Earl Brunner on wed 31 jul 02
Gallery director may even be playing you in the middle, or maybe he noticed it and
brought it up in conversation with the other artist, seeing him first. If it
actually happened as you described it, then I agree with you about the lack of
professionalism on the part of the other artist.
Question is do his all actually ring compared to yours? I mean is this really a
fact? I never thought considered that as a requirement for raku pots, given the
sudden temperature changes that they go through. From a Gallery directors point of
view I can see where he might be swayed by the argument, especially when he has to
consider product liability.
"Kenneth J. Nowicki" wrote:
> Hi friends,
>
> I've been meaning to ask you guys for some feedback on this for a long time,
> but never got around to it until now. Here's the deal.
>
> I had been selling my raku vessels on consignment through El Prado Galleries
> (there are several in Arizona & New Mexico) fairly successfully for about a
> year. One afternoon while visiting New Mexico, I was talking to manager of
> the El Prado Gallery in Santa Fe I had a very interesting, yet disturbing
> conversation... one that left me almost speechless... and unable to come up
> with a perfectly explainable response.
>
> During the course of a conversation, he asked me why my pots don't "ring"
> then thumped on the rim of the vessels? ("thumped" meaning flicked with your
> finger). I was quite taken aback, because nobody had ever asked me this
> before. What apparently brought on the inquiry stemmed from the manager's
> previous conversation with a new raku artist that was just brought on board.
> This "new raku artist" that was recently added to the gallery's staff of
> artists had told the gallery manager, in so many words... that his pots were
> far superior to mine because when flicked on the rim with your finger, his
> pots "rang"... and mine must've been made inferior... because when flicked
> only gave a dull "thud".
>
> I was astounded at this... for few reasons. Firstly, just out of
> professionalism... I would never bash a fellow artist who was being
> represented in the same gallery as me, even if I did think there was
> something about his/her work that was inferior to mine. Secondly, as mistaken
> as I feel this artist was in his theory on raku pots that "ring", he had now
> misinformed the gallery manager (who clearly knew very little about raku
> pottery) who had now been left predispositioned to "push" selling his work
> over mine... all under what the pretense of what I believe was a load of
> horse crap.
>
> By the way, my response to the gallery manager was that raku pots are fired
> to very low temperatures, and most of the time, depending on the clay body...
> those temperatures leave the vessel fired to an unvitrified state. I
> explained that I used a white stoneware clay body that was designed for Cone
> 10 temperatures, and therefore once finished firing in the raku glaze fire...
> it was left in an unvitrified state, hence... the "thudding" type sound when
> tapped with a finger on the rim. I said that possibly, the other artist's
> vessels were made from a much lower temperature clay body, allowing full or
> partial vitrification during the raku glaze firing... which could be the
> reason his had more of a "ring" to them when tapped verses my pots. I tried
> to explain that this made them no better or no worse than mine as best I
> could... but clearly... I don't think the manager believed me 100% when I was
> finished. Seems the damage had already been done, and he's already made up
> his mind.
>
> So tell me... was I "on track" with my thinking and response? What would have
> been your response? Do you think this "ringing" verses "thudding" phenomena
> is all about clay body types and vitrification? I'd love to hear your
> opinions on this matter.
>
> I guess what upsetted me most was that I didn't have "the perfect"
> explanation at the time, or at least didn't leave the gallery manager
> understanding and believing what I said. I think he thought I was just trying
> to pull a fast one on him or something. And to tell you the truth, what
> really pissed me off was that a fellow raku artist was so misinformed about
> what makes a good raku pot and what doesn't... and then proceeded to fill
> this galley manager's head with such ludicrous ideas. Bottom line... my pots
> still sold... but I wonder how many customers were taken to "see" his pots...
> before they were shown mine... Hmmmm...
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Ken
>
> Kenneth J. Nowicki
> Port Washington, NY
> RakuArtist@aol.com
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Tony Ferguson on wed 31 jul 02
Barb,
Make sure your body for raku is open--wedge grog, or sand into to open the
pores up.
Thank you.
Tony Ferguson
Stoneware, Porcelain, Raku
www.aquariusartgallery.com
218-727-6339
315 N. Lake Ave
Apt 312
Duluth, MN 55806
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara Mueller"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: Do your raku pots "ring" when thumped?
