millenial_age on thu 11 jul 02
I have looked at all the sites which are posted in the Yahoo Group
Clayart archives and all I can say is that my meager attempts at
making clay vessels look more like kindergarden creations compared to
what I see out there.
While many things that I see inspire me, the work of Marta Ortiz
potters and the wonderful energy of Marta's pots. I guess it all
becomes a little discouraging.
After looking at the wealth of work out there are some selling for
the same prices I am charging for my work I feel like I am ripping
off the public.
I am considering not selling anything until I get better, except to
family and friends.
What I am really wondering is if there are other artists out there
that have been in a similar situation and what they did as far as
peddling what they considered imature work to the public?
Marta Matray Gloviczki on thu 11 jul 02
you wrote:
>>While many things that I see inspire me, the work of Marta Ortiz
>potters and the wonderful energy of Marta's pots. I guess it all
>becomes a little discouraging.<<
hi,
it is nice if you think that my work shows energy, but why would that
be discouraging for anyone? it maybe just tells you,(as it does for me,
when i see something i really like) that it can be done, so go for it!
>>I am considering not selling anything until I get better, except to
>family and friends.
>What I am really wondering is if there are other artists out there
>that have been in a similar situation and what they did as far as
>peddling what they considered imature work to the public?<<
>
my answer is: yes, yes, yes!
and my guess is, that this is normal, we all go throu this...
so, dont worry, be happy and make some more pots!
:-))
marta
Matt MacIntire on thu 11 jul 02
>> I guess it all becomes a little discouraging.
Few painters will ever paint as well as Matisse or Van Gogh. Does that
mean that no one else should ever try to make good paintings...? Of
course not. The prices their paintings sold for (during their lifetime)
had little to do with their ultimate value anyway.
The price that any work of art sells for is an enormously complex issue.
Some artists can charge more, some can charge less. The selling price
seems to have little to do with any inhearant beauty or value -- though
we would all wish otherwise.
My thinking is that you make pottery (or any art) because you want to,
maybe even because you NEED to. An artist finds out what they are
trying to make and say and does the best they can to make their art and
hopefully earn a living at the same time. The only way to make better
art is to keep making more art. One can only keep making art if they
have enough money. So an artist needs to sell their work.
Sell your pots for whatever you can. People will pay what they are
willing to pay. You can not cheat them. Bad movies and good movies
cost the same. Besides, a movie that you hate, I might really
enjoy for different reasons. There is no "right" price. It is too
personal and too dependant upon so many other factors. An artist should
charge as much as people are willing to pay. Charge more than that and
you won't sell. Charge less at your own peril.
(This ignores those few famous potters who wish to keep their prices low
so that folks can use their pots instead of locking them away. That is
another can of worms.)
If you are a potter, there will always be someone whose pots are
"better" than yours. If you are a runner, there will always be someone
who is faster. If you want to be attractive, there will always be
someone who looks better -- if not today, then some day soon. So, make
the best art that YOU can. That is the only real standard that we can
work towards.
A while back several folks here recommended a book called _Art_&_Fear_.
It is an interesting book that touches on some of these issues. You
might take a look...
hang in there!
Matt
Julie Milazzo on thu 11 jul 02
Steve,
I am very opinionated about this, and may receive
some hatemail, but for me, it's all about intent. As
long as you recognize that there's room to grow, and
that you want to grow, do what you need to do so that
you can get there. If it means doing shows to
financially support yourself, do it.
Do it, however, with the understanding that it is
another learning opportunity, and listen to your
customers. Watch them, see what they're drawn to. Meet
the other potters at the shows, and learn from them.
It's good that you're not happy with your work,
because many people find themselves complacent once
pieces start selling.
I did a show with a friend the other night, and
the potter next to us had glazed everything blue. It
was selling, regardless of the lack of proportion, and
craftsmanship, but not to the same people that were
buying our stuff. She had been teaching longer than
either my friend or myself had actually been potting,
but our stuff was of a higher quality. Why? Because we
both still feel like we've only tapped into a small
percent of what we can know, and it's knowing that
there's more out there than we will ever know that
keeps us thirsting for more. You possibly are like
that too.
