artimater on fri 15 nov 02
Snail wrote:
In a just and righteous universe, all these things
would matter in pricing. But they don't. Period.
If you make something out of expensive materials
and spend 100 hours on it, it won't raise the
price of the object UNLESS THE END RESULT IS WORTH
IT! Only the market can determine a price.
Reply:
Sweet Snail,
I hope you don't mind if I pick at your take on this subject...It =
is a huge question and I don't think you have tackled it before for =
us...Every piece done by every artist should have it's own =
consideration...If a piece takes 100 hours to complete the artist should =
demand more than he/she would for one that takes less time...and what if =
he put gold studs all over it, so the cost of materials should be =
considered too...I guess the key to your statement is "UNLESS THE END =
RESULT IS WORTH IT!"...Unfortunately that brings us right back to a =
value judgment again...Letting the market determine your price is a =
direct route to bankruptcy...If a piece takes 100 hours the artist has =
limited the number of buyers...but that doesn't mean it can be sold for =
the same price as one that took an hour...Bankruptcy again...If it takes =
a hundred hours to make a mug...I would shy away from mugs
And Snail said:
I am not a good thrower, and do it only occasionally.
It would probably take me 10 times longer to produce
one coffee mug than it does for David or Tommy to make
one. And my materials were probably more expensive,
too, since I buy in smaller quantities. I can price
my mug at 10 times what Tommy does, but I probably
won't be able to sell it for that. Neither effort
expended nor cost incurred can be translated into a
viable selling price.
Reply:
Here we are talking mugs....It is going to take more to make a good =
handmade mug than Walmart's suppliers will expend...Bankruptcy again if =
you take em on pricewise...Your only hope is added value...If Joe makes =
mugs faster and cheaper than 90% of makers then Joe would be a fool to =
price them cheaper than 90% of mugs...leaving money on the table....If =
you follow that logic Joe ends up making millions of mugs and giving =
them away...As skill rises; profit should rise
And she wrote:
You can put any price on your work that you wish, but
unless people are willing to pay that price for it,
it's not a real price, it's a daydream. Sometimes
I'll drop in on an amateur show, and see some piece
priced at $10,000; about $9,500 more than the next
most expensive comparable piece. The artist will say,
"Well, I put a zillion hours into getting that bit
there just right, and hey, maybe someone will buy it
for that". Well, they won't. And it labels that artist
as strictly 'not ready for prime time'.
Reply:
This is related to "UNLESS THE PIECE IS WORTH IT", and the key phrase is =
"comparable piece"...If all the pieces have an ounce of gold inlayed and =
the others are selling at 5% the gold rate then they are the fools and =
the artist is at the wrong venue...You are right though; if the products =
are essentially the same and the prices vary like that someone is =
messing up
Snail approaches the crux of the biscuit:
So, do none of those factors matter for anything? Of
course they do! But not in pricing. Where they matter
is when you are deciding if you can afford to make
such work at all. If the time and money required to
produce a piece would make any reasonable selling
price into slave wages for you, then you have a few
choices: (A) You can continue to make the work,
selling it for a market price and earning a pittance.
(B) You can make the work and keep it, saying that
your payment is in the joy of making it - and then go
to your day job to pay the rent. (C) You can change
the way you work, or your materials, to bring the
cost of production closer in line with the selling
price. (D) You can change the work (or your market),
bringing the potential price closer in line with your
costs.
Reply:
If the widget is a work of art then none of your alternatives =
works:
A) A "reasonable" price would not net you slave wages...No other =
business but art lets the damn customer decide the price...The artist =
should think, "You want it; you pay for it"...Try telling your plumber =
you only want to pay him $5 an hour...The artist also should strive to =
only make things as quality as can be made...What would you say if the =
plumber told you, "I could put a copper pipe here, but I get by cheaper =
if I only push some straws from McDonalds together and some of the water =
might get through, so is that OK?"...You would get a different =
plumber...The only good choice an artist has here is to say "Screw this =
market"
B) So not making art would be the best thing for your art????...The more =
time you spend being an artist the more the work progresses...the less; =
the less...So do you wanna progress or not?HEHEHE....The only thing that =
matters to an artist is whether the piece is made or not....That is the =
true bottom line...If you make nothing...Nothing exists...This is SOOO =
important...It violates the laws of physics to reap energy without =
investing it..
C) Oh yeah, Work smart, not hard....If there is a way to increase the =
efficiency of production, that is the easy solution as long as the =
product remains the same....If you turn it into something else...all =
bets are off...A widget is not a thingamajig....A widget without a =
whatsis just isn't a widget...If you want to sell apples, don't offer =
oranges unless you can make them function exactly like apples...