> What clays would people recommend for raku? Taking 8 days out of the
> normal schedule and doing clay week with a friend who is coming to stay
> out at the lake with me. Our plan is to throw, bisque and on the last
> day fire in a raku kiln that we will make. When I asked my friend what
> type of clay I should have on hand she said she uses anything. I use
> mostly Laguna midrange clay bodies. Has anyone had any experience with
> these and can make a recommendation. I have on hand Porcelain 5, Red
> Calico, Morracian Sand, SB Red.
>
> Would appreciate any suggestions.
> Barb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On
> Behalf Of Paul Gerhold
> Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 9:23 AM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Do your raku pots "ring" when thumped?
>
> Ken,
> Given two pots of equal esthetic value I would probably say that the
> pot
> that rang was the better pot since it was most likely more vitrified and
> thus
> more likely to survive the test of time.
>
> I would also say that since no two artists work is the same that your
> competitor was way out of line, probably not very honest and that the
> gallery
> person should learn something about pottery if he is going to be in the
> business.
>
> On the other hand if you are really using a cone 10 body for raku your
> pots
> could be a lot more fragile than they have to be.
> Paul
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Kenneth J. Nowicki on wed 31 jul 02
Hi friends,
I've been meaning to ask you guys for some feedback on this for a long time,
but never got around to it until now. Here's the deal.
I had been selling my raku vessels on consignment through El Prado Galleries
(there are several in Arizona & New Mexico) fairly successfully for about a
year. One afternoon while visiting New Mexico, I was talking to manager of
the El Prado Gallery in Santa Fe I had a very interesting, yet disturbing
conversation... one that left me almost speechless... and unable to come up
with a perfectly explainable response.
During the course of a conversation, he asked me why my pots don't "ring"
then thumped on the rim of the vessels? ("thumped" meaning flicked with your
finger). I was quite taken aback, because nobody had ever asked me this
before. What apparently brought on the inquiry stemmed from the manager's
previous conversation with a new raku artist that was just brought on board.
This "new raku artist" that was recently added to the gallery's staff of
artists had told the gallery manager, in so many words... that his pots were
far superior to mine because when flicked on the rim with your finger, his
pots "rang"... and mine must've been made inferior... because when flicked
only gave a dull "thud".
I was astounded at this... for few reasons. Firstly, just out of
professionalism... I would never bash a fellow artist who was being
represented in the same gallery as me, even if I did think there was
something about his/her work that was inferior to mine. Secondly, as mistaken
as I feel this artist was in his theory on raku pots that "ring", he had now
misinformed the gallery manager (who clearly knew very little about raku
pottery) who had now been left predispositioned to "push" selling his work
over mine... all under what the pretense of what I believe was a load of
horse crap.
By the way, my response to the gallery manager was that raku pots are fired
to very low temperatures, and most of the time, depending on the clay body...
those temperatures leave the vessel fired to an unvitrified state. I
explained that I used a white stoneware clay body that was designed for Cone
10 temperatures, and therefore once finished firing in the raku glaze fire...
it was left in an unvitrified state, hence... the "thudding" type sound when
tapped with a finger on the rim. I said that possibly, the other artist's
vessels were made from a much lower temperature clay body, allowing full or
partial vitrification during the raku glaze firing... which could be the
reason his had more of a "ring" to them when tapped verses my pots. I tried
to explain that this made them no better or no worse than mine as best I
could... but clearly... I don't think the manager believed me 100% when I was
finished. Seems the damage had already been done, and he's already made up
his mind.
So tell me... was I "on track" with my thinking and response? What would have
been your response? Do you think this "ringing" verses "thudding" phenomena
is all about clay body types and vitrification? I'd love to hear your
opinions on this matter.
I guess what upsetted me most was that I didn't have "the perfect"
explanation at the time, or at least didn't leave the gallery manager
understanding and believing what I said. I think he thought I was just trying
to pull a fast one on him or something. And to tell you the truth, what
really pissed me off was that a fellow raku artist was so misinformed about
what makes a good raku pot and what doesn't... and then proceeded to fill
this galley manager's head with such ludicrous ideas. Bottom line... my pots
still sold... but I wonder how many customers were taken to "see" his pots...
before they were shown mine... Hmmmm...
