Chris Clyburn on mon 21 oct 02
Lily,
I promise to be careful using manganese. I have a wife who would make me
wish she would kill me if I _ever_ used any toxic oxide without proper
gear. So in the case of manganese that means a respirator at all times,
just to be safe :-). As far as just using a slip for what I'm doing, it
won't work. I am making a black and white agate ware piece...where two
different colored clay bodies are wedged into a marble pattern then thrown
to look like agate. I can't get that effect with a slip :-) I have always
beleived that most of the chemicals we work with are dangerous, but can be
safe with the proper precautions. I never mess with oxide colored clay
with any cuts on my hand, nor do I ever glaze without respirator and
gloves. The only chemicals I avoid in clay bodies are the ones that can be
absorbed through the skin, because I can't throw with gloves on.
MY philosophy on toxic chemicals is if it can be substituted for something
safer and achieve the same or _very_ similar effect then by all means use
it. But if not, use common sense, don't get cocky and sloppy, and take
proper precautions. Above all, _know_ what you are using, always read the
MSDS. Treat chemicals like snakes, don't fear them, but _do_ have a
healthy respect for them. If you live in fear of something you'll never
get anything acomplished. And do try and dispose of the really toxic stuff
properly. Don't just wash it down the sink. Otherwise all your precations
are for naught when you pour a glass of water and drink your glaze you
rinsed out of your brushes a few weeks ago. Look at the MSDS for proper
disposal techniques and find a way of accomadating. If we banned all the
bad chemicals in our studio, we wouldn't have much left to work with. So,
just use proper precaution and know your stuff and you'll be okay. Get
careless or overconfident or start thinking it's too inconveniet to use
precaution and the snake will strike.
I'm just a 28 year old college student, so I am fortunate enough to start
conciously creating good habits with safety. I think everyone should look
at their habits and analyze how their practices might affect them when
using toxics and act accordingly. Too many times I see potters saying they
should ban this chemical or that chemical, when if people just used their
brains instead of letting the goverment think for them the toxicity would
not be a problem. I mean we live in a society where because some people
have peanut allergies (for example) they have to put a label on a bag of
peanuts saying "warning, contains nuts". And I wish I were joking about
that. People are letting others think for them instead of learning for
themselves.
Sorry I know I'm ranting (and I promise Lily, it's not at you) I just have
seen too many people complain how they weren't warned of one thing or
another, when 9 times out of 10 the fault was with the person's own lack
of research, and complacency in letting the government or the packaging or
anything else besides them actually do the thinking for them. Parents
wanting to ban violent movies, video games, requiring internet filters,
etc, so they don't have to actually watch waht there kids are doing.
Blaming society because their little ankle biter is a hellion when it is
actually a lack of parental supervision. I don't need anybody to tell my
kids whats good and bad for em, I'll tell em myself. Sorry, I just hate
the sheep syndrome modern culture is developing. I'm getting off topic so
I'll hand the soap box over to another. Sorry Lily, it wasn't directed at
you, I just tend to let one comment lead to another until I'm lecturing.
You always have loads of great info to share so I deffinately value your
input. Thnaks for the concern about the Manganese, but I'll be careful, or
if I ever get to NCEACA ya'll see me with flayed skin. My wife has a
_sharp_ tongue. Her favorite quote, to give you an idea, is "Sarcasm is a
scalpel, not a Bludgeon"
Chris Clyburn
Some people execise before class or work, I just go on a morning rant :-)
Jennifer F Boyer on mon 21 oct 02
Hi Chris,
Since I've been told that the main danger using manganese is in
fumes coming from the kiln, can you tell us what kind of fume
respirator you use when checking the kiln? My respirator is for
dusts, and I'm wondering what kind would be good for kiln
fumes. I've NEVER met a kiln vent that catches all the fumes.....
Jennifer
Chris Clyburn wrote:
>
> Lily,
>
> I promise to be careful using manganese. I have a wife who would make me
> wish she would kill me if I _ever_ used any toxic oxide without proper
> gear. So in the case of manganese that means a respirator at all times,
> just to be safe :-). As far as just using a slip for what I'm doing, it
> won't work. I am making a black and white agate ware piece...where two
> different colored clay bodies are wedged into a marble pattern then thrown
> to look like agate. I can't get that effect with a slip :-) I have always
> beleived that most of the chemicals we work with are dangerous, but can be
> safe with the proper precautions. I never mess with oxide colored clay
> with any cuts on my hand, nor do I ever glaze without respirator and
> gloves. The only chemicals I avoid in clay bodies are the ones that can be
> absorbed through the skin, because I can't throw with gloves on.
