David Hendley on sat 22 jun 02
Here is the basis for how I price my pottery. It is a formula, but
be aware that it is just a general guideline and I deviate from
it all the time. It is perfectly OK to sell something for less or more
than it should be according to the formula, but important to
KNOW that you are doing it.
Also, my formula is not necessarily appropriate for your situation.
For instance, if you spend a lot of time painting overglaze designs
on you work, you would need to account for the time. I just include
glazing and loading the kiln as part of general overhead. If you
have substantial expenses, such as rent, the numbers would need
to be adjusted. If you are Artimater you need to triple or quadruple
all my numbers. Also remember that living is cheap in Maydelle.
The time spend to make a piece is the basis for its price. It works
like this:
1. $15 an hour for labor to make the piece. This includes all work done
while the piece is wet or drying, including painting slips and decoration.
It does not include any time spent after the piece is dry, such as
loading the kiln and glazing.
2. Double the cost to account for periphery labor such as making
glazes and firing the kiln, materials, and overhead, such as utilities. I
don't
pay rent, and there is no 'opportunity cost' to using the old farmhouse
because I would not rent it out if I weren't using it as a pottery shop.
3. Double the cost again to pay for time and overhead for selling the
work.
To simplify, the formula can also be stated as a flat $60 an hour, but
that makes it sound like you're really raking in the dough, which, of
course is not the case.
In practice, what I really do is use the formula 'backwards', and just check
and compare from time to time. For example, if I made 10 of my $36 bowls
and it took me 7 hours, I would multiply 10 bowls by $36 to get $360,
then divide by 4 (overhead and selling costs) to get $90,
then divide by 7 hours, to get $12.85.
This would tell me that the bowls are priced too low, and should really
be $42 (10 X $42 = $420, divided by 4 = $105, divided by 7 = $15).
I also take into account 'what the market will bear'. For me this means
that, for instance, I get less than $15 an hour for mugs and more than
$15 an hour for bowls. Again, that's OK, but I want to be aware of it.
I also abandon the model if I am trying totally new things. I consider
that more like research and development.
Now, for the amusement of all, here are the pricing guidelines my first
pottery teacher told me in 1973:
His formula was to add one dollar every time you touch a piece.
So, a mug would be:
$1 to make the form
$1 to trim it
$1 to add the handle
$1 to bisque fire it
$1 to glaze it
$1 to glaze fire it
for a grand total of $6
I guess you could update this idea to use it today, but I think it has
a flaw in not taking size into consideration.
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
hendley@tyler.net
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
> Actually, I think it would be great if some of the experienced people
> could suggest a range of prices for various items. I know it would be
> ball park, but maybe a few suggestions could help those of us who sell
> less seriously or less often figure out how to do it. Clay is cheap,
> labor expensive, but how do you figure it. How about a few sample
> prices?
>
> Leslie Ihde
>
> .
L. P. Skeen on sun 23 jun 02
OMG, I am SO shocked that you're being a smartA**. Not.
I swear if I had a dollar for every time I packed or unpacked SOME
pieces...........yikes.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anji Henderson"
To:
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: The price is right
> I just feel like being a smart A** ...
>
> Maybe if you need money you can just sit there and
> touch it?? Or what about adding a dollar each time you
> have to pack it and un pack it -- your touching it !!
> :)
>
> Anji
>
> --- "L. P. Skeen" wrote:
> > > Now, for the amusement of all, here are the
> > pricing guidelines my first
> > pottery teacher told me in 1973:
> > > His formula was to add one dollar every time you
> > touch a piece.
> > > So, a mug would be:
> > > $1 to make the form
> > > $1 to trim it
> > > $1 to add the handle
> > > $1 to bisque fire it
> > > $1 to glaze it
> > > $1 to glaze fire it
> > > for a grand total of $6
> > > I guess you could update this idea to use it
> > today, but I think it has a
> > flaw in not taking size into consideration.
> >
> >
> > David,
> >
> > I think you could correct the formula to account for
> > size by charging $1 per
> > pound of clay used to throw the piece.
> >
> > L
>
>
> =====
> Good art does not have to match your sofa!!
> -Fred Babb
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
L. P. Skeen on sun 23 jun 02
> Now, for the amusement of all, here are the pricing guidelines my first
pottery teacher told me in 1973:
> His formula was to add one dollar every time you touch a piece.
> So, a mug would be:
> $1 to make the form
> $1 to trim it
> $1 to add the handle
> $1 to bisque fire it
> $1 to glaze it
> $1 to glaze fire it
> for a grand total of $6
> I guess you could update this idea to use it today, but I think it has a
flaw in not taking size into consideration.
David,
I think you could correct the formula to account for size by charging $1 per
pound of clay used to throw the piece.
L
The Balentines on sun 23 jun 02
Hi all,
Interesting formula David. I am going to try it out on my work just to
see how
I compare to your prices. I have very little overhead here also because of
my studio
being in my home basement. In the winter I heat with a wood stove so no
expense
there. I find for me what works are 2 things. First , I am constantly
looking at other
potter's work that is similiar in craftsmanship to mine to see what their
prices are.
