Scott Harrison on sun 27 oct 02
Vince,
The gearbox is attached to the motor with some kind of shaft and then
runs a gear chain assembly up to the auger. I'm going to take the case to
another welder tomorrow. Thanks for your advice about the brazing.
Scott
> From: vince pitelka
> Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:05:36 -0600
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Gearbox transfer case for Bluebird 750 SV
>
>> Does anyone have a good transfer case for this model? My auger jammed and
>> broke all the mounts off the gearbox case. Local welder doesn't think he
> can
>> weld them back on being it's cast iron. The strainer disk which is bolted
> on
>> with 2 allen bolts to the auger broke off and jammed the blades. Motor
> then
>> torqued itself off the frame. Anybody has any ideas I'd love to hear them.
>
> Scott -
> What you are looking for is not a transfer case. It is just a normal
> industrial-duty gear-reduction box. Is yours integral with the motor - what
> is normally known as a gearmotor? Or is a separate unit, with a flexible
> coupling or a belt drive from the motor to the gearbox, and a chain drive
> from the gearbox to the auger shaft? Or is it mounted directly on the auger
> shaft? Bluebird has used a lot of different systems over the years. The
> best situation is when it is a separate unit driven by a flexible coupling
> or belt, with a chain drive to the auger shaft, because then you can adapt
> any similar-size gearbox.
>
> Your welder apparently does not have the necessary skills, but you are
> probably still best-off getting the mounting flanges welded back on the
> case. If you have not already done so, what you need to do is completely
> strip down the gearbox case - remove all the gears and bearings, clean out
> the case with paint thinner, and then bolt the case back together so it
> doesn't warp when it is welded. Take it to a good old-school welder who
> really knows about welding cast iron. There is a good chance he will decide
> to braze it, because a properly prepared and executed braze joint on cast
> iron is stronger than one done with cast iron arc welding rod, which tends
> to be very brittle. A good old-school welder will know what to do.
>
> Purchased new, industrial-duty gear reduction boxes are EXPENSIVE, so if the
> gearbox is okay inside, it will be worth your while to get the flanges
> properly welded back on.
> Good luck -
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Crafts
> Tennessee Technological University
> 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
> 615/597-5376
> Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
> 615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
> http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
Scott Harrison on sun 27 oct 02
Does anyone have a good transfer case for this model? My auger jammed and
broke all the mounts off the gearbox case. Local welder doesn't think he can
weld them back on being it's cast iron. The strainer disk which is bolted on
with 2 allen bolts to the auger broke off and jammed the blades. Motor then
torqued itself off the frame. Anybody has any ideas I'd love to hear them.
Scott Harrison
South Fork High School
Miranda CA
vince pitelka on sun 27 oct 02
> Does anyone have a good transfer case for this model? My auger jammed and
> broke all the mounts off the gearbox case. Local welder doesn't think he
can
> weld them back on being it's cast iron. The strainer disk which is bolted
on
> with 2 allen bolts to the auger broke off and jammed the blades. Motor
then
> torqued itself off the frame. Anybody has any ideas I'd love to hear them.
Scott -
What you are looking for is not a transfer case. It is just a normal
industrial-duty gear-reduction box. Is yours integral with the motor - what
is normally known as a gearmotor? Or is a separate unit, with a flexible
coupling or a belt drive from the motor to the gearbox, and a chain drive
from the gearbox to the auger shaft? Or is it mounted directly on the auger
shaft? Bluebird has used a lot of different systems over the years. The
best situation is when it is a separate unit driven by a flexible coupling
or belt, with a chain drive to the auger shaft, because then you can adapt
any similar-size gearbox.
Your welder apparently does not have the necessary skills, but you are
probably still best-off getting the mounting flanges welded back on the
case. If you have not already done so, what you need to do is completely
strip down the gearbox case - remove all the gears and bearings, clean out
the case with paint thinner, and then bolt the case back together so it
doesn't warp when it is welded. Take it to a good old-school welder who
really knows about welding cast iron. There is a good chance he will decide
to braze it, because a properly prepared and executed braze joint on cast
iron is stronger than one done with cast iron arc welding rod, which tends
to be very brittle. A good old-school welder will know what to do.
Purchased new, industrial-duty gear reduction boxes are EXPENSIVE, so if the
gearbox is okay inside, it will be worth your while to get the flanges
properly welded back on.