I'm not trying to pass judgement on other
people's work, but there is room for everyone, and for
you. please remember that you are fairly new, and it
doesn't help to compare yourself to those who have
been on the path for a long time. Marta's pots? Yes,
amazing, but I'm sure it took her years and years to
get to that level. Thinking that that's where you
should be and getting discouraged is only going to
cause trouble, because you'll never feel good enough.
But you're probably amazing for where you are, because
you have an obvious passion for clay.
The best thing that has helped me, is to try and
stop comparing, and appreciate the differences in
people's work. If you can, start investing in some
pots of the people you admire. Nothing will teach you
more than holding and loving the pot of someone you
admire. Even if it's just little pieces like teabowls,
and coffee mugs, start a small collection. And don't
worry about your skill level. That will come. I think
we all have the same feelings like you do, and even
some of the gurus may have days like that, but I can't
speak for them, as I'm still years and years away...
Happy potting, and relax... Jules, in lovely St.
Helena SC, where the ten day Beaufort Water Festival
is gearing up tomorrow, and I'm out of pots! Aaaaargh!
--- millenial_age wrote:
> I have looked at all the sites which are posted in
> the Yahoo Group
> Clayart archives and all I can say is that my meager
> attempts at
> making clay vessels look more like kindergarden
> creations compared to
> what I see out there.
>
> While many things that I see inspire me, the work of
> Marta Ortiz
> potters and the wonderful energy of Marta's pots. I
> guess it all
> becomes a little discouraging.
> What I am really wondering is if there are other
> artists out there
> that have been in a similar situation and what they
> did as far as
> peddling what they considered imature work to the
> public?
>
>
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>
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> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
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Dewitt on thu 11 jul 02
At 10:15 7/11/02 -0400, Matt MacIntire wrote:
> >> I guess it all becomes a little discouraging.
Go buy 'Art & Fear' by Bayles and Orland. It was recommend on the group a
few months back and addresses just the issue you are feeling.
deg
Ned Ludd on thu 11 jul 02
> --- millenial_age millenial_age@YAHOO.COM wrote: I have looked at all
> the sites which are posted in the Yahoo Group Clayart archives and all I
> can say is that my meager attempts at making clay vessels look more like
> kindergarden creations compared to what I see out there. While many
> things that I see inspire me, the work of Marta Ortiz potters and the
> wonderful energy of Marta's pots. I guess it all becomes a little
> discouraging. What I am really wondering is if there are other artists
> out there that have been in a similar situation and what they did as far
> as peddling what they considered imature work to the public?
Dear Steve
Imagine at the outset of your pottery life that you are a toddler,
just learning to walk. Then you think: Hey, I'm learning fast!.. Now
I'll enter the New York Marathon!
The truth is, we ALL make duds in the first chapter of our lives with
clay, even if our mothers say they just _love_ our pots! After all,
that's what mothers and family are for.
Just keep or give a few to mom, trash the rest, back to work and -
look! - you're doing better!
The million dollar question: Do you want to be a semi-skilled potter
peddling craft crap for the rest of your life? Then don't start now!
At your stage it's all about learning, learning leaning, learning -
and enjoying it! It's got absolutely NOTHING to do with selling.
That's for later. Don't rush. And this precious time belongs only to
YOU - and your Muses!
Take care of your Muses, Steve.
Anybody who tells a beginning potter that their pots are ready to
market is LYING. Pardonable if it's their moms, but I'd briskly shoo
them out of my studio if I were you.
Please enjoy learning to be a proficient potter, and good luck!
Ned
- staying out of my 115 degree studio today
Stephani Stephenson on thu 11 jul 02
Millenial Wrote:
While many things that I see inspire me, I guess it allbecomes a
little discouraging....
.....I am considering not selling anything until I get better, except
tofamily and friends.
What I am really wondering is if there are other artists out there that
have been in a similar situation and what they did as far as
peddling what they considered imature work to the public?
Dear Milennial
When you get into a tailspin of doubt , and experience feelings that
your work pales by comparison
remember
IT IS BETWEEN YOU AND THE CLAY
that is the bottom line
As far as the rest?
Enjoy, appreciate and celebrate that work
which 'humbles' you.
Then go back to the studio
and continue your own work
strive to grow and improve it
with patience , determination and joy.
as far as showing 'immature' work?
Everyone traveler leaves a trail !!!!
Life is a Work in Progress.