And second , if I have a piece that is selling hot I keep increasing the
price until the
demand for this item slows a bit. This has been quite successful for me.
Susan in
the beautiful mountains of NC
1. $15 an hour for labor to make the piece. This includes all work done
while the piece is wet or drying, including painting slips and decoration.
It does not include any time spent after the piece is dry, such as
loading the kiln and glazing.
2. Double the cost to account for periphery labor such as making
glazes and firing the kiln, materials, and overhead, such as utilities. I
don't
pay rent, and there is no 'opportunity cost' to using the old farmhouse
because I would not rent it out if I weren't using it as a pottery shop.
3. Double the cost again to pay for time and overhead for selling the
work.
To simplify, the formula can also be stated as a flat $60 an hour, but
that makes it sound like you're really raking in the dough, which, of
course is not the case.
In practice, what I really do is use the formula 'backwards', and just check
and compare from time to time. For example, if I made 10 of my $36 bowls
and it took me 7 hours, I would multiply 10 bowls by $36 to get $360,
then divide by 4 (overhead and selling costs) to get $90,
then divide by 7 hours, to get $12.85.
This would tell me that the bowls are priced too low, and should really
be $42 (10 X $42 = $420, divided by 4 = $105, divided by 7 = $15).
I also take into account 'what the market will bear'. For me this means
that, for instance, I get less than $15 an hour for mugs and more than
$15 an hour for bowls. Again, that's OK, but I want to be aware of it.
I also abandon the model if I am trying totally new things. I consider
that more like research and development.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink
com.
Earl Brunner on sun 23 jun 02
Sure, but don't forget to adjust for inflation. Your 1973 dollar was worth $3.75
in 1999 the most recent date that the following site had available
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/bu2/inflateCPI.html
The 1973 $6.00 dollar mug should sell for $26.00 in 1999.
To say it another way, if we are selling mugs for $15.00 then we would have been
selling them for $4.00 in 1973. Or, if $6.00 was a fair price in 1973, then
anything less than $26.00 today has not kept up with inflation. Our work is
selling for less.
At least $3.75 every time you touch it.
"L. P. Skeen" wrote:
> > Now, for the amusement of all, here are the pricing guidelines my first
> pottery teacher told me in 1973:
> > His formula was to add one dollar every time you touch a piece.
> > So, a mug would be:
> > $1 to make the form
> > $1 to trim it
> > $1 to add the handle
> > $1 to bisque fire it
> > $1 to glaze it
> > $1 to glaze fire it
> > for a grand total of $6
> > I guess you could update this idea to use it today, but I think it has a
> flaw in not taking size into consideration.
>
> David,
>
> I think you could correct the formula to account for size by charging $1 per
> pound of clay used to throw the piece.
>
> L
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Earl Brunner on sun 23 jun 02
David, was $4.00 an hour a good wage in 1973? That's about where your $15.00 and
hour was in 1973.
I can't remember, I do know that I once thought $1000.00 per month was a good wage
for where I lived at the time (mid 70's).....
> David wrote:
>
> 1. $15 an hour for labor to make the piece. This includes all work done
> while the piece is wet or drying, including painting slips and decoration.
> It does not include any time spent after the piece is dry, such as
> loading the kiln and glazing.
>
> 2. Double the cost to account for periphery labor such as making
> glazes and firing the kiln, materials, and overhead, such as utilities. I
> don't
> pay rent, and there is no 'opportunity cost' to using the old farmhouse
> because I would not rent it out if I weren't using it as a pottery shop.
>
> 3. Double the cost again to pay for time and overhead for selling the
> work.
>
> To simplify, the formula can also be stated as a flat $60 an hour, but
> that makes it sound like you're really raking in the dough, which, of
> course is not the case.
>
> In practice, what I really do is use the formula 'backwards', and just check
> and compare from time to time. For example, if I made 10 of my $36 bowls
> and it took me 7 hours, I would multiply 10 bowls by $36 to get $360,
> then divide by 4 (overhead and selling costs) to get $90,
> then divide by 7 hours, to get $12.85.
> This would tell me that the bowls are priced too low, and should really
> be $42 (10 X $42
> I also take into account 'what the market will bear'. For me this means
> that, for instance, I get less than $15 an hour for mugs and more than
> $15 an hour for bowls. Again, that's OK, but I want to be aware of it.
> I also abandon the model if I am trying totally new things. I consider
> that more like research and development.
>
> _____________________________________________________________________________
>
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink
> com.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Anji Henderson on sun 23 jun 02
I just feel like being a smart A** ...
Maybe if you need money you can just sit there and
touch it?? Or what about adding a dollar each time you
have to pack it and un pack it -- your touching it !!
