Philip Poburka on sat 14 sep 02
Carbonate?)
Oh!
I keep forgetting...Hydrochloric Acid is also known as
'Muriatic'...
Muriatic I am familir with...
Thanks!
Phil
las vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ditmar"
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: would this work? (Are we wanting to get rid of
Calcium Carbonate?)
Always best to be safe and prudent....
It's hydroFLOURIC acid that is especially NASTY ! NASTY to
be emphasized
!!!
It CAN kill you!!
But....Hydrochloric is what is used in swimming pools, metal
/ concrete
cleaning, and it's also the one we have in our stomachs to
help digest food.
I prefer to use it over vinegar (acetic acid) since
chlorides are generally
more soluble, and wash out better.
Ditmar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Poburka"
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: would this work? (Are we wanting to get rid of
Calcium
Carbonate?)
> I have never worked with Hydrochloric Acid...but I am told
> one may wish to be especially careful...as stories I have
> heard, tell of getting it on one's hand or arm, and not
> feeling anything in particular.
>
> Later...one has an area of 'mush' as may have some
> tenderness...which shall need to be excised, leaving a
> cavity as may take prolongued convelescance to 'heal'...or
> more or less 'heal'.
>
> Where other Acids are liable to sting immediadly,
> indicateing one may do an immediate 'Baking-Soda' wash or
> what...
>
> I may have innacurate information on the Hydrochloric..but
> wanted to mention anyway.
>
> If someone familiar with it's possible liabilities should
> clearify this?
>
> I'd be grateful!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Phil
> ell vee
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ditmar"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:03 PM
> Subject: Re: would this work? (Are we wanting to get rid
of
> Calcium Carbonate?)
>
>
> I think Phil may be on the right track, except with
> hydrochloric acid....if
> it's worth your while. You could leach it with dilute HCl,
> then a wash of
> plain water.
> Of course it all depends on quantity, and how easy /
cheaply
> you can obtain
> acids.
> Instead of adjusting for the calcium...get rid of it.
> Ditmar
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Poburka"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 12:38 PM
> Subject: Re: would this work? (Are we wanting to get rid
of
> Calcium
> Carbonate?)
>
>
> > Would Vinegar not dissolve it...and...?
> >
> > Just a thought...
> >
> > Phil
> > el vee
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________
> __________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________
________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
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> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________
__________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your
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Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
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Edouard Bastarache on sat 14 sep 02
Carbonate?)
HYDROFLUORIC ACID
1-Background:
Hydrofluoric acid (HF) is one of the strongest inorganic acids. Its use i=
s
mainly industrial, including glass etching, metal cleaning and electronic=
s
manufacturing. It may be found in home rust removers. Exposure is usually
accidental, often due to inadaquate use of protective measures.
HF burns are a unique clinical entity. Dilute solutions penetrate deeply
before dissociating, causing delayed injury and symptoms. Burns to the
fingers and nail beds may leave the overlying nails intact.
Severe burns are those following exposure to concentrated HF (50% or
greater) to 1% or more =AB body surface area =BB, HF of any concentration=
to 5%
or
more =AB body surface area =BB, or inhalation of HF fumes from a 60% or s=
tronger
solution. The vast majority of cases involve only small areas of exposure=
,
usually on the digits.
2-Pathophysiology:
Tissue damage is caused by two mechanisms. A corrosive burn from the free
hydrogen ions and a chemical burn from tissue penetration of the fluoride
ions. Fluoride ions penetrate and form insoluble salts with calcium and
magnesium. Soluble salts are also formed with other cations but dissociat=
e
rapidly, releasing the fluoride ion allowing further tissue destruction.
Mortality/Morbidity:
Local effects include tissue destruction and necrosis. Burns may involve
underlying bone.
Systemic fluoride ion poisoning from severe burns is associated with
hypocalcemia, hyperkalemia, hypomagnesemia and sudden death. Deaths have
been reported from as little as 2.5% =AB body surface area =BB burn from
concentrated acid.