Good luck -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Brian Crocker on mon 28 oct 02
G'Day Scott,
There are many engineers who can weld cast iron either with Arc Welding or
Oxy-Acetylene {Gas} so look around. There are also as many engineers who
don't know how to weld cast iron and say "its impossible".
Ask some of the Arc Welder manufacturers they would surely have some of
their customers that they can recommend.
I always repair instead of buying expensive replacement assemblies.
Kind regards,
CROC from OZ.
===============================
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Harrison"
To:
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 7:56 AM
Subject: Gearbox transfer case for Bluebird 750 SV
> Does anyone have a good transfer case for this model? My auger jammed and
> broke all the mounts off the gearbox case. Local welder doesn't think he
can
> weld them back on being it's cast iron. The strainer disk which is bolted
on
> with 2 allen bolts to the auger broke off and jammed the blades. Motor
then
> torqued itself off the frame. Anybody has any ideas I'd love to hear them.
> Scott Harrison
> South Fork High School
> Miranda CA
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Brian Crocker on mon 28 oct 02
Re stripping and cleaning the gearbox-transfer case, may I suggest that you
don't use thinners or any similar material to clean the inside of the
Gearbx.
Firstly, if it is going to be welded later there is the chance of one hell
of an explosion.
Secondly, it dries out the bearings and could cause problems later due to a
lack of lubricant or a dilution of the lubricant.
I have always used diesoline or Heating Oil and have had no problems, yes it
dilutes the new gear box oil also but has better lubricating properties than
thinners.
I would also suggest Arc welding and preheating, It is more localised than
gas welding .
Either that or completely remove all bearings and seals.
To prevent the same thing happening again I would rearrange the assembly to
use a belt drive or fit a flexible coupling it's better to lose belts and or
a coupling when it all ceases.
It's OK for me to sit here and make suggestions but there are many people in
your part of the world who know how the machine is constructed and can give
expert advise.
Let all know how you Go? There is much to be learnt.
Kind regards,
CROC from OZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "vince pitelka"
To:
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: Gearbox transfer case for Bluebird 750 SV
> > Does anyone have a good transfer case for this model? My auger jammed
and
> > broke all the mounts off the gearbox case. Local welder doesn't think he
> can
> > weld them back on being it's cast iron. The strainer disk which is
bolted
> on
> > with 2 allen bolts to the auger broke off and jammed the blades. Motor
> then
> > torqued itself off the frame. Anybody has any ideas I'd love to hear
them.
>
> Scott -
> What you are looking for is not a transfer case. It is just a normal
> industrial-duty gear-reduction box. Is yours integral with the motor -
what
> is normally known as a gearmotor? Or is a separate unit, with a flexible
> coupling or a belt drive from the motor to the gearbox, and a chain drive
> from the gearbox to the auger shaft? Or is it mounted directly on the
auger
> shaft? Bluebird has used a lot of different systems over the years. The
> best situation is when it is a separate unit driven by a flexible coupling
> or belt, with a chain drive to the auger shaft, because then you can adapt
> any similar-size gearbox.
>
> Your welder apparently does not have the necessary skills, but you are
> probably still best-off getting the mounting flanges welded back on the
> case. If you have not already done so, what you need to do is completely
> strip down the gearbox case - remove all the gears and bearings, clean out
> the case with paint thinner, and then bolt the case back together so it
> doesn't warp when it is welded. Take it to a good old-school welder who
> really knows about welding cast iron. There is a good chance he will
decide
> to braze it, because a properly prepared and executed braze joint on cast
> iron is stronger than one done with cast iron arc welding rod, which tends
> to be very brittle. A good old-school welder will know what to do.
>
> Purchased new, industrial-duty gear reduction boxes are EXPENSIVE, so if
the
> gearbox is okay inside, it will be worth your while to get the flanges
> properly welded back on.
> Good luck -
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Crafts
> Tennessee Technological University
> 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
> 615/597-5376
> Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
> 615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
> http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Michael Wendt on tue 29 oct 02
One more idea:
If the space allows, build a heavy bolt together square steel box that fits
the case of the gear box and bolt it to the mount spot to eliminate the need
to repair the mount tabs on the gearbox. My pug mill lost its gearbox after
25 years of hard use and the old box style was no longer made so I had to
adapt a new style by just this means.
