Michal Alon on mon 24 jun 02
Hello,
After more then 20 years of firing my electric kilns without electronic
controller, I'm finally giving in... It's becoming too much of a hustle to
baby sit a kiln for 8-11 hours.
My question to the group would probably sound rather stupid, but I really
have no idea what's important about this strange creature that I'm about to
let into my studio. Brand names won't do much good, since I live and work in
Israel, but I'd really like to know what the most important features are.
TIA
Michal
Arnold Howard on mon 24 jun 02
I believe the biggest advantage of the controller, for most people,
is that it adjusts firing speed automatically. You don't have to
remember to turn the switches to medium and high.
The controller is a learning tool. You can experiment by changing a
firing in a hundred different ways. What happens if you slow the
firing during quartz inversion? How fast can you safely fire the
kiln after that point? Will a temperature hold at the end of firing
change the glaze color? What about slow cooling?
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, Inc.
--- Michal Alon wrote:
> Hello,
> After more then 20 years of firing my electric kilns without
> electronic
> controller, I'm finally giving in... It's becoming too much of a
> hustle to
> baby sit a kiln for 8-11 hours.
> My question to the group would probably sound rather stupid, but
> I really
> have no idea what's important about this strange creature that
> I'm about to
> let into my studio. Brand names won't do much good, since I live
> and work in
> Israel, but I'd really like to know what the most important
> features are.
> TIA
> Michal
>
__________________________________________________
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Marni Turkel on tue 25 jun 02
I've had relays burn out in an "on" position, though they almost
always burn out so the power goes out. Twice I've had a controller
fire for 18-20 hours with hardly any rise in temperature and not give
me an error message. I think it is safe to assume that anything is
possible. I have a timer, a kiln sitter, and a controller on each
firing, I just can't be there all the time.
Marni
Earl wrote:
>I'm curious, has anyone ever had a controller fail in a way that
>left the power ON
>and the temperature climbing out of control? Every failure that we
>have had shut
>the power down.
--
Marni Turkel
Stony Point Ceramic Design
2080 Llano Rd 1B
Santa Rosa, CA 95407
Phone: 707-579-5567
Fax: 707-579-1116
http://www.marniturkel.com
Carol Tripp on tue 25 jun 02
Hi Michal,
I don't know where you will be buying your controller but it would be a good
idea to use the internet to research the features of various controllers.
Look up the big US kiln makers (Skutt, Paragon, L&L for example) and study
the controllers they sell. Also, go to Orton and study their controller.
Get a copy of Ceramic Review, an English publication and look for the ads in
the back. Contact those firms and get their controller specs. Then you
will have a feel for what's out there and prices too.
I have a Dynatrol from L&L and it's okay. It does what I need doing and it
has three thermocouples on it so I can control three zones in my kiln. I
think the three zone control is an important feature.
By the way, I live in Dubai and shopped the US and UK when I wanted a kiln
and controller, and the US was way cheaper even with the shipping. Then
again, if you can buy a controller locally, lucky you.
Best regards,
Carol
>
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Nanci Bishof on tue 25 jun 02
The most important feature is that you still need to 'baby-sit' that kiln.
Controllers can fail with the circuit closed. That provides a continuous
supply of electricity to the coils to keep the heat building. I monitor mine
on each half hour through quartz inversion and each hour till end
temperature. If I'm also ramping down I continue the monitoring.
Once burned, twice cautious. I do not recommend solid state relays as they
have a higher failure rate than the mercury switched relays. Ask your
supplier to find out which is used in the controller.
nanci
Charles Moore on tue 25 jun 02
Nanci has a good point here: monitor, even if you are using a kiln
controller.
Using Ron and John's ^6 ramp and hold schedule last week, the kiln sitter
tripped before the ^6 cones had begun to fall, during the 20 minute hold at
2190 degrees F. I later found that the small cone (^05) in the sitter had
fallen "before its time." (Who knows why?) Fortunately, I was there to get
the kiln sitter operative through mechanical means--by changing the setting
on the set screw that holds the metal sitter "flap" in place. Instead of
depending on the sitter alone, I was reading the temperature on my kiln
controller display, my pyrometer (which reliably measures about 150 degrees
lower than the kiln controller), and my cone pats.