Best wishes,
Ken
Kenneth J. Nowicki
Port Washington, NY
RakuArtist@aol.com
ASHPOTS@AOL.COM on wed 31 jul 02
Ken ,, when i was doing RAKU my pots did NOT ring.. Ive been looking at a lot
of Shino pots that dont ring either, including some Shino pots i made... My
Ash glazed pots ring.. thanks for that..
just my opion
Mark
Snail Scott on wed 31 jul 02
At 11:53 AM 7/31/02 EDT, you wrote:
>This "new raku artist" that was recently added to the gallery's staff of
>artists had told the gallery manager, in so many words... that his pots were
>far superior to mine because when flicked on the rim with your finger, his
>pots "rang"... and mine must've been made inferior... because when flicked
>only gave a dull "thud".
I have to admit, I also tend to take 'ring' as an indication
of the strength of a piece. It indicates a higher level of
vitrification, which is often (though not always) a sign of
hardness. It also indicates that the piece is not cracked.
With raku, many pieces suffer from a near-cobweb of microcracks
(if not actual big cracks) as a result of thermal shock,
especially if the body is near vitrification. This is why, as
you mentioned, many raku artists choose to underfire high-fire
clay. Others avoid the problem by using clay which contains
materials resistant to thermal shock, which allows the clay
to be fired closer to its vitrification point. Pieces made of
such clays have more of a 'ring' to them. I have always
assumed that such a piece would be stronger, also, since the
sound testifies that the piece is both somewhat vitrified and
not cracked. All of this is just my assumption, though. Any
actual information, pro or con, would be welcome.
-Snail
Paul Gerhold on wed 31 jul 02
Ken,
Given two pots of equal esthetic value I would probably say that the pot
that rang was the better pot since it was most likely more vitrified and thus
more likely to survive the test of time.
I would also say that since no two artists work is the same that your
competitor was way out of line, probably not very honest and that the gallery
person should learn something about pottery if he is going to be in the
business.
On the other hand if you are really using a cone 10 body for raku your pots
could be a lot more fragile than they have to be.
Paul
Marta Matray Gloviczki on wed 31 jul 02
ken,
if i walk into that gallery and want to buy a raku pot, i am going to buy
one which i like the most. i look for its form and color-
it can ring or sing or do whatever tricks, if i dont like its looks, i am
not going to buy it.
i can understand the importance of proper vitrification in a functional
pot, but i dont see much reason for it when talking about a raku piece.
dont worry, if people will prefer your raku vessels, they will choose them
over your colleauge`s.
marta
Imzadi . on wed 31 jul 02
Ken, unfortunately, while you may have used precise, correct scientific
information to explain the differences between your pots and the other
artist, that we clay people know about and understand, your explanation still
put you at a disadvantage. Your explanation still made it seem somehow that
your pots were LESS that the other artists's.
<< By the way, my response to the gallery manager was that raku pots are fired
to very low temperatures, and most of the time, depending on the clay body...
those temperatures leave the vessel fired to an unvitrified state. I
explained that I used a white stoneware clay body that was designed for Cone
10 temperatures, and therefore once finished firing in the raku glaze fire...
it was left in an unvitrified state, hence... the "thudding" type sound when
tapped with a finger on the rim. I said that possibly, the other artist's
vessels were made from a much lower temperature clay body, allowing full or
partial vitrification during the raku glaze firing... >>
When you say the word "vitrified" to a non ceramic person, even in the
act of explaining it, it is like unrelateable medical jargon or techo-babble
to them. In the end, he doesn't care if your pots are vitri-what? All he
heard was, "My pots are NOT something or other while this other artist's pots
ARE that something or other." You weren't comparing foodsafe dinnerware (that
needs to be vitirifed) to raku. it wasn't a word he needed to know at that
moment. Both your pots and the other artist's would still be used the same
way in the end, unless that other artist was also saying his work is
waterproof too.
<< but clearly... I don't think the manager believed me 100% when I was
finished. Seems the damage had already been done, and he's already made up
his mind.>>
The gallery owner wanted something concretely measurable - as in a thump or a
ring - that he could understand, have certainty about - and even repeat to
customers. He's not going into a long explanation about vitrified vs
non-vitrified if a customer asks him why yours doesn't thump. He's worried
that the customers will look at him and ask "Why are you even selling
something that's not fully baked?" He doesn't want to then have to go into
the whole process of what raku firing is about. it isn't a ceramic class, he
just wants to sell pots. They just want to buy pots.
