Philip Poburka on sun 20 oct 02
Certainly, you do not want any Water to be absorbed into the
piece, into 'this' piece, as for which you want to make a
Mould.
Being Wood, and (where do you live? I forgot, sorry...but
depending on the more or less present ambient humidity where
you are) the piece being 'old', it may be very absorbant,
and such may well hurt it or hurt the appearance of it,
anyway...
Similarly, so far as any 'finish' or residual Gilding or
what as may remain on the surface...and not knowing what
solvent base of remedials may have been done 'when'...it
would be best to test some small, and if possible, some
inconspicuous area of it, with any prospective Mould-Making
candidate...
Some kinds of Puddy (maybe 'sculpy'?) may be had as have
almost no transferable solvent in them...and...should you
say, chill the piece with the Puddy on it, and keep the
Puddy cold...an impression may be made with little danger to
the piece itself...at least as from interference from
chemical migrations...maybe...would work for some of
it...but be tough to get a 'whole' Mould made up that
way...but maybe you can.
Just a thought...
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Longtin"
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: Making bisque mold from an 300 yr old figure
Gayle,
In case you're not familiar with alginate it's a water based
molding product
that has a texture similar to gelatin and is non-toxic. Its
an odd
application I know but since you mention the preciousness of
the pieces I
MIGHT try it?
If you were to walk in my door with the piece I'd probably
caution that the
piece probably will be damaged in the process and leave it
at that. I've
never damaged a piece that wasn't expected but then
sometimes I do need to
experiment alittle to come up with the best solution.
Years ago a woman called wanting to mold a rare sculpture of
Jesus in her
church. We must have talked for about 45 minutes during
which time I
cautioned her profusely that the piece could be damaged.
Knowing that the
project was precarious I gave her a high bid. Six months
later she called me
in tears. She chose to go with a cheaper moldmaker and they
completely ruined
the piece. Apparently they guaranteed that there would be no
damage. For some
reason they ruined the mold in the process as well. She was
left with a
ruined sculpture and a useless mold and they charged her
about $1500.00
dollars.
Some molding projects are very complicated.
Good luck with it.
Jeff
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claybair on sun 20 oct 02
A local store owner has several 300 year old wooden oriental prayer
sculptural figures. They are sooo beautiful. I admired them and asked her if
I could take a clay impression of them. She said yes and offered a back room
for me to do it.
Now my question is how to make an impression without damaging them.
I do not want to spray or wipe any mold release on them. I was thinking of
using a thin plastic like dry cleaner plastic. Holding the plastic taut
while impressing it into a pad of soft clay then releasing the plastic to
get the details.
Any other suggestions?
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
Jeff Longtin on sun 20 oct 02
Gayle,
Truthfully I don't think the clay idea is a good one, at least for good
detail reproduction.
FYI- as long as the object has a good wax surface sheen I don't think
sticking would be that big a problem but...with old objects you just never
know?
A more reasonable solution may be to use alginate (also known as dental
alginate). It is designed to be used against human skin so it is very
forgiving. I've not used it against bare wood before but you might give it a
try. It seems to stick to nothing so I think it may be your best bet. It sets
up in about 5-10 minutes so you can pull the mold really quickly. I would
suggest you test it against bare wood though before giving it a try. It gives
great detail by the way.
Good luck
Jeff Longtin
claybair on sun 20 oct 02
Jeff,
The surface doesn't have any sheen... no wax no shellac
just delicate bare wood appearing to have been stained or painted long ago.
One of the figures has some gilt that seems to be flaking off...... I
wouldn't touch that one!
I'd be hesitant to use the alginate.
The face is just so simple & serene.....
there must be a way to capture it without harming it.
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Jeff Longtin
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 3:03 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Making bisque mold from an 300 yr old figure
Gayle,
Truthfully I don't think the clay idea is a good one, at least for good
detail reproduction.