The firing proceeded as scheduled.
Charles Moore
Sacramento
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nanci Bishof"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:04 AM
Subject: Re: Kiln controller
> The most important feature is that you still need to 'baby-sit' that kiln.
> Controllers can fail with the circuit closed. That provides a continuous
> supply of electricity to the coils to keep the heat building. I monitor
mine
> on each half hour through quartz inversion and each hour till end
> temperature. If I'm also ramping down I continue the monitoring.
> nanci
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Arnold Howard on tue 25 jun 02
Another way to choose a controller is to read the instruction
manual. It contains more information than a catalog about the
controller. Every feature is described. Kiln manufacturers are
beginning to include instruction manuals at their websites. You can
download them in pdf format free of charge.
Do you live in an area that has power fluctuations? Be sure the
controller you choose can operate in that environment.
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, Inc.
--- Carol Tripp wrote:
> Hi Michal,
> I don't know where you will be buying your controller but it
> would be a good
> idea to use the internet to research the features of various
> controllers.
> Look up the big US kiln makers (Skutt, Paragon, L&L for example)
> and study
> the controllers they sell. Also, go to Orton and study their
> controller.
> Get a copy of Ceramic Review, an English publication and look for
> the ads in
> the back. Contact those firms and get their controller specs.
> Then you
> will have a feel for what's out there and prices too.
> I have a Dynatrol from L&L and it's okay. It does what I need
> doing and it
> has three thermocouples on it so I can control three zones in my
> kiln. I
> think the three zone control is an important feature.
> By the way, I live in Dubai and shopped the US and UK when I
> wanted a kiln
> and controller, and the US was way cheaper even with the
> shipping. Then
> again, if you can buy a controller locally, lucky you.
> Best regards,
> Carol
>
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
> http://messenger.msn.com
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Orchard Valley Ceramics Arts Guild on tue 25 jun 02
Hi Michal,
The basic idea of a controller is very simple. You can pre-program
a series of segments. Each segment consists of a rate of temperature
rise (or fall), and a final temperature (or on some controllers a
time interval for each segment). At that level, all controllers are
pretty much the same.
Controllers may vary the number of "programs" you can store, the
maximum number of segments per program, the number of "zones"
you can control, and the ability to set offsets or overrides to correct
for thermocouple error.
You'll need to spend some time doing test firings and learning how
to use your controller. During that time, you will have questions,
and you may run into problems. I think good support is just as
important as the specific features. I've found the people at Bartlett,
a US manufacturer, to be extremely friendly and helpful. I'd suggest
that, when you narrow down your controller search, you make a few
phone calls to the companies you are considering to see what kind of
support they provide.
Good luck!
Bob Nicholson
>Hello,
>After more then 20 years of firing my electric kilns without electronic
>controller, I'm finally giving in... It's becoming too much of a hustle to
>baby sit a kiln for 8-11 hours.
>My question to the group would probably sound rather stupid, but I really
>have no idea what's important about this strange creature that I'm about to
>let into my studio. Brand names won't do much good, since I live and work in
>Israel, but I'd really like to know what the most important features are.
>TIA
>Michal
Earl Brunner on tue 25 jun 02
I'm curious, has anyone ever had a controller fail in a way that left the power ON
and the temperature climbing out of control? Every failure that we have had shut
the power down. This would be important, because our kilns are fired without
supervision, or even anyone in the building. We have temperature problems here in
the summer with the outside air often getting over 110 in the day and with the
kilns inside the ceramic lab we don't like to be around them when they are firing.
Even with air conditioning and exhaust fans the room gets too hot.
We are firing Skutt 1027's with Skutt's standard controller.
Nanci Bishof wrote:
> The most important feature is that you still need to 'baby-sit' that kiln.
