mel jacobson on sat 21 sep 02
i feel from seeing the image, that it was in bad taste.
it was not censorship to take it down.
if one of my friends had jumped from that tower i would
not want to see that sculpture every day on my way to work.
think of how many people had that very experience.
i am glad it was taken down.
sometimes, folks have to step up...and say....`hey, this is
in bad taste...it hurts others`. it is in a public place...you
have to look at it. it was not in a museum or gallery you
could choose to go into.
every time a piece of art is rejected, it does not mean
censorship...some times things are plain bad. good judgement
does not always produce censorship. when art is out there, you
take your chances...it is to be judged.
so many want to throw stones at those that take a stand.
`he was a rotten republican, can't trust him`.
that too is censorship.
what about the crap that is on tv. who takes a stand?
can't censor hollywood. so there it is, night after night.
mel
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
Catherine White on sat 21 sep 02
What was the sculpture in question? Surely not a splatted body? Or one in
the process of falling.
Catherine AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "mel jacobson"
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 2:48 PM
Subject: n.y. sculpture.
> i feel from seeing the image, that it was in bad taste.
> it was not censorship to take it down.
>
> if one of my friends had jumped from that tower i would
> not want to see that sculpture every day on my way to work.
Lois Ruben Aronow on sat 21 sep 02
On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 15:08:54 -0700, you wrote:
>What was the sculpture in question? Surely not a splatted body? Or one=
in
>the process of falling.
Indeed, it was one in the process of falling. Very poor taste.
--------------------------------------------
Lois Ruben Aronow
gilois@bellatlantic.net
=46ine Craft Porcelain
http://www.loisaronow.com=20
Bonnie/Jeremy Hellman on sat 21 sep 02
I saw the sculpture in question on the Today show Friday morning. It is a
large female (if I remember correctly) bronze sculpture in an upside down
position (not a diving position), folded over, in the same position of at
least one of the people who jumped off the World Trade Towers on September
11, 2001. Eric Fischl has a web site http://www.ericfischl.com but does not
have this latest sculpture on the site.
For people who saw others jumping off the buildings, and who have spent a
lot of time and effort trying to NOT think about this, to remove the
nightmare from their consciousness, this was just too graphic.
As a figurative sculpture I thought it was good. But as a symbol it was just
too close to home.
The NY Times on September 19, 2002 reported:
After Complaints, Rockefeller Center Drapes Sept. 11 Statue
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
bronze statue in Rockefeller Center, meant to commemorate those who jumped
or fell to their deaths from the World Trade Center, was abruptly draped in
cloth and surrounded by a curtain wall yesterday.
The statue, Eric Fischl's "Tumbling Woman," depicts a naked woman with her
arms and legs flailing above her head, as if in a backward somersault. It
had drawn some complaints since it went on view in the complex's lower
concourse about a week ago.
The work was initially to remain on display through Monday. Instead, a
decision was made to remove it.
"We apologize if anyone was upset or offended by the display of this
sculpture," said Suzanne Halpin, a spokeswoman for Rockefeller Center. "The
piece will be removed this evening."
It was not immediately clear where the sculpture would be taken.
A column about the sculpture was published yesterday in The New York Post.
Numerous news photos captured images of desperate people leaping to their
deaths as the 110-story towers of the trade center burned. Some passers-by
in Rockefeller Center, however, complained that the artist's rendition was
too graphic.
"I don't think it dignifies their deaths," said Paul Labb, who was strolling
through the concourse. "It is very disrupting when you see it."
Mr. Fischl, the sculptor, said in a statement, "The sculpture was not meant
to hurt anybody."
"It was a sincere expression of deepest sympathy for the vulnerability of
the human condition," Mr. Fischl added.
The artist, who was in Croatia, could not be reached for further comment.
His agent did not return a call.
Christine Defonces said there was a need for art that captured the horror of
Sept. 11. "I don't think that it's done in bad taste," she said before the
statue was covered. "It's an artist's reaction to what happened."
