Culling on wed 16 oct 02
I've been making large fish, glazing with dry barium purple/blue/green =
low fire. Now have a problem, someone wants to put hers around/ in / =
over her fish pond, don't want poisoned fish from possible leaching of =
barium!
Any suggestions as to what I could use to seal but not change dry and =
colours?=20
Steph
West Oz - Nearly summer now 35-37 C, daily and AC coming on more =
frequently
Paul Lewing on wed 16 oct 02
on 10/15/02 4:01 PM, Culling at culling@KISSER.NET.AU wrote:
> don't want poisoned fish from possible leaching of =
> barium!
Don't worry about it! There's not a lot of evidence that leaching barium
can hurt people even. And to make it leach, you'd need to let the liquid
sit in the pot for some time and the liquid has to be quite acid, like
vinegar. Even the purest spring water already has more impurities in it
than a fish pond would ever get in a million years from having one of your
pots in it.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
Ron Roy on mon 21 oct 02
What a temtation - to just be quiet and have the point illustrated for all
to hear about.
There was a post on clat art a few years ago - about some one who made a
fish bowl castle - with a barium glaze - and killed all the fish.
Thats my problem - can't be quiet - I do wish someone would do the
experiment - I'll be glad to supply the glaze recipe.
RR
>I've been making large fish, glazing with dry barium purple/blue/green low
>fire. Now have a problem, someone wants to put hers around/ in / over her
>fish pond, don't want poisoned fish from possible leaching of barium!
> Any suggestions as to what I could use to seal but not change dry and
>colours?
>Steph
>
>West Oz - Nearly summer now 35-37 C, daily and AC coming on more frequently
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Ron Roy on mon 21 oct 02
It is not so that you need to have water quite acid to leach materials out
of glazes - we have this misconception about glasses - that they are
something quite non reactive - some are and some are not.
Sodium for instance is very soluble in water - get enough in any glaze and
it lets go. Got to have enough silica and ever thing is all right you say?
Sodium silicate is about 50% sodium and 50% silica - completely soluble in
water.
What do you think those fish are doing in that water - well acidifying it
for one thing - depends how much water, how many fish and how much barium
for starters.
Better test it first - but how?
>> don't want poisoned fish from possible leaching of =
>> barium!
>
>Don't worry about it! There's not a lot of evidence that leaching barium
>can hurt people even. And to make it leach, you'd need to let the liquid
>sit in the pot for some time and the liquid has to be quite acid, like
>vinegar. Even the purest spring water already has more impurities in it
>than a fish pond would ever get in a million years from having one of your
>pots in it.
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Marianne Lombardo on mon 21 oct 02
I have a small green vase that I made and glazed with a commercial green
glossy glaze. No idea what's in the glaze.
This summer I was cutting lilac flowers like mad and filling every possible
container I could find, including some canning jars. I really must get busy
and make myself more vases.
Anyway, I did notice that *every* bunch of flowers that was put into this
particular vase were all wilted and droopy by the next day. After a couple
of weeks I stopped using the vase, although I still have it.
Marianne Lombardo
Omemee, Ontario, Canada
email: mlombardo@nexicom.net
> There was a post on clat art a few years ago - about some one who made a
> fish bowl castle - with a barium glaze - and killed all the fish.
>
Lily Krakowski on mon 21 oct 02
Two questions: Why not use strontium instead of barium? Not that I know
if strontium is better fish food. But also: the Government through its
extension services has more info on fish than anyone can want. I expect an
Aquarium would have as well. Can one not have that glaze tested at Alfred,
or some such submit the results to an Aquarium or some such, like a college
department that cares about fishies, and go from there? You speak of
possible leaching. Well why not add $50 to what you will ask for the tile
and have a lab test? Maybe your anxiety is for nothing, maybe the fishies in
Ron's story died from something else, coincident with the fishhouse.
Ron Roy writes:
> What a temtation - to just be quiet and have the point illustrated for all
> to hear about.
