L. P. Skeen on tue 8 oct 02
I have a student who is fairly advanced (has been throwing off & on =
since high school, very dedicated.) Problem is, his design sense is =
just really bad, and he seems to have NO sense of proportion. =
Invariably, he will have a nice body for the teapot or pitcher and stick =
some short squatty spout or lip on it. =20
I try to tell him; hey, that spout is too short for the fatness of this =
teapot body, or, those lugs are too skinny for the fatness of that =
teapot body, or, that handle is too skinny for the pitcher you're =
putting it on. Once or twice, he has changed the offending appendage =
according to my direction, but mostly he just leaves 'em. =20
He studies the work in the gallery, don't know if he's doing any reading =
at all (he's a PhD, teaches at a U here so he may not have time.) How =
can I get the point across? Is it POSSIBLE for me to help him have =
better design sense? I have tried to explain the functions of spouts =
and handles, why these things need to be such and such a size, but no =
joy.
Any ideas out there?
L
L. P. Skeen www.living-tree.net
the Viscountess Standing Turtle
Living Tree Studios, Summerfield, NC
"Who was the first person to see a cow=20
and say, "Hmmm...I think I"ll squeeze
these dangly things here and drink=20
whatever comes out." ?"
Chris Stanley on wed 9 oct 02
Tell him to take a drawing class!
Either that or a Sculpture and the Human Form Class!
Alistair Gillies on wed 9 oct 02
Hi,
I would try having him draw profiles of pot shapes, no perspective or 3d
and initially concentrating upon shape without handle or spout
additions. And to do lots of them, otherwise they may be few and
precious.
Then see if he can add handles, spouts, lids that fit the form.
Alistair Gillies
Shropshire, England.
Making press molds today.
>I have a student who is fairly advanced (has been throwing off & on since high
>school, very dedicated.) Problem is, his design sense is just really bad, and
>he seems to have NO sense of proportion. Invariably, he will have a nice body
>for the teapot or pitcher and stick some short squatty spout or lip on it.
>
>L
Diane Lamb-Wanucha on wed 9 oct 02
Have your student find objects in nature that have appendages on them like
trees with branches. Have him compare the relative proportion of the branch
to the trunk. Have really look at the human body and ask him to consider
the relative proportion of the arm to the trunk of the body. Point out how
organic appendages are thicker at the point where they grow out of the form
and then taper.
Working in the style of an artist that uses good design is also a good
lesson to understand proportion.
It sounds like your student needs to do observational drawing and focused
activities that really get him involved in finding and seeing the value of
the elements and principles of design in nature and good art.
>From: "L. P. Skeen"
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: teaching proportion & design
>Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:14:05 -0400
>
>I have a student who is fairly advanced (has been throwing off & on since
>high school, very dedicated.) Problem is, his design sense is just really
>bad, and he seems to have NO sense of proportion. Invariably, he will have
>a nice body for the teapot or pitcher and stick some short squatty spout or
>lip on it.
>
>I try to tell him; hey, that spout is too short for the fatness of this
>teapot body, or, those lugs are too skinny for the fatness of that teapot
>body, or, that handle is too skinny for the pitcher you're putting it on.
>Once or twice, he has changed the offending appendage according to my
>direction, but mostly he just leaves 'em.
>
>He studies the work in the gallery, don't know if he's doing any reading at
>all (he's a PhD, teaches at a U here so he may not have time.) How can I
>get the point across? Is it POSSIBLE for me to help him have better design
>sense? I have tried to explain the functions of spouts and handles, why
>these things need to be such and such a size, but no joy.
>Any ideas out there?
>
>L
>
>
>
>L. P. Skeen www.living-tree.net
>the Viscountess Standing Turtle
>Living Tree Studios, Summerfield, NC
>"Who was the first person to see a cow
>and say, "Hmmm...I think I"ll squeeze
>these dangly things here and drink
>whatever comes out." ?"
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________
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claybair on thu 10 oct 02
Veerry interesting... so that's why I did some major redesigning of
the house we built 2 years ago! It wasn't a $1,000,000
mini-mansion though.
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Dave Gayman
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:03 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: teaching proportion & design
I've noticed the same phenomenon in the new custom-built $1,000,000
mini-mansions in this area in the US -- many ersatz Victorian styles, but
without any sense of balance between elements. This includes front
elevations out of whack, windows too large or too small, wings and dormers
too small (or too many), applied decoration blindly thrown on...
In another sphere entirely, for many years, fashion models male and female
have been mighty disproportionate. Maybe we're moving into the Age of
Misproportion...