Clay follows Life or is it
Life follows Clay?
If you have to wince and grimace every once and awhile
wince and grimace, but keep working and stretching and getting work out.
Whether you give pieces to family, or sell at markets, or show in
galleries
remember
IT IS BETWEEN YOU AND THE CLAY
Best wishes, many have experienced the feelings you describe !
Stephani Stephenson
Cindi Anderson on thu 11 jul 02
That's what I've come to believe also. But I do hate to fill landfills with
all my bad stuff. Anyone got a solution to that? Shard wall I guess...
Cindi
----- Original Message ----- >
> The million dollar question: Do you want to be a semi-skilled potter
> peddling craft crap for the rest of your life? Then don't start now!
>
> At your stage it's all about learning, learning leaning, learning -
> and enjoying it! It's got absolutely NOTHING to do with selling.
> That's for later. Don't rush.
>
> Anybody who tells a beginning potter that their pots are ready to
> market is LYING.
Imzadi . on thu 11 jul 02
There are two great passages from the book "Art & Fear" which is another
recent thread recommended and many of us are reading.
"Worse yet, expectations drift into fantasies all to easily. At a recent
writers' workshop, the instructor labored heroically to keep the discussion
centered upon the issues of craft (as yet unlearned), while the writers (as
yet unpublished) labored equally to divert the focus with questions about
royalties, movie rights and sequels."
"Talent may get some off the starting block faster, but without a sense of
direction or a goal to strive for, it won't count for much. The world is
filled with people who were given great natural gifts, sometimes
conspicuously flashy gifts, yet never produced anything. And when that
happens, the world soon ceases to care whether they are talented.
Even at best, talent remains a constant, and those who rely upon that
gift alone, without developing further, peak quickly and soon fade to
obscurity. Examples of genius only accentuate that truth. Newspapers love to
print stories about five-year-old musical prodigies giving solo recitals, but
you rarely read about one going on to become a Mozart. The point here is that
whatever his initial gift, Mozart was also an artist who learned to work on
his work, and thereby improved. In that respect he shares common ground with
the rest of us."
Just work on the work. If you are in it for the long haul, what is the rush?
If you put your work out too soon to be at a "selling" level before your
time, A) you may stunt your own artistic growth in focusing on work that is
readily sellable without you personal mark (yet to be developed) on it. B)
You may gain an easily recognizable reputation too early on, by buyers, as
lacking craftsmanship and skill, and they may never pick up your later works
to discover (and buy) that your tecnical experience has grown. They may
still expect it to look great from afar but be as heavy, clunky and not
well-articulated, etc. as before.
Enjoy the journey as it unfolds one step at a time.
Imzadi
Merrie Boerner on thu 11 jul 02
Tuesday I visited two potters in Natchez, MS.
Tom Hughes makes very nice, functional pots....has for 40 years. His studio
fits him. Most of the work space is outdoors, with his throwing and glaze
making space under the house, where it is cool. He produces !
Collin Burns uses porcelain and has the cleanest, most well equipped private
studio that I have ever seen. He worked at Steven Hill's, and his work is
beautiful, delicate, and wonderful.
I came home humbly wondering, "What did I learn, and how can I be more like
these guys ?!?"
That night, I had a scotch in Collin's teabowl.....fondled it, .....smooth,
and light.
The next morning, I had coffee in Tom's mug......fondled it,.......nice rim,
attractive glaze, delightful.
I realized how nice it is that I don't even TRY to make pots like theirs ! I
felt re-assured that I was on my OWN path with clay......never satisfied,
but who is ?
People who bought my first 10 years of work tell me to this day....."I still
just love those heavy, primitive pots ! They have such character." If you
go to "search the archives" and type in "Potter's Presence" December
1999......you will find 9 stimulating posts.
Good luck in your endeavor,
Merrie
Steve Mills on fri 12 jul 02
I think the most important thing to remember, is that we all have a
voice, beginner or expert, young or old. Try not to view of the work of
others as discouraging, but as a standard to aim for, and above all
revel in the joy of creating. Quite frankly, I draw a great deal from
the work of others, and explore shapes that they have created in order
to find out how they did it. As my exploration continues, I find that
the end result is very different from what I first observed, and has
become my own. This is not plagiarism, it is the basic lesson in
learning to be yourself.