>
> MY philosophy on toxic chemicals is if it can be substituted for something
> safer and achieve the same or _very_ similar effect then by all means use
> it. But if not, use common sense, don't get cocky and sloppy, and take
> proper precautions. Above all, _know_ what you are using, always read the
> MSDS. Treat chemicals like snakes, don't fear them, but _do_ have a
> healthy respect for them. If you live in fear of something you'll never
> get anything acomplished. And do try and dispose of the really toxic stuff
> properly. Don't just wash it down the sink. Otherwise all your precations
> are for naught when you pour a glass of water and drink your glaze you
> rinsed out of your brushes a few weeks ago. Look at the MSDS for proper
> disposal techniques and find a way of accomadating. If we banned all the
> bad chemicals in our studio, we wouldn't have much left to work with. So,
> just use proper precaution and know your stuff and you'll be okay. Get
> careless or overconfident or start thinking it's too inconveniet to use
> precaution and the snake will strike.
>
> I'm just a 28 year old college student, so I am fortunate enough to start
> conciously creating good habits with safety. I think everyone should look
> at their habits and analyze how their practices might affect them when
> using toxics and act accordingly. Too many times I see potters saying they
> should ban this chemical or that chemical, when if people just used their
> brains instead of letting the goverment think for them the toxicity would
> not be a problem. I mean we live in a society where because some people
> have peanut allergies (for example) they have to put a label on a bag of
> peanuts saying "warning, contains nuts". And I wish I were joking about
> that. People are letting others think for them instead of learning for
> themselves.
>
> Sorry I know I'm ranting (and I promise Lily, it's not at you) I just have
> seen too many people complain how they weren't warned of one thing or
> another, when 9 times out of 10 the fault was with the person's own lack
> of research, and complacency in letting the government or the packaging or
> anything else besides them actually do the thinking for them. Parents
> wanting to ban violent movies, video games, requiring internet filters,
> etc, so they don't have to actually watch waht there kids are doing.
> Blaming society because their little ankle biter is a hellion when it is
> actually a lack of parental supervision. I don't need anybody to tell my
> kids whats good and bad for em, I'll tell em myself. Sorry, I just hate
> the sheep syndrome modern culture is developing. I'm getting off topic so
> I'll hand the soap box over to another. Sorry Lily, it wasn't directed at
> you, I just tend to let one comment lead to another until I'm lecturing.
> You always have loads of great info to share so I deffinately value your
> input. Thnaks for the concern about the Manganese, but I'll be careful, or
> if I ever get to NCEACA ya'll see me with flayed skin. My wife has a
> _sharp_ tongue. Her favorite quote, to give you an idea, is "Sarcasm is a
> scalpel, not a Bludgeon"
>
> Chris Clyburn
> Some people execise before class or work, I just go on a morning rant :-)
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Jennifer Boyer mailto:jboyer@adelphia.net
Thistle Hill Pottery Montpelier VT USA
http://www.thistlehillpottery.com/
Never pass on an email warning without checking out these sites
for web hoaxes and junk:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/
http://snopes.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Brian Crocker on tue 22 oct 02
G'Day Jennifer,
I have used simple respirators in the chemical industry that will filter out
acid fumes (6% hydrochloric). They are only for a one-off 15 minutes use, so
I would assume they are OK for Manganese, also for a short time. But I would
first check with the manufacturer.
Kind regards,
CROC.
==================
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jennifer F Boyer"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: Manganese? Did someone say Manganese?/Chris's Rant
> Hi Chris,
> Since I've been told that the main danger using manganese is in
> fumes coming from the kiln, can you tell us what kind of fume
> respirator you use when checking the kiln? My respirator is for
> dusts, and I'm wondering what kind would be good for kiln
> fumes. I've NEVER met a kiln vent that catches all the fumes.....