Use a metaphor (something easily understandable to anyone) when telling them
about your work.
The gallery owner wants certainty about your work COMPARED to the other
artist. He is probably thinking, "Which would I rather buy or sell? Half
baked bread or fully baked bread?"
If you use the bread metaphor and compare the the type of ingredients (clay)
used as: IT"S LIKE: my clay has more nuts, whole grains, seeds, raisins
(grog) in it, etc. that makes it a denser, heavier loaf of bread. Ever pick
up a natural, honey 7 grain loaf of bread? It is heartier, heavier, denser,
has a strong, solid thumping quality to it.
WHEREAS the other artist used a lighter, fluffier bread dough, that makes
his bread come out like Wonder bread or a flakey croissant, both made with
more air. OF COURSE, his bread is going to have more "ringing" in it!
But just as neither bread is better or worse than the other, it's just the
ingredients used to get different end results and effects..."
Then start positively pointing out and comparing visual differences (to
get the owner away from the audio thumping comparison.)
"Notice how his piece has more red, orange, has a smoother feel here,
that's more of going for a croissant quality, whereas my pots have denser,
richer black tones, that's from the clay being able really absorb the smoke
while firing..."
That's something the gallery owner and customers can easily relate to,
and something with confidence he can repeat to his customers and also point
out POSITIVE differences in style about.
Plus, to your credit, YOU won't be bashing the other artist's work, without
putting down your own work in the comparison. THAT will actually go a longer
way with the gallery owner in the long run.
Whenever you use a metaphor, always use: "IT"S LIKE..." Try to relate an
unknown (even in explaining vitrification) to something they already know
about and can easily relate to. They will more likely remember the metaphor
than vitri-something.
Hope this helps.
Imzadi
Barbara Mueller on wed 31 jul 02
What clays would people recommend for raku? Taking 8 days out of the
normal schedule and doing clay week with a friend who is coming to stay
out at the lake with me. Our plan is to throw, bisque and on the last
day fire in a raku kiln that we will make. When I asked my friend what
type of clay I should have on hand she said she uses anything. I use
mostly Laguna midrange clay bodies. Has anyone had any experience with
these and can make a recommendation. I have on hand Porcelain 5, Red
Calico, Morracian Sand, SB Red.
Would appreciate any suggestions.
Barb
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On
Behalf Of Paul Gerhold
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 9:23 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Do your raku pots "ring" when thumped?
Ken,
Given two pots of equal esthetic value I would probably say that the
pot
that rang was the better pot since it was most likely more vitrified and
thus
more likely to survive the test of time.
I would also say that since no two artists work is the same that your
competitor was way out of line, probably not very honest and that the
gallery
person should learn something about pottery if he is going to be in the
business.
On the other hand if you are really using a cone 10 body for raku your
pots
could be a lot more fragile than they have to be.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________
______
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Craig Clark on wed 31 jul 02
Ken, some of my pots ring a bit and others don't. I'm not overly
concerned either way as long as they are structurally sound. Of more concern
to me is whether or not the glazes that I use will fade.
Now I'm not saying that one that gives off a dull thud when subjected to
the thump test will make it to market either. I believe that there is a
considerable amount of leeway when it comes to Raku. The pieces are not ever
to be used for utilitarian purposes (meaning as service for food or drink)
and because of this vitrification of the clay body is not crucial. Infact, I
can't say that I've ever come across a piece of raku that is vitrified (this
doesn't mean that there aren't fully vitrified examples of raku out there
though. I am merely stating for the record that I have not come across any)
It has been my experience that people who purchase raku do it for
esthetic reasons. I don't recall anyone ever thumping one of my pots to
determine if there was a ring or not. This is a quick test that I will
perform when I think there might be a crack that I'm just not seeing. If
there is a dull thud then chances are the piece is cracked.
Concerning the yahoo that spooked the gallery owner by ringing his pot
in an attempt to curry favor and discredit others don't waste your time
arguing. If you have a good working relationship with the gallery owner then
keep it as such. If you don't then there is probably nothing that you can
say that will make a difference.
Take the time to educate the owner about the technical
aspects of raku and clay. Rather than just being able to ring a pot for a
potential customer he will then be able to speak to them with a modicum of
expertiese about the medium rather than just putting on a show.The process
itself, and the few words of jargon involved, really isn't that difficult to
convey.