:)
Anji
--- "L. P. Skeen" wrote:
> > Now, for the amusement of all, here are the
> pricing guidelines my first
> pottery teacher told me in 1973:
> > His formula was to add one dollar every time you
> touch a piece.
> > So, a mug would be:
> > $1 to make the form
> > $1 to trim it
> > $1 to add the handle
> > $1 to bisque fire it
> > $1 to glaze it
> > $1 to glaze fire it
> > for a grand total of $6
> > I guess you could update this idea to use it
> today, but I think it has a
> flaw in not taking size into consideration.
>
>
> David,
>
> I think you could correct the formula to account for
> size by charging $1 per
> pound of clay used to throw the piece.
>
> L
=====
Good art does not have to match your sofa!!
-Fred Babb
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Nanci Bishof on sun 23 jun 02
If he was using $1 in 1973, you might adjust for its real spending power to
the 2002 dollar.
nanci
Bill Edwards on mon 24 jun 02
I think Tommy Humphries and Primal Mommy make good
sense. Its a real serious issue out there for some
artist to compete but thats where the years of
experience comes into play. I trained some students in
the past who can made things that look good to the eye
but upon close inspection the product is flawed. Not
always, but this reminded me of a few who were trying
to win in the pricing category and telling me how much
their materials suddenly were worth.
Close inspection to me showed several things.
Over-weighty, small cracks or poor joins among other
things. But yet they were excited they were selling in
the big league and making money. Once that money
started rolling in they had little use of the rest of
the information that was involved in being a tried and
true potter. That is the experience and timing, add to
that potter practicality and being on the road long
enough to know a market. Not only that but the
students were buying or using glaze formulaes that I
wrote or finding them elsewhere and suddenly they were
in business. I never tried to defeat that purpose but
I never would take any of them on as apprentices
unless I could feel their sincere zest for absolute
creativity. That first and marketing latter was and is
important to me. Of course I also found that taking on
an apprentice leads to serious issues as well once
they think they have all the answers.
What takes many years to gain is hard to re-teach to
anyone in a condensed format. Some pick it up well and
others think they do! Pricing and the value of a
product is subjective but its up to us to educate the
buyer as best as we can and make an attempt to bring
the product into focus. The artist behind the product
is part of that sale and thus it becomes a total
package.
Bill
http://www.tallapoosariverpottery.com/
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Janet Kaiser on mon 24 jun 02
$6 for a mug in 1973? That was truly quite a lot of money. I was a
student back in those days too. Comparative pricing was 50 cents for a
box of charcoal, $2 for a pitcher of beer and 99 cents for a burger
and fries. A new pair of Levi overalls cost $20 and a good quality
winter jacket from the Salvation Army $10 and they were major buys...
If I remember prices rightly? In which case, $6 for a mug was a
princely sum. Let us say $40 today. How many potters are attaining
that on average, I wonder?
Not being an economist, my equivalents probably do not correspond to
official inflation rates in the last 30 years and I may not have
recalled prices correctly, but the money we earn is for living and the
cost of living has increased up to 10-fold IMHO.
Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art / Capel Celfyddyd
Home of The International Potters' Path
8 Marine Crescent : Criccieth LL52 0EA : GB-Wales
Telephone: ++44 (0)1766-523570
URL: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
postbox@the-coa.org.uk
Steve Mills on tue 25 jun 02
I agree with David that costing is an essential formula from which the
maker has the right to deviate. My costing technique was taught to me by
an engineer customer who was horrified at my previous *guess-work*
process. It is quite structured (I said he was an engineer!) but worked
very well indeed.
Each material/process was timed & costed, a wild card factor built in to
allow for interruptions, plus allowances for gas, electricity, rent,
Bank charges, and amenity charges. Kiln firing costs (I twice fired in a
gas Kiln) were based on a whole kiln full of the one item, i.e. firing
cost including labour divided by the theoretical kiln full. The final
total was doubled to give me my wholesale price. Retail sales mark-up on
top of that was 40 percent; this was quite low, but was set there to
encourage private customers to buy direct (Retailers generally put on at
least 100 percent in their shops). Specials or One-Offs incurred a 25
percent mark-up, to compensate for the extra work involved, or as my
mentor put it: *The upkeep of the Imperial Carcass!*. Initially I spent
a little time in amongst the making getting used to it, but it paid off
in the end as I found I was making a living that supported a growing
family, and costing was eventually a second nature mental activity.
Eventually the Pottery Materials Supply side of the business appeared
and took over, I stopped taking orders, and I am now only making the
pots I want to make, and indulging my passion for fire!
If anyone would like a breakdown of my costing process, please contact
me off-list, I can supply it as either an MS Word or a PDF document.
Steve
Bath
UK
In message , David Hendley writes
>Here is the basis for how I price my pottery. It is a formula, but
>be aware that it is just a general guideline and I deviate from
>it all the time. It is perfectly OK to sell something for less or more
>than it should be according to the formula, but important to
>KNOW that you are doing it.
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
| |
|