>
> There was a post on clat art a few years ago - about some one who made a
> fish bowl castle - with a barium glaze - and killed all the fish.
>
> Thats problem - can't be quiet - I do wish someone would do the
> experiment - I'll be glad to supply the glaze recipe.
>
> RR
>
>>I've been making large fish, glazing with dry barium purple/blue/green low
>>fire. Now have a problem, someone wants to put hers around/ in / over her
>>fish pond, don't want poisoned fish from possible leaching of barium!
>> Any suggestions as to what I could use to seal but not change dry and
>>colours?
>>Steph
>>
>>West Oz - Nearly summer now 35-37 C, daily and AC coming on more frequently
>
> Ron Roy
> RR#4
> 15084 Little Lake Road
> Brighton, Ontario
> Canada
> K0K 1H0
> Phone: 613-475-9544
> Fax: 613-475-3513
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Lili Krakowski
P.O. Box #1
Constableville, N.Y.
(315) 942-5916/ 397-2389
Be of good courage....
Culling on tue 22 oct 02
They are about 50 cm long sculptural fish.
Haven't used Strontium 'cause it changes the colours and anyway it's a
really dry glaze so don't
know if it mightn't leach something anyway.
As far as I know there is nowhere to get those tests done in Western
Australia anyone out there know of anywhere in Oz?
Just thought there might be a product that could solve the problem without
causing more!
Am getting the analysis of the materials in the glaze to try to reformulate
it to a less dry finish.- anyone got a satin green/purole/blue cone 03-01
glaze?
Steph
----- Original Message -----
From: Lily Krakowski
To:
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: sealing dry barium
> Two questions: Why not use strontium instead of barium? Not that I
know
> if strontium is better fish food. But also: the Government through its
> extension services has more info on fish than anyone can want. I expect
an
> Aquarium would have as well. Can one not have that glaze tested at
Alfred,
> or some such submit the results to an Aquarium or some such, like a
college
> department that cares about fishies, and go from there? You speak of
> possible leaching. Well why not add $50 to what you will ask for the
tile
> and have a lab test? Maybe your anxiety is for nothing, maybe the fishies
in
> Ron's story died from something else, coincident with the fishhouse.
>
>
>
>
>
> Ron Roy writes:
>
> > What a temtation - to just be quiet and have the point illustrated for
all
> > to hear about.
> >
> > There was a post on clat art a few years ago - about some one who made a
> > fish bowl castle - with a barium glaze - and killed all the fish.
> >
> > Thats problem - can't be quiet - I do wish someone would do the
> > experiment - I'll be glad to supply the glaze recipe.
> >
> > RR
> >
> >>I've been making large fish, glazing with dry barium purple/blue/green
low
> >>fire. Now have a problem, someone wants to put hers around/ in / over
her
> >>fish pond, don't want poisoned fish from possible leaching of barium!
> >> Any suggestions as to what I could use to seal but not change dry and
> >>colours?
> >>Steph
> >>
> >>West Oz - Nearly summer now 35-37 C, daily and AC coming on more
frequently
> >
> > Ron Roy
> > RR#4
> > 15084 Little Lake Road
> > Brighton, Ontario
> > Canada
> > K0K 1H0
> > Phone: 613-475-9544
> > Fax: 613-475-3513
> >
> >
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
> Lili Krakowski
> P.O. Box #1
> Constableville, N.Y.
> (315) 942-5916/ 397-2389
>
> Be of good courage....
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Ron Roy on sun 27 oct 02
Hello again Susan,
Less dry is probably not going to help much - those Barium Matts are
unstable in any form - just simply a matter of too much barium making the
glaze unbalanced.
There was also a post here on clayart about some cats that were poisoned
from dricking water from a bucket of Barium glaze - just in case you have
cats or dogs or children around - cover the bucket.
RR
>They are about 50 cm long sculptural fish.
>Haven't used Strontium 'cause it changes the colours and anyway it's a
>really dry glaze so don't
>know if it mightn't leach something anyway.