As far as pricing is concerned, if someone wants to buy your pots, don't
feel guilty, be proud. It means that they have seen something in them
that you are too close to them to see. Just keep your standards high
and aim the above them.
Steve
Bath
UK
In message , millenial_age writes
>I have looked at all the sites which are posted in the Yahoo Group
>Clayart archives and all I can say is that my meager attempts at
>making clay vessels look more like kindergarden creations compared to
>what I see out there.
>
>While many things that I see inspire me, the work of Marta Ortiz
>potters and the wonderful energy of Marta's pots. I guess it all
>becomes a little discouraging.
>
>After looking at the wealth of work out there are some selling for
>the same prices I am charging for my work I feel like I am ripping
>off the public.
>
>I am considering not selling anything until I get better, except to
>family and friends.
>
>What I am really wondering is if there are other artists out there
>that have been in a similar situation and what they did as far as
>peddling what they considered imature work to the public?
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Rebecca Knight on fri 12 jul 02
Cindi Anderson wrote:
That's what I've come to believe also. But I do hate to fill landfills with
all my bad stuff. Anyone got a solution to that? Shard wall I guess...
I've pondered this same thing. I think what I'm going to do is break up
some of the pots and mosaic regular terra cotta pots with shards. I have a
lot of planters on my porch (no yard, just two porches) and this would add
texture and color to the plantings and I would feel I'd done something more
useful with the pots other than creating landfill. I'll have to get a book
or something, though, because I've never done this.
Has anyone tried this?
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Michele Williams on sat 13 jul 02
One question for all those who think their work is "immature", imperfect,
etc., and are afraid to try selling.
Do you think the first Picasso was his best? Renoir? Rembrandt? Tisane?
Gucci? Any name you can name was once a no-name. Keep 3 things in mind.
New.
Original.
Innovative.
Enough with imitation of what's been done to death......whatever anybody
does in pottery is the first time it's ever been done and it isn't going to
happen exactly like that again, even if your name is Mel.
So you made something. Was it good enough to think of selling? Chances are
somebody will like it. Grin, present it, sell it, and be happy about being
able to make somebody happy with whatever it is you make. You should see
how happy my niece is with broken seashells in her sandbox. She likes her
Factory-made just-like-all-the-other dolls but she likes my handmade doll
best. My mom has 20-25 factory-made vases, but the vase she picks up and
turns round and round is the one I carved ferns into and sent to her as a
surprise. My father always cherished that hand-carved what's-it he found at
a garage sale. Wore a hole right through the middle rubbing it during the
exciting parts of TV shows.
If you have put heart into it, someone else will put money into it. If you
haven't sold it from home, it's time to take it to market.
One other piece of advice. The work doesn't always sell itself. Selling
takes practice. Don't blame lack of sales on the product every time.....
Michele Williams
Who'd sell if I had a way to make enough to sell
Patty Potter on sun 14 jul 02
It sure is humbling, Steve, but I find it encouraging rather than discouraging. I've been into pottery for only six months, so you can imagine the poor quality of my work--even though my family are speechless at the "great pieces" I make.
I once even had a fit of anger and frustration when I wasn't able to produce what was on my mind. That moment was a waste of time and energy, but one is human after all. Most of the time I try to have a positive attitude and see every piece as one more step towards my goal: becoming a good potter. And when I look into my fellow clayarters' websites I see a lot of talent and I imagine it's not only talent but also a lot of hard work. I find especially inspirational a phrase that someone here (sorry, I can't remember the name) uses as part of their signature line; something to the effect that he used to do what the clay wanted, then he learnt to force clay to do what he wanted, and now they cooperate.
On another subject, my husband's making me a kickwheel. (I'm the one who asked for advice some time ago as to the pros and cons of kickwheels vs. electric wheels.) We're still living in a flat (an apartment) so it will go in the kitchen. We've moved the kitchen table into the spare bedroom. It's rather crazy, but I'm so thrilled. I'll now be able to do some practice at home during weekdays when I get back from the office! Goes without mention I'll take especial care of hygiene, wet-mopping, etc., after all I've read about the risks of our work.
Pat
PS: Jorge, the weather is much nicer in Buenos Aires today, so I imagine you're enjoying your throwing.
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