At 09:33 PM 10/10/2002 +0100, L.P. Skeen wrote:
> > I have a student who is fairly advanced (has been throwing off & on
> since high
> > school, very dedicated.) Problem is, his design sense is just really
> bad, and
> > he seems to have NO sense of proportion. Invariably, he will have a
> nice body
> > for the teapot or pitcher and stick some short squatty spout or lip on
it.
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
wrives@MINDSPRING.COM on thu 10 oct 02
Why not pick one feature, i.e., a spout, for one form, like a teapot or
pitcher, and have the student make an entire range, from smallest to largest,
that he/she can make. Other variations, widest to narrowest, could also be
attempted. Then ask the student to evaluate the results with you. Spouts are
a good measure, because when they don't work well, the evidence is right in
front of you, usually all over the table!
Wayne Rives
Peachtree City, GA
DeBorah Goletz on thu 10 oct 02
L,
You might have your student read chapter 6 from Functional Pottery by Robin
Hopper. It is entitled Proportion and Ratio and is so beautifully written
that I find myself re-reading it often. When my students and I look at
pottery together, I usually point out proportional relationships between
rims, shoulders, feet, spouts etc.
Best,
DeBorah Goletz
----------
>From: Automatic digest processor
>To: Recipients of CLAYART digests
>Subject: CLAYART Digest - 8 Oct 2002 to 9 Oct 2002 (#2002-279)
>Date: Thu, Oct 10, 2002, 12:00 AM
>
> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:14:05 -0400
> From: "L. P. Skeen"
> Subject: teaching proportion & design
>
> I have a student who is fairly advanced (has been throwing off & on =
> since high school, very dedicated.) Problem is, his design sense is =
> just really bad, and he seems to have NO sense of proportion. =
Paul Taylor on thu 10 oct 02
Dear L
This is a new century in the age of the supermachine. Yours and my sense
of proportion are based on nature defined in art criticism by the principles
of the golden section.
Your student is the person of the future . The modern theories of
conceptulism say that other esthetic standards can be used. I think that's a
load of **** but I am old fashioned.
So leave the poor student alone it's his future not ours. Explain the
basic rules of proportion as used since cave painting and let him chose. I
expect he is working with the idea of what he is doing is "original". It has
not occurred to him that potters made their shapes to these rules not
because we couldn't think of any thing different but because for centuries
we have know perfection.
And let him alone, because it's too late to be turning back the tide
now. There are plenty of potters making awful shapes. they are making a good
livings because
many of the genral public see your students way - so why should he be
singled out.
--
Regards from Paul Taylor
'Craftsmanship is art'
http://www.anu.ie/westportpottery
phone 098 21239
Paul Taylor
Westport pottery
Liscarney
Westport
County Mayo
Ireland
> From: "L. P. Skeen"
> Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:14:05 -0400
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: teaching proportion & design
>
> I have a student who is fairly advanced (has been throwing off & on since high
> school, very dedicated.) Problem is, his design sense is just really bad, and
> he seems to have NO sense of proportion. Invariably, he will have a nice body
> for the teapot or pitcher and stick some short squatty spout or lip on it.
>
> I try to tell him; hey, that spout is too short for the fatness of this teapot
> body, or, those lugs are too skinny for the fatness of that teapot body, or,
> that handle is too skinny for the pitcher you're putting it on. Once or
> twice, he has changed the offending appendage according to my direction, but
> mostly he just leaves 'em.
>
> He studies the work in the gallery, don't know if he's doing any reading at
> all (he's a PhD, teaches at a U here so he may not have time.) How can I get
> the point across? Is it POSSIBLE for me to help him have better design sense?
> I have tried to explain the functions of spouts and handles, why these things
> need to be such and such a size, but no joy.
> Any ideas out there?
>
> L
>
>
>
> L. P. Skeen www.living-tree.net
> the Viscountess Standing Turtle
> Living Tree Studios, Summerfield, NC
> "Who was the first person to see a cow
> and say, "Hmmm...I think I"ll squeeze
> these dangly things here and drink
> whatever comes out." ?"
>
Dave Gayman on thu 10 oct 02
I've noticed the same phenomenon in the new custom-built $1,000,000
mini-mansions in this area in the US -- many ersatz Victorian styles, but
without any sense of balance between elements. This includes front
elevations out of whack, windows too large or too small, wings and dormers
too small (or too many), applied decoration blindly thrown on...
In another sphere entirely, for many years, fashion models male and female
have been mighty disproportionate. Maybe we're moving into the Age of
Misproportion...
At 09:33 PM 10/10/2002 +0100, L.P. Skeen wrote:
> > I have a student who is fairly advanced (has been throwing off & on
> since high
> > school, very dedicated.) Problem is, his design sense is just really
> bad, and
> > he seems to have NO sense of proportion. Invariably, he will have a
> nice body
> > for the teapot or pitcher and stick some short squatty spout or lip on it.
