Jeff Longtin on tue 27 aug 02
>And as I am sure you will agree, graduate school is charged with so much
>information and idea - it is bound to be a life-changing experience for
>anyone who makes the most of the opportunity.
Just a thought:
While grad school can be a life changing experience so too can life be a life
changing experience. If you have the guts go out and change your life.
Period!
If you're expecting grad school to "change" your life AND change your work
forget it. Save yourself the money!
Go out and change your life in a way you never thought possible before.
Period.
Grad school is for chicken shits who never tried to make it on their own.
Try to make it on your own doing what ever-the hell you wanted to do in the
first place. Find out how people respond. Listen to people.
Either you want to make work that looks good on a resume or you want to make
work that moves people.
I, for one, want to make work that moves people. Period. Work that gets
people excited, period. No piece of paper s going to get me to that point. I,
and my experiences, WILL!
The great artists of the world didn't become GREAT artists because of some
stupid grad program. No! They became great artists because they had the
courage to live life, follow their dreams, and deal with the consequences.
Great art is not about being creative. Great art is about dealing with the
consequences, dealing with your life, and dealing with the complications!
People connect with great art because Iit connects with THEIR life DIG! Make
art that reflects your frustrations, your struggles, your victories, and you
will make art that people can relate to, people will understand, people will
cherish!
It's simple really: either you think great art comes from a book ( or a great
grad program) or you think great art comes from life. I, for one, think great
art comes from life, period!
Live a great life (take risks, do the unexpected, challenge yourself) and you
will make great art, its that simple!
Here's to the one percent of the people, of the list, who didn't go to grad
school, who dropped out of college, and who struggle to make art a daily
occurence!
Jeff Longtin
In a message dated 8/27/02 9:16:26 PM Central Daylight Time,
vpitelka@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:
> And as I am sure you will agree, graduate school is charged with so much
> information and idea - it is bound to be a life-changing experience for
> anyone who makes the most of the opportunity.
Tom's E-mail on tue 27 aug 02
Not having an MFA and being somewhat of a hobbyist potter, I have =
hesitated to voice an opinion. At age 60 when I graduated from law =
school, I had spent 30 years in school or training that included grade =
school, high school, college, medical school and residencies in OB-GYN, =
Radiology & Oncology. I have always held to the opinion that learning =
just about anything is valuable. Learning art, it seems to me, can be =
done in a variety of ways from being self taught to participating in an =
apprenticeship capacity to an MFA program. It also appears to me to be =
self evident that there is not a superior method for everyone. =
Therefore, I don't understand the sweeping denigrations of any method =
because another has been successful for the writer/speaker. It is also =
apparent that not everyone is capable of teaching themselves to the =
extent that they become great artist, that there are bad apprenticeships =
and horrible MFA programs. I believe that an MFA program can offer an =
exchange of ideas that many would otherwise miss because of =
provincialism that can arise out of isolation occurring in =
apprenticeship programs or for the person that is self taught. I guess =
one could argue that medical school and law school are a silly waste of =
time because a person might teach themselves or take an apprenticeship =
with a practicing professional. No doubt in some cases this could be =
successful but I believe that when I get sick, I'll stick with graduates =
of medical schools and when in need of legal assistance I will seek =
assistance from a graduate of law school. Just my opinion.
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
vince pitelka on wed 28 aug 02
Rebecca wrote:
"That said, I cannot agree with Vince that those who set their hearts and
minds to it can find teaching positions. I believe in his milieu he meets
only those who have succeeded at this and not the hundreds if not thousands
of others who have not. It is like saying a person does not make much money
because he does not work hard enough."
Rebecca -
I am sorry to be so persistent on this, but I really want people who wish to
become university educators to feel encouraged to pursue that career. We
need more committed, determined people in the field.
And of course I would not base on such strong opinions on having experience
with only those who have succeeded, as you imply above. I base it on very
wide observation of many people who have found teaching jobs and many others
who have not. It is the comparison between the two that provides me with my
proof. No matter what you might think, it really is as simple as it sounds.
If a person with true, honest commitment to the teaching profession makes
the most of graduate school, and then follows up with a full-time blend of
part-time teaching, residencies, art-making, exhibitions, publishing
(articles and/or books, etc.), they will eventually land a tenure-track
teaching job. It is certainly much more difficult to achieve than it was
thirty years ago, when virtually anyone with an MFA got a teaching job right
out of grad school, but the system really does work.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@worldnet.att.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Rebecca P on wed 28 aug 02
Jeff said: >Here's to the one percent of the people, of the list, who didn't go to grad school, who dropped out of college, and who struggle to make art a daily occurence!
