Lois Ruben Aronow
> gilois@bellatlantic.net
>
> Fine Craft Porcelain
> http://www.loisaronow.com - Newly updated!
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
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