FYI- as long as the object has a good wax surface sheen I don't think
sticking would be that big a problem but...with old objects you just never
know?
A more reasonable solution may be to use alginate (also known as dental
alginate). It is designed to be used against human skin so it is very
forgiving. I've not used it against bare wood before but you might give it a
try. It seems to stick to nothing so I think it may be your best bet. It
sets
up in about 5-10 minutes so you can pull the mold really quickly. I would
suggest you test it against bare wood though before giving it a try. It
gives
great detail by the way.
Good luck
Jeff Longtin
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Jeff Longtin on sun 20 oct 02
Gayle,
In case you're not familiar with alginate it's a water based molding product
that has a texture similar to gelatin and is non-toxic. Its an odd
application I know but since you mention the preciousness of the pieces I
MIGHT try it?
If you were to walk in my door with the piece I'd probably caution that the
piece probably will be damaged in the process and leave it at that. I've
never damaged a piece that wasn't expected but then sometimes I do need to
experiment alittle to come up with the best solution.
Years ago a woman called wanting to mold a rare sculpture of Jesus in her
church. We must have talked for about 45 minutes during which time I
cautioned her profusely that the piece could be damaged. Knowing that the
project was precarious I gave her a high bid. Six months later she called me
in tears. She chose to go with a cheaper moldmaker and they completely ruined
the piece. Apparently they guaranteed that there would be no damage. For some
reason they ruined the mold in the process as well. She was left with a
ruined sculpture and a useless mold and they charged her about $1500.00
dollars.
Some molding projects are very complicated.
Good luck with it.
Jeff
Eric Suchman on mon 21 oct 02
There is a mold making substance called "Mold-It" that might do the
trick....I believe it is latex rubber based. Made by Joli Plastics and
Chemical. Don't know the web site or contact info. They also might have
other suggestions. The special effects industry has a mold making substance
that they use that might work as well can't remember the name but it is
re-usable and begins with an 'm' (moulage?) Goes on warm. Sets and comes
off quickly.
That's my bit of input.
Eric in Oceanside
Diane Winters on mon 21 oct 02
Hi Gayle,
I don't have a mold material suggestion, but I do want to mention another
possible approach. It definitely involves more work, and understandably may
not be something you'll want to do. Anyway, here t'is.
Take several photographs from various angles - front, profile, 3/4 view at
the very least - and then, working from the pictures model it yourself. (I
SAID it was more work). Several advantages though, should you be willing to
do it.
1. There's no chance of damaging the original piece.
2. You can make it larger (or smaller) than the original if you wish.
3. You will come to understand that face's form in a fuller way by modeling
it than by molding it.
I was once commissioned to produce a clay version of a charming wooden folk
carving of a "green man" face - it was a feature in the fireplace mantel of
an historic house that's open to the public and they thought it would sell
well in their gift shop. I worked from photos I took and really surprised
myself by actually being able to capture it completely, right down to its
little wisp of a smile.
What ever you decide to do, good luck with it.
Diane Winters
in Oakland/Berkeley, CA
Gayle wrote
-
>A local store owner has several 300 year old wooden oriental prayer
>sculptural figures. They are sooo beautiful. I admired them and asked her
if
>I could take a clay impression of them. She said yes and offered a back
room
>for me to do it.
>
>Now my question is how to make an impression without damaging them.
>I do not want to spray or wipe any mold release on them. I was thinking of
>using a thin plastic like dry cleaner plastic. Holding the plastic taut
>while impressing it into a pad of soft clay then releasing the plastic to
>get the details.
>
>Any other suggestions?
>
Bobbruch1@AOL.COM on mon 21 oct 02
I am going to try to use alginate to make molds of the details to repair an
old picture frame, and my dentist has offered to help. I believe that
alginate is only sold in large quantities, although there may be a type that
isn't specifically for the dental market. He offered to make the molds, since
he feels that it can be a trickey substance to learn to use. Don't know if
that is right, but you might want to try it on another piece of wood before
attempting to mold the originals. Also, it needs to be used quickly, perhaps
within three or four hours, so you may have to make a solid piece from which
you could make plaster molds. I don't know if that solid form could be in
plaster, but there are people on Clayart who may have experience with that
process.