> Controllers can fail with the circuit closed. That provides a continuous
> supply of electricity to the coils to keep the heat building. I monitor mine
> on each half hour through quartz inversion and each hour till end
> temperature. If I'm also ramping down I continue the monitoring.
>
> Once burned, twice cautious. I do not recommend solid state relays as they
> have a higher failure rate than the mercury switched relays. Ask your
> supplier to find out which is used in the controller.
>
> nanci
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Roger Graham on wed 26 jun 02
For Earl, asking whether computerised kiln controllers can ever fail with
power in the "ON" position. I've seen two melt-downs, not a pretty sight.
One was in a brand-new 6 cubic foot kiln installed in a school art
department, in the care of a young teacher whose skills were more in
painting and sculpture. Teacher switched the kiln on for the first time,
programmed for a 1000 C bisque firing. Looked at the digital readout, which
didn't seem to be climbing much. Left the kiln on for hours and hours and
hours. Still nothing on the readout. Didn't know how to look in the spyhole
and estimate temperature by colour... red hot is 600 C, and so on. Meanwhile
the kiln was just getting hotter and hotter, until complete destruction
within.
How did it happen? The pyromete probe was installed in the back wall of the
front-loading kiln, with a long length of compensating cable just dangling
down the back to enter the controller somewhere below. Apparently the wires
came unstuck, so the controller wasn't receiving a signal at all from the
probe. You'd think the programmer would have been designed to sense this,
and switch the power off in the event of an open circuit probe. "Fail safe"
in other words. But not so.
I think you could check whether a given controller was designed to "fail
safe" in this condition, by disconnecting the cable from the pyrometer.
Switch on and see if the kiln still fires up. It shouldn't, of course.
The other melt-down was in a commercial pottery in New Zealand, firing a
large load of terracotta garden ware. I have a photo of drooping shelves
with huge dark brown blobs like cow pats, where the brown garden pots had
melted away. Sight to make a potter weep. So yes, kiln controllers can and
do fail to shut down.
Arnold Howard on wed 26 jun 02
I suggest monitoring the kilns at least occasionally. The relays
rarely fail in the closed position. However, other problems can
cause an over-fire with a digital kiln.
The room temperature should never get higher than 110 deg. F.
Measure temperature 3' from the kiln. High ambient room temperature
lowers the life of the kiln's switch box components. It might help
to lower temperature if you space the kilns farther apart from each
other.
Arnold Howard
Paragon
--- Earl Brunner wrote:
> I'm curious, has anyone ever had a controller fail in a way that
> left the power ON
> and the temperature climbing out of control? Every failure that
> we have had shut
> the power down. This would be important, because our kilns are
> fired without
> supervision, or even anyone in the building. We have temperature
> problems here in
> the summer with the outside air often getting over 110 in the day
> and with the
> kilns inside the ceramic lab we don't like to be around them when
> they are firing.
> Even with air conditioning and exhaust fans the room gets too
> hot.
> We are firing Skutt 1027's with Skutt's standard controller.
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Nanci Bishof on wed 26 jun 02
Melted the ceiling light in the room with the kiln. I'm speaking from
experience. The controller failed with a solid state relay more than once in
the closed circuit position. The controller now has a Mercury switch relay. I
don't stay in the room but every time I fire I do go in to check the kilns
temperature on a schedule to make sure I don't have the problem. If it ends
up going past when I can physically stay awake I set my alarm to wake me to
check it and reset it for the next time interval. It does not go untended. I
also have a heat alarm that is hardwired with battery backup that is
monitored by an alarm company.
If I hadn't had the alarm set and checked it as frequently I would not have a
house. It failed at the end of the firing the last time and went well beyond
^10. Kiln furniture melted and shelves collapsed on top each other.
Thankfully, it was only a glaze test firing and I did catch it before
anything worse happened.
nanci
Orchard Valley Ceramics Arts Guild on wed 26 jun 02
>I'm curious, has anyone ever had a controller fail in a way that
>left the power ON
>and the temperature climbing out of control?