Culling on thu 10 oct 02
We were told -"small lips. spouts, narrow rims, meazly foot rings.... look
like you're to stingy to use enough clay or you don't know how much too use
and just ran out! Maybe your student isn't seeing it in the terms of too
tight to do it right?! Worth a try!
Steph
Very warm and dry NW Western Oz
----- Original Message -----
From: L. P. Skeen
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 10:14 AM
Subject: teaching proportion & design
Pat Southwood on thu 10 oct 02
L.P.skeen wrote about design,
Make him draw and go to see good stuff, or look it up,
books/internet/magazines and draw, and draw.
and then draw.
Then let him do it in clay. Insist on 10 variations on each specific
design, before he gets to make it, it needs justifying. Yes, it is
diagnostic, but it makes the brain work, and it can work quicker (mostly)
than the hands, emphasise the economy of time and the benefits of coming to
class with a specific design already thought through......
The very best of good luck.
Pat .
Pat.
----- Original Message -----
From: "L. P. Skeen"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 3:14 AM
Subject: teaching proportion & design
I have a student who is fairly advanced (has been throwing off & on since
high school, very dedicated.) Problem is, his design sense is just really
bad, and he seems to have NO sense of proportion. Invariably, he will have
a nice body for the teapot or pitcher and stick some short squatty spout or
lip on it.
I try to tell him; hey, that spout is too short for the fatness of this
teapot body, or, those lugs are too skinny for the fatness of that teapot
body, or, that handle is too skinny for the pitcher you're putting it on.
Once or twice, he has changed the offending appendage according to my
direction, but mostly he just leaves 'em.
He studies the work in the gallery, don't know if he's doing any reading at
all (he's a PhD, teaches at a U here so he may not have time.) How can I
get the point across? Is it POSSIBLE for me to help him have better design
sense? I have tried to explain the functions of spouts and handles, why
these things need to be such and such a size, but no joy.
Any ideas out there?
L
L. P. Skeen www.living-tree.net
the Viscountess Standing Turtle
Living Tree Studios, Summerfield, NC
"Who was the first person to see a cow
and say, "Hmmm...I think I"ll squeeze
these dangly things here and drink
whatever comes out." ?"
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Susan Giddings on fri 11 oct 02
This may seem to you to be a bit "out there" but it's a strategy that may
work.
I have always been intrigued by the fact that what looks "good" seems to be
the same universally, regardless of cultural upbringing, education, or even
exposure to the arts of a specific world area. Being the kind of person who
never stops asking why? here's what I think is going on.
Nature is 100% always there, always very visible and evident and has only
one set of "rules" that exist no matter what part of the world you are in.
The aspects of proportion and balance are all very evident in nature - and
that's a mathmatecal basis to it. This is called Phi, (or Tau) and shows up
in the Fibonacci sequence of numbers: 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,54.... The
sequence starts at 0 and 1 adds these two numbers together to get the third
number in the sequence and so on: 0+1 = 1; 1+1=2; 2+1=3; 3+2=5. When
plotted, these numbers resemble a very "right looking" curvature. This is
the way, in nature, that flowers of the composite family emerge, snail
shells also, plants branch, etc. The formula to determine phi ratio yeilds
a basis of about 1.6. This is the ration of the Parthenon, the Chritian
cross, just about all Frank Lloyd Wright architecture and literally just
about everything we see - either manmade or raw natural form. It
looks "GOOD". It looks "RIGHT" - ALL THE TIME!!!! There are a lot of web
locations that can give you far more details about this - do a search for
the golden rectangle or Fibonacci and you'll get there.
I'm not trying to make a mathmetician out of you - I'm just offering
perhaps a way for you to show this student what MAKES good proportion
happen and if so inclined, how you can carry that balance out to the work.
How to know how big a spout should be and where it should be located for it
to look "right".
Hope this helps.
Susan
Expressions Pottery Workshop
East Granby, CT
Edouard Bastarache on fri 11 oct 02
Hello Susan,
my collegues and I found the Fibonaci series to be useful in experiments we
conducted in neuro-endocrine physiology in the process called "active
avoidance
learning" in which learning was measured by endocrine parameters.
Naturally, these results are probably obsolete, the experiments having been
conducted in 1970-1972.
Very interesting observation indeed.
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan Giddings
To:
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: teaching proportion & design
> This may seem to you to be a bit "out there" but it's a strategy that may
> work.
>
> I have always been intrigued by the fact that what looks "good" seems to
be
> the same universally, regardless of cultural upbringing, education, or
even
> exposure to the arts of a specific world area. Being the kind of person
who
> never stops asking why? here's what I think is going on.
>
> Nature is 100% always there, always very visible and evident and has only
> one set of "rules" that exist no matter what part of the world you are in.