D) I think the key here is, "(or your market)"....Changing the work =
means the work does not exist anymore....Unfortunately the better art =
gets, the smaller the number of potential buyers...You have to find a =
way to reach those who can afford it...It is a sad sad fact that maybe =
99% of the public can not afford fine art at all...I had none until I =
started rolling my own...I still couldn't buy much if any, but I have =
traded art for art
And she wrote:
Ceramics is often prone to the reverse of this - we
say, "Hey, it's just dirt and my time; not worth
much". If you are one of the rare souls whose cost
of production (materials AND time) are really low,
that doesn't make your work worth less than that of
someone whose costs are more typical. Your work is
STILL worth what the market will bear. Don't undersell.
It's silly not to represent your work at its actual
worth, even if you've got a great thing going in
terms of production cost.
Reply:
Yep, there are many artists out there who need that affirmation to =
allow themselves to continue...Mr. "I sell everything I make!!" is a =
fool and he is also hurting everyone else involved in the business....I =
just said there are very few people who can afford fine art...That is =
not the problem of the artist
And she said:
The selling price of a piece is what people think
it's worth. We can argue about 'value' all day, but
price is a different thing. Your cost in time and
materials is simply not a factor. Period.
Reply:
Whoa!!...These statements pretty much kill any reason for ever =
making anything artistic...An artist should only concern themselves with =
true value....Would any artist ever admit that he could do something =
alot better but he would rather be lazy and use inferior =
materials?...The nature of the artist mind set is making things as good =
as he can manage...Why would an artist want to make something he knows =
can be made better...From what I have seen of art markets(I've looked) =
it is the rare bird of fine plumage indeed who can survive without such =
compromises....Still I believe that the drive to create is so strong =
that there will always be plenty out there who try, try, try....Diving =
headfirst into the venues I have seen destroys their ability to produce =
anything and then they are gone....or they compromise....Proceeding =
without the integrity to uphold your values as an artist is =
shameing...Not everyone is meant to create great art...As TC said the =
road is a long and hard one and there are very few signposts....If =
trying to convert your work to cash involves so much time and energy =
that you can no longer produce then you have violated the real bottom =
line and shot yourself in the foot...It is a vicious circle...The only =
answer is to not produce and it is hard to see how that is going to =
further your work as an artist...A fine artist is not a machine ....Hit =
the switch and out pops the product....The whole idea is to progress =
with each piece...If what you make now is not as good as what you were =
making why make it?...Too bad for all the compromisers but if you can't =
stand the heat; get out of the kitchen...If you don't believe in the =
value of what you do; get out of the kitchen, or make something you can =
believe in....The really funny part is that in the world we live where =
most people are totally out of touch with fine art, almost anything of =
artistic value could easily be believed in...and a piece made with =
integrity shines, shines, shines...
I have mainly solved this quagmire by working hard at production =
and sitting on the product....There is no denying that each piece made =
has some value....If the price I can get does not have any profit in it =
for me then I don't sell it...I also collect art pottery...How stupid =
would I be if I sold it for less than I paid?...So I sit on it....At the =
same time I wouldn't expect to get art pottery for much less than it's =
value....I have bought Frankoma pieces for $4 that, by the book, were =
worth $400....You can bet we were laughing our asses off after we got =
back to the car....If a piece exists then it has to have some =
value....If it has value then it can be priced...Far too many artists =
have for far too long been willing to price less than value....I think =
the markets are generally suppressed by the nature of the work....There =
are too many "artists" willing to shoot themselves in the foot out there =
and as long as they are there(which they will be) the public is allowed =
to think that artists work for a smile and a positive =
comment...."Doctor, you did a great job delivering that baby...you are =
so smart...you are really helped out us non doctors....I will surely =
call you next time I need a baby delivered...I'm sure you are so =
satisfied by the great job you do that you will not require any =
remuneration..."....Doc will say, "Don't call me next time and you will =
be hearing from my lawyer this time"....There is a perception that the =
artist should say, "Oh thank you thank you thank you...Here's a dollar =
for likeing my work"....Sounds like a good way to no longer be an artist =
to me...
When a person makes that hard decision to dedicate themselves to =
doing art as a professional, that person should take the blinders off =
and realize it is not going to be easy....It is the only profession that =
has no end of study....no piece of paper that truly bestows =
legitimacy....When you make the greatest piece you ever made you have to =
want to make the next one better..and you can expect to do work that =
will not buy gas to power a fire ant's motorcycle around a mushroom for =
a long, long time(fire ant mention gets this post back on =
topicHEHEHE)...If someone asks, "How do I make a living as an =
artist?"...The only thing I know to tell them is to become an art =
teacher and recruit more suckers into the quagmire....It's like a huge =
Ponzi scheme....
There is no shame in being a fine artist and not making money from =
it....The important part is surviving....The vast majority don't....I =
personally have found a situation where I can continue to work and find =
access to the materials I need to do the work I choose....When someone =
wants to buy something from me I put a price on it that I think it is =
worth...and if the buyers can not afford it that is hardly my =
problem....Van Goph's highest price attained while he was alive was I =
think a half a loaf of bread....You might be doing a little of that =
daydreaming if you expect more than that for your own work....He was =
pretty damn good in my opinion...It turns out that lots of people should =
have been willing to give him a little more ....BUT THEY DIDN'T....It =
ain't real pretty for the professional artist, is it?