<<<<known as dental alginate). It is designed to be used against human skin so it
is very
forgiving. I've not used it against bare wood before but you might give it a
try. It seems to stick to nothing so I think it may be your best bet. It sets
up in about 5-10 minutes so you can pull the mold really quickly. I would
suggest you test it against bare wood though before giving it a try. It gives
great detail by the way. Good luck - Jeff Longtin
Chris on mon 21 oct 02
I have used dental alginate before and i really love it. it works really
quickly and picks up wonderful details like fingerprints, but i have not
tried it on wood. you can buy it in small quantitites at your local craft
store - it is in those kits for casting baby hands or you can try to buy it
online - which is much cheaper - it is $5/pound on ebay. One thing to keep
in mind is that if you use any kind of latex mold, you need to use plaster
in your mold and not clay - the latex doesn't breathe and so your clay will
never dry - so make your positive out of plaster and then make a negative
mold from plaster or clay.
chris in conway, arkansas
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 6:48 AM
Subject: Making bisque mold from an 300 yr old figure
> I am going to try to use alginate to make molds of the details to repair
an
> old picture frame, and my dentist has offered to help. I believe that
> alginate is only sold in large quantities, although there may be a type
that
> isn't specifically for the dental market. He offered to make the molds,
since
> he feels that it can be a trickey substance to learn to use. Don't know if
> that is right, but you might want to try it on another piece of wood
before
> attempting to mold the originals. Also, it needs to be used quickly,
perhaps
> within three or four hours, so you may have to make a solid piece from
which
> you could make plaster molds. I don't know if that solid form could be in
> plaster, but there are people on Clayart who may have experience with that
> process.
>
>
> <<<<> known as dental alginate). It is designed to be used against human skin so
it
> is very
> forgiving. I've not used it against bare wood before but you might give it
a
> try. It seems to stick to nothing so I think it may be your best bet. It
sets
> up in about 5-10 minutes so you can pull the mold really quickly. I would
> suggest you test it against bare wood though before giving it a try. It
gives
> great detail by the way. Good luck - Jeff Longtin
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
John Jensen on mon 21 oct 02
Dianne's idea of copying the artwork rather than making a mold for it is
a good one I think; but it makes me remember an interesting fact.
It seems that we have certain cultural biases in our perceptions of art
which are invisible to us. This is made apparent when noticing the
success of art forgeries: Certain forgeries in the past centuries were
completely successful, yet today they are obviously not accurate.
Somehow in our own time we are caught up in what might be a fashion of
perception and cannot see beyond it, but in another age we are able to
see through it completely.
So I'm thinking that in the process of copying a work of art we might
make what seems to us a perfect copy, only to discover a decade later
that it is really not so perfect.
John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery
mudbug@toadhouse.com, www.toadhouse.com
Jim Murphy on mon 21 oct 02
on 10/21/02 6:48 AM, Bobbruch1@AOL.COM at Bobbruch1@AOL.COM wrote:
> I am going to try to use alginate to make molds of the details to repair an
> old picture frame, and my dentist has offered to help. I believe that
> alginate is only sold in large quantities, although there may be a type that
> isn't specifically for the dental market.
I've used Polytek's product called "Hydrogel" which is alginate. It's a very
lightweight fluffy powder - a little goes a long way. It's simple to use
although I haven't tried it on wood.
http://www.polytek.com/html/alginate_contact-safe_mold_rub.html
Good luck,
Jim Murphy
Kara Rennert on mon 21 oct 02
http://www.artmolds.com/
this site has a few alginates, and sells in smaller quantities. although it is more
expensive than buying in larger quantities of course. i recently purchased some
from them, but haven't used it yet.