A poem by Mr. Fischl, which appeared on a plaque near the sculpture, read:
We watched,
disbelieving and helpless,
on that savage day.
People we love
began falling,
helpless and in disbelief.
"Tumbling Woman" is not the first work by Mr. Fischl to attract controversy.
Two years ago, he made a 14-foot nude statue honoring Arthur Ashe, facing
the stadium that bears Ashe's name at the National Tennis Center in New
York.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Catherine White"
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: n.y. sculpture.
> What was the sculpture in question? Surely not a splatted body? Or one
in
> the process of falling.
> Catherine AZ
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mel jacobson"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 2:48 PM
> Subject: n.y. sculpture.
>
>
> > i feel from seeing the image, that it was in bad taste.
> > it was not censorship to take it down.
> >
> > if one of my friends had jumped from that tower i would
> > not want to see that sculpture every day on my way to work.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
Lois Ruben Aronow on sun 22 sep 02
I am a family member of a victim who died in the WTC. I am also a New
Yorker who saw the whole thing happen. Not on TV, but saw it happen
in person. The jumpers, as they are called, are an extremely
sensitive and painful part of this terrible tragedy to millions of New
Yorkers. (and no, my family member was not a jumper; we know this for
a fact).=20
No matter how skillful the sculpture, it was still done in extremely
poor taste, in my opinion. These are people who were so desperate
that the better choice was to jump out a 110 story building.
Portraying a person at the point of impact - at the moment of death -
is not "paying tribute", in my humble opinion. It is almost like
celebrating their death. Certainly not illustrating or paying homage
to their bravery or desperation. =20
Someone wrote to me and told me that it was "ok" (my word" because it
was "skillfully crafted". I don't care if it was made by
Michelangelo, or displayed in the Sisteen chapel. Some images, to
me, are sacred, and this is one of them.
Just my opinion.
>I saw the sculpture in question on the Today show Friday morning. It is =
a
>large female (if I remember correctly) bronze sculpture in an upside =
down
>position (not a diving position), folded over, in the same position of =
at
>least one of the people who jumped off the World Trade Towers on =
September
>11, 2001. Eric Fischl has a web site http://www.ericfischl.com but does =
not
>have this latest sculpture on the site.
>
>For people who saw others jumping off the buildings, and who have spent =
a
>lot of time and effort trying to NOT think about this, to remove the
>nightmare from their consciousness, this was just too graphic.
>
>As a figurative sculpture I thought it was good. But as a symbol it was =
just
>too close to home.
>
>
>
>The NY Times on September 19, 2002 reported:
>
>After Complaints, Rockefeller Center Drapes Sept. 11 Statue
>By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
>
>
> bronze statue in Rockefeller Center, meant to commemorate those who =
jumped
>or fell to their deaths from the World Trade Center, was abruptly draped=
in
>cloth and surrounded by a curtain wall yesterday.
>
>The statue, Eric Fischl's "Tumbling Woman," depicts a naked woman with =
her
>arms and legs flailing above her head, as if in a backward somersault. =
It
>had drawn some complaints since it went on view in the complex's lower
>concourse about a week ago.
>
>The work was initially to remain on display through Monday. Instead, a
>decision was made to remove it.
>
>"We apologize if anyone was upset or offended by the display of this
>sculpture," said Suzanne Halpin, a spokeswoman for Rockefeller Center. =
"The
>piece will be removed this evening."
>
>It was not immediately clear where the sculpture would be taken.
>
>A column about the sculpture was published yesterday in The New York =
Post.
>
>Numerous news photos captured images of desperate people leaping to =
their
>deaths as the 110-story towers of the trade center burned. Some =
passers-by
>in Rockefeller Center, however, complained that the artist's rendition =
was
>too graphic.
>
>"I don't think it dignifies their deaths," said Paul Labb, who was =
strolling
>through the concourse. "It is very disrupting when you see it."
>
>Mr. Fischl, the sculptor, said in a statement, "The sculpture was not =
meant
>to hurt anybody."