> Jennifer
>
> Chris Clyburn wrote:
> >
> > Lily,
> >
> > I promise to be careful using manganese. I have a wife who would make me
> > wish she would kill me if I _ever_ used any toxic oxide without proper
> > gear. So in the case of manganese that means a respirator at all times,
> > just to be safe :-). As far as just using a slip for what I'm doing, it
> > won't work. I am making a black and white agate ware piece...where two
> > different colored clay bodies are wedged into a marble pattern then
thrown
> > to look like agate. I can't get that effect with a slip :-) I have
always
> > beleived that most of the chemicals we work with are dangerous, but can
be
> > safe with the proper precautions. I never mess with oxide colored clay
> > with any cuts on my hand, nor do I ever glaze without respirator and
> > gloves. The only chemicals I avoid in clay bodies are the ones that can
be
> > absorbed through the skin, because I can't throw with gloves on.
> >
> > MY philosophy on toxic chemicals is if it can be substituted for
something
> > safer and achieve the same or _very_ similar effect then by all means
use
> > it. But if not, use common sense, don't get cocky and sloppy, and take
> > proper precautions. Above all, _know_ what you are using, always read
the
> > MSDS. Treat chemicals like snakes, don't fear them, but _do_ have a
> > healthy respect for them. If you live in fear of something you'll never
> > get anything acomplished. And do try and dispose of the really toxic
stuff
> > properly. Don't just wash it down the sink. Otherwise all your
precations
> > are for naught when you pour a glass of water and drink your glaze you
> > rinsed out of your brushes a few weeks ago. Look at the MSDS for proper
> > disposal techniques and find a way of accomadating. If we banned all the
> > bad chemicals in our studio, we wouldn't have much left to work with.
So,
> > just use proper precaution and know your stuff and you'll be okay. Get
> > careless or overconfident or start thinking it's too inconveniet to use
> > precaution and the snake will strike.
> >
> > I'm just a 28 year old college student, so I am fortunate enough to
start
> > conciously creating good habits with safety. I think everyone should
look
> > at their habits and analyze how their practices might affect them when
> > using toxics and act accordingly. Too many times I see potters saying
they
> > should ban this chemical or that chemical, when if people just used
their
> > brains instead of letting the goverment think for them the toxicity
would
> > not be a problem. I mean we live in a society where because some people
> > have peanut allergies (for example) they have to put a label on a bag of
> > peanuts saying "warning, contains nuts". And I wish I were joking about
> > that. People are letting others think for them instead of learning for
> > themselves.
> >
> > Sorry I know I'm ranting (and I promise Lily, it's not at you) I just
have
> > seen too many people complain how they weren't warned of one thing or
> > another, when 9 times out of 10 the fault was with the person's own lack
> > of research, and complacency in letting the government or the packaging
or
> > anything else besides them actually do the thinking for them. Parents
> > wanting to ban violent movies, video games, requiring internet filters,
> > etc, so they don't have to actually watch waht there kids are doing.
> > Blaming society because their little ankle biter is a hellion when it is
> > actually a lack of parental supervision. I don't need anybody to tell my
> > kids whats good and bad for em, I'll tell em myself. Sorry, I just hate
> > the sheep syndrome modern culture is developing. I'm getting off topic
so
> > I'll hand the soap box over to another. Sorry Lily, it wasn't directed
at
> > you, I just tend to let one comment lead to another until I'm lecturing.
> > You always have loads of great info to share so I deffinately value your
> > input. Thnaks for the concern about the Manganese, but I'll be careful,
or
> > if I ever get to NCEACA ya'll see me with flayed skin. My wife has a
> > _sharp_ tongue. Her favorite quote, to give you an idea, is "Sarcasm is
a
> > scalpel, not a Bludgeon"
> >
> > Chris Clyburn
> > Some people execise before class or work, I just go on a morning rant
:-)
> >
> >
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
> --
> ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
> Jennifer Boyer mailto:jboyer@adelphia.net
> Thistle Hill Pottery Montpelier VT USA
> http://www.thistlehillpottery.com/
>
> Never pass on an email warning without checking out these sites
> for web hoaxes and junk:
> http://urbanlegends.about.com/
> http://snopes.com
> ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
bnsaijim on tue 22 oct 02
Hi,
I'm a lurker who also happens to be an Industrial Hygienist
of 15 years+ with a lot of initials on my card. I fell in
love with clay about 10 months ago when I took a class on
making pots for my main obsession - bonsai. Keep in mind I
know much more about IH than the pottery process; I'm
working on it though!