> The aspects of proportion and balance are all very evident in nature - and
> that's a mathmatecal basis to it. This is called Phi, (or Tau) and shows
up
> in the Fibonacci sequence of numbers: 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,54.... The
> sequence starts at 0 and 1 adds these two numbers together to get the
third
> number in the sequence and so on: 0+1 = 1; 1+1=2; 2+1=3; 3+2=5. When
> plotted, these numbers resemble a very "right looking" curvature. This is
> the way, in nature, that flowers of the composite family emerge, snail
> shells also, plants branch, etc. The formula to determine phi ratio yeilds
> a basis of about 1.6. This is the ration of the Parthenon, the Chritian
> cross, just about all Frank Lloyd Wright architecture and literally just
> about everything we see - either manmade or raw natural form. It
> looks "GOOD". It looks "RIGHT" - ALL THE TIME!!!! There are a lot of web
> locations that can give you far more details about this - do a search for
> the golden rectangle or Fibonacci and you'll get there.
>
> I'm not trying to make a mathmetician out of you - I'm just offering
> perhaps a way for you to show this student what MAKES good proportion
> happen and if so inclined, how you can carry that balance out to the work.
> How to know how big a spout should be and where it should be located for
it
> to look "right".
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Susan
> Expressions Pottery Workshop
> East Granby, CT
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
DeBorah Goletz on fri 11 oct 02
Hey Paul, you've got a pretty pessimistic view of the teaching process,
don't you? Call me naive, but I believe everyone can learn - some of us
just need to hear things over and over before it sinks in ... but to just
give up? Naw - I love a challenge too much.
Paul Taylor wrote:
> And let him alone, because it's too late to be turning back the tide
> now. There are plenty of potters making awful shapes. they are making a good
> livings because
> many of the genral public see your students way - so why should he be
> singled out.
>
Susan Giddings on sat 12 oct 02
I'm glad that a few of you have been insipred from the message I posted
earlier on this topic. Phi is a VERY INTERESTING value. It's one of those
rudimentary "things" that most of us never really see (or hear - because it
is also in harmonic theory) but it's always there. Once you know what to
look for, it's unmistakable.
For me, this topic is one I find intriguing. I don't usually think of
myself as an artist and it's been hard for me to "force" myself to see with
an artist's eye. So a few years back, I was talking to a good friend who
reintroduced the concept to me and it's like I just came home. Once I
started designing work that adhered strictly to the phi ratio - everything
started clicking and it all looked "right". Most importantly, it felt
right. Now it's just second nature and it's not the struggle that it used
to be. Some of us are gifted and the look of the work we create flows
naturally and effortlessly. Some of us need to struggle a bit to get that
look. This concept helped me. So I thought I would pass it on to someone
who is obviously also in the midst of that same struggle - even if they
don't realize it.
I'm glad you find this intriguing, too. And hopefully inspiring. It is a
lot of fun. Using a compass is not hard - it's far more difficult to learn
to center clay and I'm sure you manage to do that just fine!
Have fun with it....
Susan
Expressions Pottery Workshop
East Granby, CT
Fabienne Micheline Cassman on sun 13 oct 02
Greetings,
There is a book about design which I am currently reading "Shaping Space"
by Paul Zelanski and Mary Pat Fisher. That's the only one that covers 3D
that I am aware of. I didn't get the new edition which was pricey;
hopefully, I'm not missing out on too much :)
I have also had a taste of the "aura" of a piece in a light speed lecture
and have tried to find out more about it without success. Is anyone
familiar with the concept? TIA
Fabienne
Fabienne Cassman http://www.milkywayceramics.com/
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above
because my cats have apparently learned to type.
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/_ \'. __..-' , ,--...--'''
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`-';' ; ; ;
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Janet Kaiser on sun 13 oct 02
I have been receiving Ceramic Monthly since January. From what I see, half
the makers have no concept of proportion and design, so why worry about a
student who still has time to learn?
Sincerely - if tongue in cheek
Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art =95 Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent, Criccieth LL52 0EA, Wales, UK
Tel: 01766-523570 URL: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
vince pitelka on mon 14 oct 02
> There is a book about design which I am currently reading "Shaping Space"
> by Paul Zelanski and Mary Pat Fisher. That's the only one that covers 3D
> that I am aware of. I didn't get the new edition which was pricey;
> hopefully, I'm not missing out on too much :)
Fabienne -
Excellent recommendation above. This is the ONLY 3-D design book out there
that is worth a damn. But it is very pricey, and I want my students to
spend their money on art materials instead, so I do not use a text in my 3-D
design classes. In the past I have used the older edition in 3-D classes,
and I am sure they are abundantly available from used book dealers on the
Web.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
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