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
mudman@hal-pc.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Snail Scott"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: Do your raku pots "ring" when thumped?
> At 11:53 AM 7/31/02 EDT, you wrote:
>
> >This "new raku artist" that was recently added to the gallery's staff of
> >artists had told the gallery manager, in so many words... that his pots
were
> >far superior to mine because when flicked on the rim with your finger,
his
> >pots "rang"... and mine must've been made inferior... because when
flicked
> >only gave a dull "thud".
>
>
> I have to admit, I also tend to take 'ring' as an indication
> of the strength of a piece. It indicates a higher level of
> vitrification, which is often (though not always) a sign of
> hardness. It also indicates that the piece is not cracked.
> With raku, many pieces suffer from a near-cobweb of microcracks
> (if not actual big cracks) as a result of thermal shock,
> especially if the body is near vitrification. This is why, as
> you mentioned, many raku artists choose to underfire high-fire
> clay. Others avoid the problem by using clay which contains
> materials resistant to thermal shock, which allows the clay
> to be fired closer to its vitrification point. Pieces made of
> such clays have more of a 'ring' to them. I have always
> assumed that such a piece would be stronger, also, since the
> sound testifies that the piece is both somewhat vitrified and
> not cracked. All of this is just my assumption, though. Any
> actual information, pro or con, would be welcome.
>
> -Snail
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Cindi Anderson on thu 1 aug 02
Everyone I have ever seen do raku uses Cone 10 clay. If lower fire clays
are stronger because they are more vitified, do you know why so many people
use Cone 10 clays for raku? I assumed it was more tolerant of the thermal
shock but maybe that's not true?
Cindi
Snail Scott on thu 1 aug 02
At 01:49 AM 8/1/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Everyone I have ever seen do raku uses Cone 10 clay. If lower fire clays
>are stronger because they are more vitified, do you know why so many people
>use Cone 10 clays for raku? I assumed it was more tolerant of the thermal
>shock but maybe that's not true?
It is more tolerant of thermal shock, because it won't
vitrify at raku temperatures (or at the bisque
temperatures that usually precede the actual raku
firing).It's readily available, and in schools, it
allows the class to do raku using a clay that may
already be in usefor other purposes. I know of a
number of schools that would prefer to have no lower-
firing clays, to avoid messy accidents due to confusion.
Some even even teach earthenware techniques using
underfired ^10 clay, for the same reason. So, a lot
of the students go out into the 'real world' assuming
that ^10 clay is the only option for raku. It does
work pretty well, but it won't be as strong as a clay
which is closer to vitrification. Ordinary lower-fire
clays won't work, because their vitrification makes
them vulnerable to thermal shock, so a clay that
contains anti-thermal-shock materials is necessary,
and these are less commonly available.
Raku made with ^10 clay isn't necessarily less well-
made, or less artistic, but all else being equal,
I think stronger is better. S**t happens!
I occasionally earn extra $$ by working in a local
gallery/gift shop in the tourist area of town. We
carry raku work by several artists. I don't know
if anyone has ever failed to buy a piece because
they were afraid of breakage. I know I am, though,
when they ask to have their purchase packed to take
on the plane with them. I've never previously thought
to compare the vitrification of the various pieces
in the gallery, but I doubt it would matter; people
buy what they like to look at. Still, wouldn't it be
nice if everyone made it home with their new treasure
intact?
-Snail
Les Haworth on thu 1 aug 02
I mostly use two clay bodies that I find work well with the Raku process.
Laguna Clays WC-389 WSO and WC-549 Raku Industrial. The WSO is a White cone
10 body thats excellent for Raku. And the Raku Industrial is a light gray/
tan cone 06 body. Both of these clay bodies are formulated to withstand the
extremes of the Raku process. Another favorite of mine is the standard
Soldate 60. It's really a great all purpose clay that is excellent for
beginners as well as advanced. I have used all of these clay bodies in the
past and they have performed well.
Lester R. Haworth III
Sales and Technical Support
Laguna Clay Co.
14400 Lomitas ave
City of Industry, CA 91746
1(800) 4-LAGUNA ext. 229
(626)330-0631 ext. 229
les@lagunaclay.com
www.lagunaclay.com
The fire is my faithful servant and my demanding master. My most brilliant
collaborator and my harshest critic.
~David Hendley
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