>As far as I know there is nowhere to get those tests done in Western
>Australia anyone out there know of anywhere in Oz?
>Just thought there might be a product that could solve the problem without
>causing more!
>Am getting the analysis of the materials in the glaze to try to reformulate
>it to a less dry finish.- anyone got a satin green/purole/blue cone 03-01
>glaze?
>Steph
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Paul Lewing on sun 27 oct 02
on 10/27/02 7:45 AM, Ron Roy at ronroy@TOTAL.NET wrote:
> There was also a post here on clayart about some cats that were poisoned
> from dricking water from a bucket of Barium glaze - just in case you have
> cats or dogs or children around - cover the bucket.
Ron, that's good advice.
But I wish I'd responded sooner when you disagreed with my advice to this
person to not worry about putting a pot with a barium glaze on it in a fish
pond. I still say it's nothing to worry about.
We're not talking here about the fish living in the water on top of a bucket
of barium glaze. We're not even talking about the pot being with the fish
in a small aquarium. We're talking about water that's non-acidic enough for
fish to live in it. And we're talking about Barium Oxide, not cyanide.
When you take into consideration the volume of water in even a small pond,
the fact that the water circulates and changes, the fact that the water is
nowhere near as acidic as what you use to test for leaching, and consider
how little BaO is present on the pot and the fact that not all of it would
leach under the worst conditions, I just can't imagine that there would ever
be enough BaO in that water to affect any fish.
I think that we all need to decide where we are willing to draw this line
about potential harm to ourselves, our customers, and their pets. But we
need to do that with the risks put into perspective.
Bottom line- I'd put that pot into that pond without a second thought. But
others might not.
Cheers, Paul Lewing
Gail Dapogny on mon 28 oct 02
Paul Lewing said...> I just can't imagine that there would ever be enough
BaO in that water to affect any fish. I think that we all need to decide
where we are willing to draw this line
>about potential harm to ourselves, our customers, and their pets. But we
>need to do that with the risks put into perspective.
>Bottom line- I'd put that pot into that pond without a second thought. But
>others might not.
But isn't the point here that we DON"T know, and could be really doing some
harm? You "can't imagine" but just maybe that's not good enough. This all
reminds me of the tobacco folks and all of their denial, past and present.
If some time in the future the worst case scenario materializes and the
world catches up with various ceramic practices, we could all find
ourselves suspect and in trouble because of the carelessness so prevalent
today. That might be a perspective worth some second thoughts.
---Gail
Gail Dapogny
1154 Olden Road
Ann Arbor, MI 48103-3005
(734) 665-9816
gdapogny@umich.edu
http://www.silverhawk.com/ex99/dapogny (single historical photo - no longer
registered with Silverhawk)
June Perry on mon 28 oct 02
Paul, I tend to agree with you. When you read the breakdown on barium and the
amount of barium that occurs naturally in a lot of drinking water in this
country, I don't think a couple of barium glazed fish in a large koi pond are
going to leach enough barium in that environment to bring a dangerous level
of barium into the water.
If the owner or potter is concerned, maybe they can try coating the pieces
with a clear, matt, marine varnish or some water proof silicone type coating
if suitable.
Regards,
June Perry
http://www.angelfire.com/art2/shambhalapottery/index.html
Paul Lewing on mon 28 oct 02
on 10/27/02 9:36 PM, Gail Dapogny at gdapogny@UMICH.EDU wrote:
> But isn't the point here that we DON"T know, and could be really doing some
> harm? You "can't imagine" but just maybe that's not good enough. This all
> reminds me of the tobacco folks and all of their denial, past and present.
> If some time in the future the worst case scenario materializes and the
> world catches up with various ceramic practices, we could all find
> ourselves suspect and in trouble because of the carelessness so prevalent
> today. That might be a perspective worth some second thoughts.
You are of course right, Gail. We don't know. But I think that to get
perspective on this issue you do have to imagine how much barium is likely
to be present in water in that fish pond. So let's make some reasonable
assumptions and look at what we do know about how things leach and in what
quantities.