3-History:
The time to onset of symptoms is related to the concentration of the HF.
Solutions of 14% produce symptoms immediately. Solutions of 12% may take
up to an hour. Solutions of 7% or less may take several hours before onse=
t
of symptoms, resulting in delayed presentation, deeper penetration of the
undissociated HF and a more severe burn.
Concentrated solutions cause immediate pain and produce a surface burn
similar to other common acids with erythema, blistering and necrosis.
The pain is typically described as deep, burning, or throbbing and is oft=
en
out of proportion to apparent skin involvement.
A history of potential exposure to cleaning solutions should be obtained =
in
the last 24 hours including:
Concentration of acid
Duration of exposure
Use of protective measures
Other agents in the solution
Symptoms of hypocalcaemia such as tetany, Chvostek's sign and Trousseau's
sign (although these are often absent even with marked hypocalcemia).
Medications and intercurrent illness predisposing to hypocalcaemia or
hypomagnesaemia
4-Physical:
Weaker solutions penetrate before dissociating. Surface involvement in th=
ese
cases is minimal and may even be absent.
Three categories of appearance:
A white burn mark and/or erythema and pain
A white burn mark and/or erythema and pain, plus edema and blistering
A white burn mark and/or erythema and pain, swelling and blistering, plus
necrosis.
Ocular burns present with severe pain.
Inhalation burns may develop acute pulmonary edema.
5-Lab Studies:
Electrolytes: Severe disturbances can occur, especially hypocalcemia,
hypomagnesemia and hyperkalemia.
Imaging Studies:
Radiographs :
CXR, if pulmonary edema is suspected; to look for pulmonary edema
Digital - if burns to the fingers to evaluate bone integrity.
Other Tests:
ECG - Cardiac monitoring is necessary if the burn is significant.
Arrhythmias are a primary cause of death. Monitor for Q-T prolongation fr=
om
hypocalcemia or signs of hyperkalemia.
6-TREATMENT:
A-Prehospital Care:
Treatment for HF burns includes basic life support and appropriate
decontamination, followed by neutralization of the acid by the use of
calcium gluconate. If exposure occurs at an industrial site, obtain and
transport any treatment literature available.
Acute life threats are assessed and managed in the usual manner. EMS
personnel use gloves, masks and gowns, if necessary.
Remove soiled clothing. Initially decontaminate by irrigation with copiou=
s
amounts of water.
Ice packs on the affected area may alleviate symptoms. If calcium glucona=
te
gel is available, apply liberally to the affected area.
Inhalation injuries: oxygen, and 2.5% calcium gluconate nebulizer.
Transport the patient to the nearest appropriate medical facility.
B-Emergency Department Care:
Remove soiled clothing.
Decontaminate by irrigation with copious amounts of water.
Assess and manage life threats as with any other cause.
Commence comprehensive monitoring for significant exposures.
Intravenous 10% calcium gluconate should be administered early if there i=
s
any evidence of hypocalcemia.
Application of 2.5% calcium gluconate gel to the affected area. If the
proprietary gel is not available, constitute by dissolving 10% calcium
gluconate solution in 3 times the volume of a water soluble lubricant suc=
h
as KY gel. For burns to the fingers, retain gel in a latex glove.
If pain persists for more than 30 minutes after using calcium gluconate g=
el,
further treatment is required. Subcutaneous infiltration of calcium
gluconate (not the chloride salt as it is an irritant and may itself caus=
e
tissue damage) is recommended at a dose of 0.5 ml of a 10% solution per
square centimeter of surface burn extending 0.5 cm beyond the margin of
involved tissue.
Burns to the digits : Local infiltration of digits is not reccommended du=
e
to pain, disfugurement and potential complications.
Alternatives are:
IV regional calcium gluconate: 10-15 ml of 10% calcium gluconate plus 5,0=
00
units of heparin diluted up to 40 ml in 5% dextrose. Using a Bier's ische=
mic
arm block technique, the solution is infused intravenously and the cuff
released when the first of the following occur: pain from the digits is
resolved; the cuff is more painful than the burn, or 20 minutes of ischem=
ic
time has elapsed.