Regards,
Michael Wendt wendtpot@lewiston.com
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Avenue
Lewiston, Idaho 83501
1-208-746-3724
wendtpottery.com
vince pitelka on tue 29 oct 02
> Re stripping and cleaning the gearbox-transfer case, may I suggest that
you
> don't use thinners or any similar material to clean the inside of the
> Gearbx.
> Firstly, if it is going to be welded later there is the chance of one hell
> of an explosion.
> Secondly, it dries out the bearings and could cause problems later due to
a
> lack of lubricant or a dilution of the lubricant.
Croc -
I'm sorry, but this is not good advice. First, ordinary paint thinner or
mechanic's solvent is not particularly volatile, and there is no possibility
of an explosion. Second, you WANT to clean out the bearings with solvent
when you remove them from the case. They need to be removed entirely,
including the bearing races, because the case will have to be heated
considerably before the cast iron can be wleded and brazed. But that is
beside the point, because in any gearbox such as this, the bearings and
gears run in a oil bath, so washing them in solvent would not cause any
problem at all.
Arc welding on cast iron, even with specialized alloy rods, is notoriously
problematic without a very high level of skill with the particular welding
rod. On the other hand, anyone who knows how to braze properly with a gas
torch can do an extremely strong repair on properly prepared cast iron - as
strong as any kind of arc-welded cast iron repair.
The primary reason many people use cast iron alloy rod to repair cast iron,
using gas or arc, is to get a welded joint that looks relatively similar to
the cast iron. In this situation, that obviously is not an issue.
And last, with the amount of torque transmitted from the gearbox to the
auger shaft on a pugmill, a belt drive or flexible coupling will not work.
A pugmill requires a direct rigid connection or a chain drive from gearbox
output to the auger shaft. When the machine is built properly, the blades
will fail before anything else, and obviously that is a relatively simple
repair. The machine in question is an early Bluebird, and apparently the
gearbox mount was the weak spot. That shows pretty poor design.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Brian Crocker on wed 30 oct 02
Dear Vince,
One can learn a little every day even after being in engineering for 50
years, learning by mistakes, gaining the award and teaching the subject .
Kind regards,
CROC.
----- Original Message -----
From: "vince pitelka"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: Gearbox transfer case for Bluebird 750 SV
> > Re stripping and cleaning the gearbox-transfer case, may I suggest that
> you
> > don't use thinners or any similar material to clean the inside of the
> > Gearbx.
> > Firstly, if it is going to be welded later there is the chance of one
hell
> > of an explosion.
> > Secondly, it dries out the bearings and could cause problems later due
to
> a
> > lack of lubricant or a dilution of the lubricant.
>
> Croc -
> I'm sorry, but this is not good advice. First, ordinary paint thinner or
> mechanic's solvent is not particularly volatile, and there is no
possibility
> of an explosion. Second, you WANT to clean out the bearings with solvent
> when you remove them from the case. They need to be removed entirely,
> including the bearing races, because the case will have to be heated
> considerably before the cast iron can be wleded and brazed. But that is
> beside the point, because in any gearbox such as this, the bearings and
> gears run in a oil bath, so washing them in solvent would not cause any
> problem at all.
>
> Arc welding on cast iron, even with specialized alloy rods, is notoriously
> problematic without a very high level of skill with the particular welding
> rod. On the other hand, anyone who knows how to braze properly with a gas
> torch can do an extremely strong repair on properly prepared cast iron -
as
> strong as any kind of arc-welded cast iron repair.
>
> The primary reason many people use cast iron alloy rod to repair cast
iron,
> using gas or arc, is to get a welded joint that looks relatively similar
to
> the cast iron. In this situation, that obviously is not an issue.
>
> And last, with the amount of torque transmitted from the gearbox to the
> auger shaft on a pugmill, a belt drive or flexible coupling will not work.
> A pugmill requires a direct rigid connection or a chain drive from gearbox
> output to the auger shaft. When the machine is built properly, the blades
> will fail before anything else, and obviously that is a relatively simple
> repair. The machine in question is an early Bluebird, and apparently the
> gearbox mount was the weak spot. That shows pretty poor design.
> Best wishes -
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Crafts
> Tennessee Technological University
> 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
> 615/597-5376
> Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
> 615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
> http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
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