Bobbruch1@AOL.COM wrote:
> I am going to try to use alginate to make molds of the details to repair an
> old picture frame, and my dentist has offered to help. I believe that
> alginate is only sold in large quantities, although there may be a type that
> isn't specifically for the dental market.
Harrington on mon 21 oct 02
Hi. Just a comment on using latex molds with clay. Since I don't know
what the figurines look like, this may not work for you. It involves a
lot of hand re-working of the product which might compromise the look of
the figurines. But, for the record, this is what I do:
I make the mold out of a two part polyurithane product from Smooth-On
molds. I make a mold in two pieces, or more if necessary, and then,
before removing the mold from the original, I make a plaster mother mold
that follows the contours of the rubber mold pieces. So when I take the
mold off the original, I have two rubber pieces that fit into two
plaster pieces. I then lay the mold pieces on pillows for support so
they don't roll around. I press regular, moist clay into the molds
(remember, the rubber piece is inside the plaster piece) in little
globs, smearing the edges so that it all looks smooth on the surface.
When I've got enough clay pressed in there (usually about 3/4 inches
thick all around for my portrait heads) I just let them lay there open
over night. The next day or they are usually hardened enough - not quite
leather hard - to simply peel off the molds. Then I join the two sides
together. This is where you lose detail because of the scoring and
slipping and mushing involved in joining two pieces of clay. I then
rework the seams so they blend in with the rest of the sculpture, and go
over the surface cleaning up any areas where the pressed clay didn't go
quite right. Then I just dry it, fire it, and voila! But this will only
work if you can clean it up to your satisfaction and if the pieces are
large enough for this type of mold. Fine, doll like minatures would not
work this way.
Lisa
Chris wrote:
>
> I have used dental alginate before and i really love it. it works really
> quickly and picks up wonderful details like fingerprints, but i have not
> tried it on wood. you can buy it in small quantitites at your local craft
> store - it is in those kits for casting baby hands or you can try to buy it
> online - which is much cheaper - it is $5/pound on ebay. One thing to keep
> in mind is that if you use any kind of latex mold, you need to use plaster
> in your mold and not clay - the latex doesn't breathe and so your clay will
> never dry - so make your positive out of plaster and then make a negative
> mold from plaster or clay.
>
> chris in conway, arkansas
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To:
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 6:48 AM
> Subject: Making bisque mold from an 300 yr old figure
>
> > I am going to try to use alginate to make molds of the details to repair
> an
> > old picture frame, and my dentist has offered to help. I believe that
> > alginate is only sold in large quantities, although there may be a type
> that
> > isn't specifically for the dental market. He offered to make the molds,
> since
> > he feels that it can be a trickey substance to learn to use. Don't know if
> > that is right, but you might want to try it on another piece of wood
> before
> > attempting to mold the originals. Also, it needs to be used quickly,
> perhaps
> > within three or four hours, so you may have to make a solid piece from
> which
> > you could make plaster molds. I don't know if that solid form could be in
> > plaster, but there are people on Clayart who may have experience with that
> > process.
> >
> >
> > <<<<> > known as dental alginate). It is designed to be used against human skin so
> it
> > is very
> > forgiving. I've not used it against bare wood before but you might give it
> a
> > try. It seems to stick to nothing so I think it may be your best bet. It
> sets
> > up in about 5-10 minutes so you can pull the mold really quickly. I would
> > suggest you test it against bare wood though before giving it a try. It
> gives
> > great detail by the way. Good luck - Jeff Longtin
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Paul Gerhold on wed 23 oct 02
Gayle,
I would strongly suggest you talk to one of the larger metal foundries like
Shidoni or Tallix. They have the experience to handle the project and if too
expensive might at least give you proper advice.
A lot of foundries advertise in Sculpture Magazine-who knows there may be a
good one nearby.
Paul
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