Treatment can be repeated after 4 hours if needed.
Intra-arterial calcium gluconate: An arterial catheter is placed in the
radial or brachial artery as needed to perfuse the affected digits. The
solution of 10 ml of 10% calcium gluconate in 40 ml of 5% dextrose is
infused over a 4 hour period, followed by further infusions repeated afte=
r
4-8 hours, if necessary.
Several treatments may be needed.
Continuous ECG and clinical monitoring is essential during these procedur=
es
Ocular burns :
Irrigate generously with sterile water or saline for at least 5 minutes.
Local anaesthetic may be required. If pain persists, irrigate with a 1%
solution of calcium gluconate by diluting the 10% solution in 10 times th=
e
volume of normal saline.
Undiluted 10% calcium gluconate should NOT be used.
Inhalation burns :
All exposures to the head and neck should arouse suspicion of pulmonary
involvement. If there is any doubt admission for observation is advised.
Specific treatment includes: 100% oxygen by mask, 2.5% calcium gluconate =
by
nebulizer with 100% oxygen, continuous pulse oximetry, ECG and clinical
monitoring.
Pulmonary edema is treated along conventional lines as needed.
Edouard Bastarache M.D.(Occupational & Environmental Medicine)
Author of =AB Substitutions for Raw Ceramic Materials =BB
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
----- Original Message -----
From: Catherine White
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: would this work? (Are we wanting to get rid of Calcium
Carbonate?)
> Possibly hydroflouric (sp) acid? I once worked at Nat'l SemiConductor
where
> they made the computer chips from silicon disks. If you spilled
hydroflouric
> acid on yourself, it was pretty painless but went into the body seeking
bone
> areas for the calcium as I recall. Left horrendous after-effects. And i=
t
> happened fairly often since this was the 70s on the midnight shift and
drugs
> were rampant. Ah, those memories........
> Catherine in AZ
Ditmar on sat 14 sep 02
Carbonate?)
I think Phil may be on the right track, except with hydrochloric acid....if
it's worth your while. You could leach it with dilute HCl, then a wash of
plain water.
Of course it all depends on quantity, and how easy / cheaply you can obtain
acids.
Instead of adjusting for the calcium...get rid of it.
Ditmar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Poburka"
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: would this work? (Are we wanting to get rid of Calcium
Carbonate?)
> Would Vinegar not dissolve it...and...?
>
> Just a thought...
>
> Phil
> el vee
>
Philip Poburka on sat 14 sep 02
Carbonate?)
I have never worked with Hydrochloric Acid...but I am told
one may wish to be especially careful...as stories I have
heard, tell of getting it on one's hand or arm, and not
feeling anything in particular.
Later...one has an area of 'mush' as may have some
tenderness...which shall need to be excised, leaving a
cavity as may take prolongued convelescance to 'heal'...or
more or less 'heal'.
Where other Acids are liable to sting immediadly,
indicateing one may do an immediate 'Baking-Soda' wash or
what...
I may have innacurate information on the Hydrochloric..but
wanted to mention anyway.
If someone familiar with it's possible liabilities should
clearify this?
I'd be grateful!
Thanks,
Phil
ell vee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ditmar"
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: would this work? (Are we wanting to get rid of
Calcium Carbonate?)
I think Phil may be on the right track, except with
hydrochloric acid....if
it's worth your while. You could leach it with dilute HCl,
then a wash of
plain water.
Of course it all depends on quantity, and how easy / cheaply
you can obtain
acids.
Instead of adjusting for the calcium...get rid of it.
Ditmar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Poburka"
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: would this work? (Are we wanting to get rid of
Calcium
Carbonate?)
> Would Vinegar not dissolve it...and...?
>
> Just a thought...
>
> Phil
> el vee
>
____________________________________________________________
__________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Catherine White on sat 14 sep 02
Carbonate?)