As part of the one percent you mention, I thank you for the toast, Jeff. I appreciate your recognition of the struggle.
I also agree that ">While grad school can be a life changing experience so too can life be a life changing experience. If you have the guts go out and change your life." And: " >Go out and change your life in a way you never thought possible before... >Great art is about dealing with the consequences, dealing with your life, and dealing with the complications...People connect with great art because it connects with THEIR life...Make art that reflects your frustrations, your struggles, your victories, and you will make art that people can relate to, people will understand, people will cherish!...Live a great life (take risks, do the unexpected, challenge yourself) and you will make great art..."
However, I believe all this can be done in addition to receiving the benefits of education. If I had had the opportunity, I most likely would have pursued that course in addition to taking risks in my life. I am by nature a risk taker. Pursuing the MFA could very well fall into the category of taking a risk
That said, I cannot agree with Vince that those who set their hearts and minds to it can find teaching positions. I believe in his milieu he meets only those who have succeeded at this and not the hundreds if not thousands of others who have not. It is like saying a person does not make much money because he does not work hard enough.
In any case, let us not look down our noses at each other because we do or do not have education or life experiences. We are all in this together, and we are in it because we choose to be however we got here.
Best,
Rebecca Pierre
Oak Island, NC, where the beaches face south so that, at certain times f the year, one can watch the sun rise and set over the water.
From: Jeff Longtin
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: MFA or no MFA?...NOT
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 23:07:31 EDT
>
> >And as I am sure you will agree, graduate school is charged with so much
> >information and idea - it is bound to be a life-changing experience for
> >anyone who makes the most of the opportunity.
>
>Just a thought:
>
>While grad school can be a life changing experience so too can life be a life
>changing experience. If you have the guts go out and change your life.
>Period!
>If you're expecting grad school to "change" your life AND change your work
>forget it. Save yourself the money!
>Go out and change your life in a way you never thought possible before.
>Period.
>Grad school is for chicken shits who never tried to make it on their own.
>Try to make it on your own doing what ever-the hell you wanted to do in the
>first place. Find out how people respond. Listen to people.
>Either you want to make work that looks good on a resume or you want to make
>work that moves people.
>I, for one, want to make work that moves people. Period. Work that gets
>people excited, period. No piece of paper s going to get me to that point. I,
>and my experiences, WILL!
>
>The great artists of the world didn't become GREAT artists because of some
>stupid grad program. No! They became great artists because they had the
>courage to live life, follow their dreams, and deal with the consequences.
>Great art is not about being creative. Great art is about dealing with the
>consequences, dealing with your life, and dealing with the complications!
>
>People connect with great art because Iit connects with THEIR life DIG! Make
>art that reflects your frustrations, your struggles, your victories, and you
>will make art that people can relate to, people will understand, people will
>cherish!
>
>It's simple really: either you think great art comes from a book ( or a great
>grad program) or you think great art comes from life. I, for one, think great
>art comes from life, period!
>
>Live a great life (take risks, do the unexpected, challenge yourself) and you
>will make great art, its that simple!
>
>Here's to the one percent of the people, of the list, who didn't go to grad
>school, who dropped out of college, and who struggle to make art a daily
>occurence!
>
>Jeff Longtin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>In a message dated 8/27/02 9:16:26 PM Central Daylight Time,
>vpitelka@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:
>
>
> > And as I am sure you will agree, graduate school is charged with so much
> > information and idea - it is bound to be a life-changing experience for
> > anyone who makes the most of the opportunity.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
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Lori Leary on wed 28 aug 02
You know, Jeff...... I rarely respond to bullshit on Clayart like yours, but
I felt a little cranky after reading your post this morning.
I start school tonight.... chickenshit school. And I am thrilled to do so.
I will be working hard the next few years....not only as a chickenshit
student, but as a mom, a wife, a nurse, and a working artist......a
balancing act NOT for the faint-hearted.
So....why don't you reserve your postings to Clayart for things you actually
know something about.