Let's assume the pond is quite small- one cubic meter. That would be about
the size of a bathtub.
Let's assume there's 100 grams dry weight of glaze present on the pot, which
seems reasonable for a medium sized pot.
Let's assume that the recipe for this glaze calls for 25% barium carbonate,
which would make it what most people would consider a high-barium glaze.
Let's assume the water is neither acidic or alkaline, but neutral.
We know that the drinking water standard for barium oxide is no more than 2
parts per million. That's the figure quoted in Ron and John's book.
We know that the loss on ignition for barium carbonate is about 22%, meaning
there are about 19-20 grams of barium oxide total on that pot.
We know that a cubic meter of water weighs a million grams, so it takes 2
grams of barium oxide to exceed the limit.
We know that the leach test that is used to see how much oxide will leach
out of a glaze consists of putting a small amount of pure acid in a glazed
container and letting it sit undisturbed for three days.
So.... how likely is it that pH neutral water will leach 2 grams of barium
oxide off that pot? How likely is it that the water will never be changed?
Remember, if it actually did leach 2 grams (enough to violate the drinking
water standard) then if the water was changed ten times, there wouldn't be
any barium left at all. What if we're talking about a pond containing ten
cubic meters of water? Then if all of the barium on that pot leached into
the water at once, we'd be just at the threshold.
So I say again, I'd put that pot in that pond without a second thought. But
I'd also respect your decision to not do that. I just think the pipes that
bring the water to the pond would be a greater potential source of metallic
oxides in that pond than that pot.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
"You think I'm in denial, but I'm not. I'm really NOT!" (G)
Ditmar on mon 28 oct 02
Don't think in terms of water volume... Think surface area. You can have a
container of water with one gallon volume and five square feet of surface
area....lots more leaching. Or... a one gallon container with a foot and a
half of surface area.
DH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Lewing"
To:
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: sealing dry barium
> on 10/27/02 9:36 PM, Gail Dapogny at gdapogny@UMICH.EDU wrote:
>
> Let's assume the pond is quite small- one cubic meter. That would be
about
> the size of a bathtub.
> Let's assume there's 100 grams dry weight of glaze present on the pot,
which
> seems reasonable for a medium sized pot.
>
What if we're talking about a pond containing ten
> cubic meters of water? Then if all of the barium on that pot leached into
> the water at once, we'd be just at the threshold.
>
> So I say again, I'd put that pot in that pond without a second thought.
But
> I'd also respect your decision to not do that. I just think the pipes
that
> bring the water to the pond would be a greater potential source of
metallic
> oxides in that pond than that pot.
>
> Paul Lewing, Seattle
> "You think I'm in denial, but I'm not. I'm really NOT!" (G)
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
Paul Lewing on tue 29 oct 02
on 10/28/02 5:25 PM, Ditmar at hoerld001@HAWAII.RR.COM wrote:
> Don't think in terms of water volume... Think surface area. You can have a
> container of water with one gallon volume and five square feet of surface
> area....lots more leaching. Or... a one gallon container with a foot and a
> half of surface area.
You might have a good point there, Ditmar, but it seems to me the surface
area of the glazed pot would be the issue, not the surface area of the
container (the pond).
But none of that has anything to do with my assessment that there isn't
enough barium present here to hurt a fish, and that water that could support
a fish can't be acidic enough to leach much barium anyway.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
Edouard Bastarache on tue 29 oct 02
" You might have a good point there, Ditmar, but it seems to me the surface
area of the glazed pot would be the issue, not the surface area of the
container (the pond).
But none of that has anything to do with my assessment that there isn't
enough barium present here to hurt a fish, and that water that could
support
a fish can't be acidic enough to leach much barium anyway.
Paul Lewing, Seattle"
Right on Paul,
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
____________________________________________________________________________
Ron Roy on thu 31 oct 02
Been talking to my brother Alan - a trained biologist - did years of
research on fish - still think it's taking a chance - especially if it's a
closed system - just remember - I said don't do it and I still say don't do
it.