>
>"It was a sincere expression of deepest sympathy for the vulnerability =
of
>the human condition," Mr. Fischl added.
>
>The artist, who was in Croatia, could not be reached for further =
comment.
>His agent did not return a call.
>
>Christine Defonces said there was a need for art that captured the =
horror of
>Sept. 11. "I don't think that it's done in bad taste," she said before =
the
>statue was covered. "It's an artist's reaction to what happened."
>
>A poem by Mr. Fischl, which appeared on a plaque near the sculpture, =
read:
>
>
>We watched,
>
>disbelieving and helpless,
>
>on that savage day.
>
>People we love
>
>began falling,
>
>helpless and in disbelief.
>
>
>"Tumbling Woman" is not the first work by Mr. Fischl to attract =
controversy.
>Two years ago, he made a 14-foot nude statue honoring Arthur Ashe, =
facing
>the stadium that bears Ashe's name at the National Tennis Center in New
>York.
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Catherine White"
>To:
>Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 6:08 PM
>Subject: Re: n.y. sculpture.
>
>
>> What was the sculpture in question? Surely not a splatted body? Or =
one
>in
>> the process of falling.
>> Catherine AZ
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "mel jacobson"
>> To:
>> Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 2:48 PM
>> Subject: n.y. sculpture.
>>
>>
>> > i feel from seeing the image, that it was in bad taste.
>> > it was not censorship to take it down.
>> >
>> > if one of my friends had jumped from that tower i would
>> > not want to see that sculpture every day on my way to work.
>>
>>
>________________________________________________________________________=
____
>__
>> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
>>
>>
>
>________________________________________________________________________=
______
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at =
melpots@pclink.com.
--------------------------------------------
Lois Ruben Aronow
gilois@bellatlantic.net
=46ine Craft Porcelain
http://www.loisaronow.com=20
claybair on sun 22 sep 02
Interesting... Now if the sculptor had changed the attire and placed wings
on the figure would it have been offensive?
I didn't see a brief clip of several people who had jumped until this past
9/11. Once past the initial horror, shock & grief it has stayed with me and
continues to inspire a great deal of thought and introspection.
At a local 9/11 tribute someone had 2 paintings that depicted falling
bodies.. I was not offended....... didn't like them because they were poorly
executed but didn't feel they should have been censored. It was what had
impacted the artist most and that is how he/she chose to express the event.
Being of Jewish ancestry I am glad to know that the concentration camps
remain in place as museums........I hate to think what would happen if they
were not there are constant reminders.
Censorship is censorship once you start you never know who/what will be
next!
I like have individual control over it... I do not watch sit-coms, game
shows, reality TV, porn etc...etc. and would be very unhappy if someone
decided the Discovery channels were offensive decided to censor them.
We all have our individual censor devices be they remote controls, delete
buttons or our feet to walk another way to avoid an offensive piece of art
work.
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
claybair on sun 22 sep 02
Decide for yourself........
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,63514,00.html
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
Elca Branman on sun 22 sep 02
I have been thinking hard about mel's and others comments.. and of course
it comes down to not wanting to hurt people, on one hand, and on the
other hand,saying that here is the painful truth of an event.
I don't quite know what to say..
When I visited a Concentration camp site, I was deeply offended by the
ivy and garden plantings around the dormitories.;it seemed to me a
disrespectful prettification.. Clearly , to others, leaving the bare
naked earth might feel disrespectful.
.I remember seeing somewhere, a monument to the Unknown Political
Prisoner, a figure dressed in striped camp garb with hollow eyes and
desiccated body..not pretty at all, and maybe to someone who had been
there, offensive. To me , it was a direct cry from the heart about man's
inhumanity..(I tried to locate the statue on Google..no luck) Magdalena
Abacanowitz(sp) has some painful statues of war and horror, but they are
wonderful calls against brutality. There are crucifications figures that
I find painful to look at.
Anyhow, coming upon such a falling Woman statement unexpectedly could
indeed be painful for a friend or relative.