Bock-Bock-phhht-fully yours,
Lori L.
lleary@epix.net
Mountaintop, PA
Pawleys Island, SC
> While grad school can be a life changing experience so too can life be a
life
> changing experience. If you have the guts go out and change your life.
> Period!
> If you're expecting grad school to "change" your life AND change your work
> forget it. Save yourself the money!
> Go out and change your life in a way you never thought possible before.
> Period.
> Grad school is for chicken shits who never tried to make it on their own.
> Try to make it on your own doing what ever-the hell you wanted to do in
the
> first place. Find out how people respond. Listen to people.
> Either you want to make work that looks good on a resume or you want to
make
> work that moves people.
> I, for one, want to make work that moves people. Period. Work that gets
> people excited, period. No piece of paper s going to get me to that point.
I,
> and my experiences, WILL!
>
> The great artists of the world didn't become GREAT artists because of some
> stupid grad program. No! They became great artists because they had the
> courage to live life, follow their dreams, and deal with the consequences.
> Great art is not about being creative. Great art is about dealing with the
> consequences, dealing with your life, and dealing with the complications!
>
> People connect with great art because Iit connects with THEIR life DIG!
Make
> art that reflects your frustrations, your struggles, your victories, and
you
> will make art that people can relate to, people will understand, people
will
> cherish!
>
> It's simple really: either you think great art comes from a book ( or a
great
> grad program) or you think great art comes from life. I, for one, think
great
> art comes from life, period!
>
> Live a great life (take risks, do the unexpected, challenge yourself) and
you
> will make great art, its that simple!
>
> Here's to the one percent of the people, of the list, who didn't go to
grad
> school, who dropped out of college, and who struggle to make art a daily
> occurence!
>
> Jeff Longtin
Lori Leary on wed 28 aug 02
P.S.
My goal, by the way, is not to be the greatest artist in the world, but to
be the best artist *I* can be. There's a difference, you know.
Lori L.
lleary@epix.net
> The great artists of the world didn't become GREAT artists because of some
> stupid grad program. No! They became great artists because they had the
> courage to live life, follow their dreams, and deal with the consequences.
> Great art is not about being creative. Great art is about dealing with the
> consequences, dealing with your life, and dealing with the complications!
lpots@pclink.com.
Rick Hugel on wed 28 aug 02
Jeff,
I feel that I should say something to you concerning your "Just a thought".
But to tell you the truth, I wonder if it would be worth the effort.
Let's look at the idea of "change" in terms of changing ones life.
Couldn't the word connote a "broadening" of one's perspectives. You know,
something like climbing the hill to see what is on the other side; it gives
you a idea/feeling/vision/whatever of adding to the dimensions of your
living area. Studying texts, listening to lectures, adhering to set
parameters and attaining them is pretty much the same. A goods
teacher/lecturer is not out to create learners in his image. A professor's
sole purpose is to help his/her wards to get to the top of that hill and
after that what each candidate sees becomes each one's personal vision
miracle, more than likely totally different from the professor's. but once
the learner has figured out how to climb one hill, the next will be just
that much less arduous - hopefully - because the individual basic climbing
skills each student formed is personal and intuitive to him/her and is
continually expanded upon. So, please, don't sell a learning system short.
After all, where would we all be as business people and designers if we
hadn't learned basic math - the first hill we climbed.
> >And as I am sure you will agree, graduate school is charged with so much
>>information and idea - it is bound to be a life-changing experience for
>>anyone who makes the most of the opportunity.
>
>Just a thought:
>
>While grad school can be a life changing experience so too can life be a life
>changing experience. If you have the guts go out and change your life.
>Period!
>If you're expecting grad school to "change" your life AND change your work
>forget it. Save yourself the money!
>Go out and change your life in a way you never thought possible before.
>Period.
>Grad school is for chicken shits who never tried to make it on their own.
>Try to make it on your own doing what ever-the hell you wanted to do in the
>first place. Find out how people respond. Listen to people.
>Either you want to make work that looks good on a resume or you want to make
>work that moves people.
>I, for one, want to make work that moves people. Period. Work that gets
>people excited, period. No piece of paper s going to get me to that point. I,
>and my experiences, WILL!
>
>The great artists of the world didn't become GREAT artists because of some
>stupid grad program. No! They became great artists because they had the
>courage to live life, follow their dreams, and deal with the consequences.
>Great art is not about being creative. Great art is about dealing with the
>consequences, dealing with your life, and dealing with the complications!