There is very little data directly related to exposures in
the pottery industry, let alone the "lone potter". Most
toxicology literature reflects animal studies, industrial
hygiene/epidemiological studies of industry workers,
accidents where exposures are reconstructed or estimated, or
human studies conducted during the World Wars.
I am very much against the "Chicken-Little" approach. My
gut feeling is that unless you are generating aerosols-
i.e., mixing your own clay/ingredients, generating clouds of
dusts, sanding or using air sprayers, your exposures are
relatively low and can be minimized fairly easily.
Chris's "rant" held several safety gems! Housekeeping and
personal hygiene, as I discussed with Lily off-list,
including the "wet methods" of cleaning, are all prudent.
To answer the initial question (and then the industrial
hygiene lecture) - the type of respirator you want, or
cartridge, is a DFM = "dust, fume, mist". Fumes are still
"particulate" in nature- just very small in size.
The limit for elemental Mn is 0.2 mg/m^3, which is very low.
With no monitoring data on the airborn concentrations,
making a specific recommendation is difficult. A disposable
particulate respirator (i.e., looks like a dust mask) COULD
be adequate if you are not generating visible emissions.
You'd be looking for something with an "N95" rating, or
better still "N100". I would question any benefit of a mask
of this style claiming the ability to filter gases.
To err on the side of safety a "real" respirator such as a
half mask with DFM cartridges should be used. Here you can
use "piggyback" cartridges that will not only filter out
particulates but also capture acid gases, organics, etc. My
thought being, if you are concerned about kiln emissions you
should worry about more than Mn fume- there are proabbly
other gaseous agents in there.
Respirators should only be worn by healthy indivduals as
they restrict your ablity to breathe. Most will not have
access to "real" fit-testing facilities, however there
should be instructions on the box on how to "field fit test"
a respirator. If you ever smell or taste something or can't
draw air through it, the respirator cartridge is "filled"
up-no "indicator" systems on the market for cartridge life
yet. Store it in a zip lock or draw string bag to keep it
clean- wash the facepiece frequently.
We all have an acceptable limit for risk. In most cases
OSHA is not breathing down our necks, so the choice of what
gear to use or not, is up to our own individual tolerance of
risk.
Which brings me to the "lecture"...
Personal protective equipment (PPE) is the least desirable
form of hazard control- it can fail, requires proper
selection, fitting and use, must be cleaned or changed, etc.
If it fails, you're exposed. It is considered appropriate
as a supplement when other "controls" are either implemented
or simply not feasible. It is specific- i.e., we don't
really know all the components of what is coming out of that
kiln exhaust.
Get educated on what you're using- what are the routes of
exposure to be worried about and what are the signs and
symptoms of exposure. Use this info to assess what you do
in your studio- what are the "high risk" activities? How
can you lessen the risk?
The control of choice is engineering- remove the hazard from
the workplace- that means a kiln vent or good natural
ventilation. If the concern is that there is fume/gas
escaping then one should increase capture velocity- add a
fan to the system. Don't generate dust clouds- wet mop vs.
sweeping.
Use a less hazardous agent (already suggested) or isolate
the operation/worker- kiln in a seperate area, don't sit on
top of the kiln when you don't have to be right there, stay
upwind, etc.
The next approach in the heirarchy is "administrative
controls"- more of a catch all. Limit the duration of
exposure- i.e., don't do long runs of production. Get help
to break up the contact time. Change your procedures to
limit aerosol generation. Practice good housekeeping.
Don't eat or drink in the workplace. Wash your hands. Have
seperate work clothes. If the hazard warrants it, wash
clothes seperate from everyone else's. As I discussed with
Lily, this is the easy and free part!
Keep in mind that the body does have some capacity to
recover from brief exposures, given enough time in a clean
environment, but there are also chronic effects- cancer,
liver and kidney damage, CNS damage... that take years to
manifest themselves. It is prudent to minimize your
exposures to as low as possible.
I hope some of this, while somewhat generic, is food for
thought and not a complete waste of bandwidth. I've kept it
deliberately non-technical. If anyone wants specifics, feel
free to ask. Also, if you want to fund a PhD thesis let me
know ;^)
Good basic info under "Tools and Publications":
http://www.3m.com/market/safety/ohes2/
Jim Stone
TX
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