Possibly hydroflouric (sp) acid? I once worked at Nat'l SemiConductor where
they made the computer chips from silicon disks. If you spilled hydroflouric
acid on yourself, it was pretty painless but went into the body seeking bone
areas for the calcium as I recall. Left horrendous after-effects. And it
happened fairly often since this was the 70s on the midnight shift and drugs
were rampant. Ah, those memories........
Catherine in AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Poburka"
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: would this work? (Are we wanting to get rid of Calcium
Carbonate?)
> I have never worked with Hydrochloric Acid...but I am told
> one may wish to be especially careful...as stories I have
> heard, tell of getting it on one's hand or arm, and not
> feeling anything in particular.
>
> Later...one has an area of 'mush' as may have some
> tenderness...which shall need to be excised, leaving a
> cavity as may take prolongued convelescance to 'heal'...or
> more or less 'heal'.
>
> Where other Acids are liable to sting immediadly,
> indicateing one may do an immediate 'Baking-Soda' wash or
> what...
>
> I may have innacurate information on the Hydrochloric..but
> wanted to mention anyway.
>
> If someone familiar with it's possible liabilities should
> clearify this?
>
> I'd be grateful!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Phil
> ell vee
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ditmar"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:03 PM
> Subject: Re: would this work? (Are we wanting to get rid of
> Calcium Carbonate?)
>
>
> I think Phil may be on the right track, except with
> hydrochloric acid....if
> it's worth your while. You could leach it with dilute HCl,
> then a wash of
> plain water.
> Of course it all depends on quantity, and how easy / cheaply
> you can obtain
> acids.
> Instead of adjusting for the calcium...get rid of it.
> Ditmar
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Poburka"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 12:38 PM
> Subject: Re: would this work? (Are we wanting to get rid of
> Calcium
> Carbonate?)
>
>
> > Would Vinegar not dissolve it...and...?
> >
> > Just a thought...
> >
> > Phil
> > el vee
> >
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> __________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Ditmar on sat 14 sep 02
Carbonate?)
Always best to be safe and prudent....
It's hydroFLOURIC acid that is especially NASTY ! NASTY to be emphasized
!!!
It CAN kill you!!
But....Hydrochloric is what is used in swimming pools, metal / concrete
cleaning, and it's also the one we have in our stomachs to help digest food.
I prefer to use it over vinegar (acetic acid) since chlorides are generally
more soluble, and wash out better.
Ditmar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Poburka"
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: would this work? (Are we wanting to get rid of Calcium
Carbonate?)
> I have never worked with Hydrochloric Acid...but I am told
> one may wish to be especially careful...as stories I have
> heard, tell of getting it on one's hand or arm, and not
> feeling anything in particular.
>
> Later...one has an area of 'mush' as may have some
> tenderness...which shall need to be excised, leaving a
> cavity as may take prolongued convelescance to 'heal'...or
> more or less 'heal'.
>
> Where other Acids are liable to sting immediadly,
> indicateing one may do an immediate 'Baking-Soda' wash or
> what...
>
> I may have innacurate information on the Hydrochloric..but
> wanted to mention anyway.
>
> If someone familiar with it's possible liabilities should
> clearify this?
>
> I'd be grateful!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Phil
> ell vee
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ditmar"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:03 PM
> Subject: Re: would this work? (Are we wanting to get rid of
> Calcium Carbonate?)
>
>
> I think Phil may be on the right track, except with
> hydrochloric acid....if
> it's worth your while. You could leach it with dilute HCl,
> then a wash of
> plain water.
> Of course it all depends on quantity, and how easy / cheaply
> you can obtain
> acids.
> Instead of adjusting for the calcium...get rid of it.
> Ditmar
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Poburka"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 12:38 PM
> Subject: Re: would this work? (Are we wanting to get rid of
> Calcium
> Carbonate?)
>
>
> > Would Vinegar not dissolve it...and...?
> >
> > Just a thought...
> >
> > Phil
> > el vee
> >
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> __________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
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