>
>People connect with great art because Iit connects with THEIR life DIG! Make
>art that reflects your frustrations, your struggles, your victories, and you
>will make art that people can relate to, people will understand, people will
>cherish!
>
>It's simple really: either you think great art comes from a book ( or a great
>grad program) or you think great art comes from life. I, for one, think great
>art comes from life, period!
>
>Live a great life (take risks, do the unexpected, challenge yourself) and you
>will make great art, its that simple!
>
>Here's to the one percent of the people, of the list, who didn't go to grad
>school, who dropped out of college, and who struggle to make art a daily
>occurence!
>
>Jeff Longtin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>In a message dated 8/27/02 9:16:26 PM Central Daylight Time,
>vpitelka@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:
>
>
>> And as I am sure you will agree, graduate school is charged with so much
>> information and idea - it is bound to be a life-changing experience for
>> anyone who makes the most of the opportunity.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
vince pitelka on wed 28 aug 02
> Grad school is for chicken shits who never tried to make it on their own.
> Try to make it on your own doing what ever-the hell you wanted to do in
the
> first place. Find out how people respond. Listen to people.
> Either you want to make work that looks good on a resume or you want to
make work that moves people.
> I, for one, want to make work that moves people. Period. Work that gets
> people excited, period. No piece of paper s going to get me to that point.
I,
> and my experiences, WILL!
It is evident that you are trying to piss people off, but I am afraid that
your ranting has the opposite effect. Open mouth, insert foot all the way
up to the buttock. What a complete load of horseshit. It is apparent that
you have formulated these opinions independent of ANY graduate school
experience, and it saddens me that you feel compelled to dump on something
you know nothing about. Or if you DID go to graduate school, you obviously
made very poor use of the opportunity.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE anyone out there considering graduate school, do not
pay any attention at all to such ridiculous rantings as are contained in
Jeff's message. It has no basis whatsoever in reality. He is correct in
saying that life itself can be a life-changing experience, and that anyone
who has the guts can go out there and change their life. But it is equally
true that anyone who has the guts can go to graduate school, make the most
of the situation, drastically improve their work and change their life in a
very short period of time, and be better off for it for the rest of their
life. ANYONE who has been to grad school and has made the most of the
opportunity can verify this, while those who have not and wished they had
are full of condemnations for the whole concept of graduate school. What a
load of crap.
To approach grad school "expecting" it to change your life and your work
would be a mistake. A more appropriate concept would be to approach
graduate school with the determination to make the most of the opportunity,
in the HOPE that it will change your life and your work. Following through
on that intent, it will do so on both accounts. And it will CERTAINLY
change your life in ways you never thought possible before.
Your line "Either you want to make work that looks good on a resume or you
want to make work that moves people." displays so much paranoia and
insecurity in this situation that I don't think I even want to tackle it.
You said:
"The great artists of the world didn't become GREAT artists because of some
stupid grad program. No! They became great artists because they had the
courage to live life, follow their dreams, and deal with the consequences.
Great art is not about being creative. Great art is about dealing with the
consequences, dealing with your life, and dealing with the complications!"
Well, once again, paranoia and insecurity run rampant. I do agree with the
general concept above, but most great artists did not go to graduate school
because it didn't exist or was not an option. If it had been, they
certainly would have taken the opportunity. Almost all great artists of the
last few centuries did engage in formal study of some kind, and a large
percentage of the most successful and effective artists of our own time DID
go to graduate school.
And although it takes a great deal of courage, graduate school is an
EXCELLENT way for aspiring artists "to live life, follow their dreams, and
deal with the consequences."
You say "Great art is not about being creative." Wow. Where you been?
You say "Make art that reflects your frustrations, your struggles, your
victories, and you will make art that people can relate to, people will
understand, people will cherish!"
Well, of course! And most art faculty and most graduate programs will place
primary emphasis on helping the student to do exactly that. If you do not
agree, then you do not know much about graduate school. Period.
You say: "Here's to the one percent of the people, of the list, who didn't
go to grad school, who dropped out of college, and who struggle to make art
a daily
occurrence!"
I agree that people who have struggled to become good artists without
academic education deserve recognition, commendation, and respect for what
they have accomplished, but they don't deserve MORE recognition or respect
than any academically-trained artist. They simply chose a different path
that is no more or less valid, no easier, no more difficult.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@worldnet.att.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
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