I'm not sure but that it would also be painful for them in a museum.
So , how do we resolve or deal with our different opinions?
Porno or warm human embrace?
Compassionate statement of horror or brutal reminder ?
The only thing I am quite sure about is that censorship is dangerous but
compassion is not.
Still thinking,
Elca Branman,in Sarasota Florida
elcab1@juno.com
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
Marie Gibbons on sun 22 sep 02
I risk to combine threads here... and can't help but wonder, is this maybe
the crux of the difference between Art and Craft? Art, be it good, bad,
ugly, provokes...
marie gibbons
www.oooladies.com
Catherine White on sun 22 sep 02
Google led me to the site:
http://www.abakanowicz.art.pl/index.html
Thank you. The faceless figures say it all.
Catherine from AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elca Branman"
To:
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: n.y. sculpture.
> I have been thinking hard about mel's and others comments.. and of course
> it comes down to not wanting to hurt people, on one hand, and on the
> other hand,saying that here is the painful truth of an event.
>
> I don't quite know what to say..
>
> When I visited a Concentration camp site, I was deeply offended by the
> ivy and garden plantings around the dormitories.;it seemed to me a
> disrespectful prettification.. Clearly , to others, leaving the bare
> naked earth might feel disrespectful.
>
> .I remember seeing somewhere, a monument to the Unknown Political
> Prisoner, a figure dressed in striped camp garb with hollow eyes and
> desiccated body..not pretty at all, and maybe to someone who had been
> there, offensive. To me , it was a direct cry from the heart about man's
> inhumanity..(I tried to locate the statue on Google..no luck) Magdalena
> Abacanowitz(sp) has some painful statues of war and horror, but they are
> wonderful calls against brutality. There are crucifications figures that
> I find painful to look at.
>
> Anyhow, coming upon such a falling Woman statement unexpectedly could
> indeed be painful for a friend or relative.
>
> I'm not sure but that it would also be painful for them in a museum.
>
> So , how do we resolve or deal with our different opinions?
>
> Porno or warm human embrace?
> Compassionate statement of horror or brutal reminder ?
>
> The only thing I am quite sure about is that censorship is dangerous but
> compassion is not.
>
> Still thinking,
> Elca Branman,in Sarasota Florida
> elcab1@juno.com
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Earl Brunner on sun 22 sep 02
Well said, Elca. I always value your insight.
Earl Brunner
mailto:bruec@anv.net
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elca Branman"
To:
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: n.y. sculpture.
> I have been thinking hard about mel's and others comments.. and of
course
> it comes down to not wanting to hurt people, on one hand, and on the
> other hand,saying that here is the painful truth of an event.
>
> I don't quite know what to say..
>
> When I visited a Concentration camp site, I was deeply offended by the
> ivy and garden plantings around the dormitories.;it seemed to me a
> disrespectful prettification.. Clearly , to others, leaving the bare
> naked earth might feel disrespectful.
>
> .I remember seeing somewhere, a monument to the Unknown Political
> Prisoner, a figure dressed in striped camp garb with hollow eyes and
> desiccated body..not pretty at all, and maybe to someone who had been
> there, offensive. To me , it was a direct cry from the heart about
man's
> inhumanity..(I tried to locate the statue on Google..no luck)
Magdalena
> Abacanowitz(sp) has some painful statues of war and horror, but they
are
> wonderful calls against brutality. There are crucifications figures
that
> I find painful to look at.
>
> Anyhow, coming upon such a falling Woman statement unexpectedly
could
> indeed be painful for a friend or relative.
>
> I'm not sure but that it would also be painful for them in a museum.
>
> So , how do we resolve or deal with our different opinions?
>
> Porno or warm human embrace?
> Compassionate statement of horror or brutal reminder ?
>
> The only thing I am quite sure about is that censorship is dangerous
but
> compassion is not.
>
> Still thinking,
> Elca Branman,in Sarasota Florida
> elcab1@juno.com
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