Great question. I don't know if this occurs frequently, or ever, but
it's something
I worry about as well. I've had a fire alarm installed near my kiln.
It reacts to
"rate of change" in temperature, rather than the absolute temperature, so
presumably a run-away kiln would set it off. I also have a particle
detector (smoke
detector) type alarm. Both are centrally monitored, so at least if
the controller
fails and somehow results in a fire, I won't lose my house.
Earl Brunner on wed 26 jun 02
I'm talking about the controller screwing up, I understand that there is
human error and I don't think that either of your incidents applies to
what I am talking about directly. They are serious considerations, but
I am more concerned about the possibility of the failure taking place
without the human error factor. In other words, these two kilns have a
track record of working correctly, assuming the program has been entered
correctly and everything is connected correctly in the first place.
Does anyone know of a time where a controller has malfunctioned and
caused a meltdown?
Earl Brunner
mailto:bruec@anv.net
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On
Behalf Of Roger Graham
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:21 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Kiln controller
For Earl, asking whether computerised kiln controllers can ever fail
with
power in the "ON" position. I've seen two melt-downs, not a pretty
sight.
One was in a brand-new 6 cubic foot kiln installed in a school art
department, in the care of a young teacher whose skills were more in
painting and sculpture. Teacher switched the kiln on for the first time,
programmed for a 1000 C bisque firing. Looked at the digital readout,
which
didn't seem to be climbing much. Left the kiln on for hours and hours
and
hours. Still nothing on the readout. Didn't know how to look in the
spyhole
and estimate temperature by colour... red hot is 600 C, and so on.
Meanwhile
the kiln was just getting hotter and hotter, until complete destruction
within.
How did it happen? The pyromete probe was installed in the back wall of
the
front-loading kiln, with a long length of compensating cable just
dangling
down the back to enter the controller somewhere below. Apparently the
wires
came unstuck, so the controller wasn't receiving a signal at all from
the
probe. You'd think the programmer would have been designed to sense
this,
and switch the power off in the event of an open circuit probe. "Fail
safe"
in other words. But not so.
LeRoy Price on wed 26 jun 02
Yes, we once had one of our kiln controllers fail in the ON position. The
kiln reached 2550 before we noticed it. We had to completely rebuild the
inside of the kiln. We then installed high-limit controllers on all of our
kilns to prevent such an occurance from ruining another kiln.
The controller was one of the original Orton AutoFires. We have 5 of these
controllers, with many hundreds of firings, and this happened only once.
Except for that one occurance, we really like the AutoFires.
LeRoy Price
----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl Brunner"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: Kiln controller
> I'm curious, has anyone ever had a controller fail in a way that left the
power ON
> and the temperature climbing out of control? Every failure that we have
had shut
> the power down. This would be important, because our kilns are fired
without
> supervision, or even anyone in the building. We have temperature problems
here in
> the summer with the outside air often getting over 110 in the day and with
the
> kilns inside the ceramic lab we don't like to be around them when they are
firing.
> Even with air conditioning and exhaust fans the room gets too hot.
> We are firing Skutt 1027's with Skutt's standard controller.
>
> Nanci Bishof wrote:
>
> > The most important feature is that you still need to 'baby-sit' that
kiln.
> > Controllers can fail with the circuit closed. That provides a continuous
> > supply of electricity to the coils to keep the heat building. I monitor
mine
> > on each half hour through quartz inversion and each hour till end
> > temperature. If I'm also ramping down I continue the monitoring.
> >
> > Once burned, twice cautious. I do not recommend solid state relays as
they
> > have a higher failure rate than the mercury switched relays. Ask your
> > supplier to find out which is used in the controller.
> >
> > nanci
> >
> >
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
> --
> Earl Brunner
> http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
> mailto:bruec@anv.net
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
lloyd wilson on wed 11 apr 07
has anyone used the Auber Instruments controller model SYL-2352P on an electric kiln?
feedback on installation, accuracy?
Kent Wilson
Interest Rates Fall Again! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new payment
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