RR- who thinks taking chances with toxic materials is folly - and a bad
example to those who don't think there is any danger.
>> There was also a post here on clayart about some cats that were poisoned
>> from dricking water from a bucket of Barium glaze - just in case you have
>> cats or dogs or children around - cover the bucket.
>
>Ron, that's good advice.
>But I wish I'd responded sooner when you disagreed with my advice to this
>person to not worry about putting a pot with a barium glaze on it in a fish
>pond. I still say it's nothing to worry about.
>We're not talking here about the fish living in the water on top of a bucket
>of barium glaze. We're not even talking about the pot being with the fish
>in a small aquarium. We're talking about water that's non-acidic enough for
>fish to live in it. And we're talking about Barium Oxide, not cyanide.
>When you take into consideration the volume of water in even a small pond,
>the fact that the water circulates and changes, the fact that the water is
>nowhere near as acidic as what you use to test for leaching, and consider
>how little BaO is present on the pot and the fact that not all of it would
>leach under the worst conditions, I just can't imagine that there would ever
>be enough BaO in that water to affect any fish.
>I think that we all need to decide where we are willing to draw this line
>about potential harm to ourselves, our customers, and their pets. But we
>need to do that with the risks put into perspective.
>Bottom line- I'd put that pot into that pond without a second thought. But
>others might not.
>Cheers, Paul Lewing
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Edouard Bastarache on thu 31 oct 02
Hello all,
barium is not considered a potent CHRONIC toxicant by ingestion.
So, why all that fuss!!!
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
John Baymore on fri 1 nov 02
Been talking to my brother Alan - a trained biologist - did years of
research on fish - still think it's taking a chance - especially if it's =
a
closed system - just remember - I said don't do it and I still say don't =
do
it.
Many years ago I used to keep a marine aquarium. Closed system.
It was amazing how easy it was to get the water chemistry a little
off...... and start killing various organisms. Different fish and
invertabrates have different "resistance" to certain water chemistry
conditions. Some are very sensitive.
Lacking data....... wonder exactly how much barium in the H2O it would ta=
ke
to kill or injure various types of fish?
Best,
..............................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JohnBaymore.com
JBaymore@compuserve.com
Edouard Bastarache on fri 1 nov 02
Hello John,
maybe this could help.
1-Environmental :
Barium naturally occurs at low concentrations in ambient air, usually < 0.05
µg/m3, but is found at relatively high concentrations in soils , nearly 500
mg/kg. In fresh surface water, concentrations may vary from =< 5 to 15,000
µg/L. and it contributes to water hardness. Foodstuffs provide also barium
and the daily human intake has been estimated to be in the order of 1 mg.
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
Ron Roy on sun 3 nov 02
Yes - Alan said Carp have much better resistance to polution of any kind
than say trout. He also said fish take water in through their bodies and
gills - they tend to consentrate what ever is in the water - it means for
instance - don't eat fish from Lake Ontario.
He has many stories about what has been going on in some of our lakes and
streams - all while the athorities are watching.
RR
>Been talking to my brother Alan - a trained biologist - did years of
>research on fish - still think it's taking a chance - especially if it's a
>closed system - just remember - I said don't do it and I still say don't do
>it.
>
>
>Many years ago I used to keep a marine aquarium. Closed system.
>
>It was amazing how easy it was to get the water chemistry a little
>off...... and start killing various organisms. Different fish and
>invertabrates have different "resistance" to certain water chemistry
>conditions. Some are very sensitive.
>
>Lacking data....... wonder exactly how much barium in the H2O it would take
>to kill or injure various types of fish?
>
>Best,
>
>..............................john
>
>John Baymore
>River Bend Pottery
>22 Riverbend Way
>Wilton, NH 03086 USA
>
>603-654-2752 (s)
>800-900-1110 (s)
>
>JohnBaymore.com
>
>JBaymore@compuserve.com
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
| |
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