PAX,
Rush
PS....I would love for others to attempt to tackle this cactus of an =
issue in a real way...=20
"I only indulge when I've seen a snake, so I keep a supply of =
indulgences and snakes handy"
http://artimator.com
rush@artimator.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/texasceramics/
Artimator Galleries
2420 Briarwood Ln.
Carrollton, TX 75006
972-841-1857
Bob Pulley on fri 15 nov 02
This is indeed a tough subject. I thought snail did a pretty good job.
For pots I would suggest just looking around at similar work. People
have an idea of the going rate of a mug.
It does come down to what the market will bear.
I do ceramic sculpture. You can find my work at World Wide Art
Resources or do a Google search for Robert Pulley. One might look at my
work and think "This is what I want to do; $2,500 for one sculpture."
But, alas, I teach for a living. Here is some of the sad truth. :
I live in a rural area and so I rely on galleries for sales. They take
50%.
I figure my overhead, clay, glaze, propane, travel expenses,
photography, etc. is 50% of my sales.
Over the years I sell only a small percent of my production,
(naybe 40%?)
Plus I probably reject nearly 40% before firing.
Plus I figure I spend 80% of my "art time" doing non producing work,
cleanup, mixing clay, travel, photography, phoning, writing, labeling
slides, etc.
20% of my "art time" is making art.
If one divides all this time into what I gross it is laughable, it is
pathetic. But... you know I'm really having a good time. The work is
spiritually and intellectually rewarding. I make a living other ways
and it is certainly more than a hobby. I'm serious about it. Short of
marrying a wealthy woman though (my wife wouldn't like that) I'll not be
able to do it full time until retirement.
Go figure.
Robert Pulley
>>> artimater@ATTBI.COM 11/15/02 12:51PM >>>
Snail wrote:
In a just and righteous universe, all these things
would matter in pricing. But they don't. Period.
If you make something out of expensive materials
and spend 100 hours on it, it won't raise the
price of the object UNLESS THE END RESULT IS WORTH
IT! Only the market can determine a price.
Reply:
Sweet Snail,
I hope you don't mind if I pick at your take on this subject...It
is a huge question and I don't think you have tackled it before for
us...Every piece done by every artist should have it's own
consideration...If a piece takes 100 hours to complete the artist should
demand more than he/she would for one that takes less time...and what if
he put gold studs all over it, so the cost of materials should be
considered too...I guess the key to your statement is "UNLESS THE END
RESULT IS WORTH IT!"...Unfortunately that brings us right back to a
value judgment again...Letting the market determine your price is a
direct route to bankruptcy...If a piece takes 100 hours the artist has
limited the number of buyers...but that doesn't mean it can be sold for
the same price as one that took an hour...Bankruptcy again...If it takes
a hundred hours to make a mug...I would shy away from mugs
And Snail said:
I am not a good thrower, and do it only occasionally.
It would probably take me 10 times longer to produce
one coffee mug than it does for David or Tommy to make
one. And my materials were probably more expensive,
too, since I buy in smaller quantities. I can price
my mug at 10 times what Tommy does, but I probably
won't be able to sell it for that. Neither effort
expended nor cost incurred can be translated into a
viable selling price.
Reply:
Here we are talking mugs....It is going to take more to make a good
handmade mug than Walmart's suppliers will expend...Bankruptcy again if
you take em on pricewise...Your only hope is added value...If Joe makes
mugs faster and cheaper than 90% of makers then Joe would be a fool to
price them cheaper than 90% of mugs...leaving money on the table....If
you follow that logic Joe ends up making millions of mugs and giving
them away...As skill rises; profit should rise
And she wrote:
You can put any price on your work that you wish, but
unless people are willing to pay that price for it,
it's not a real price, it's a daydream. Sometimes
I'll drop in on an amateur show, and see some piece
priced at $10,000; about $9,500 more than the next
most expensive comparable piece. The artist will say,
"Well, I put a zillion hours into getting that bit
there just right, and hey, maybe someone will buy it
for that". Well, they won't. And it labels that artist
as strictly 'not ready for prime time'.
Reply:
This is related to "UNLESS THE PIECE IS WORTH IT", and the key phrase
is "comparable piece"...If all the pieces have an ounce of gold inlayed
and the others are selling at 5% the gold rate then they are the fools
and the artist is at the wrong venue...You are right though; if the
products are essentially the same and the prices vary like that someone
is messing up
Snail approaches the crux of the biscuit:
So, do none of those factors matter for anything? Of
course they do! But not in pricing. Where they matter
is when you are deciding if you can afford to make
such work at all. If the time and money required to
produce a piece would make any reasonable selling
price into slave wages for you, then you have a few
choices: (A) You can continue to make the work,
selling it for a market price and earning a pittance.
(B) You can make the work and keep it, saying that
your payment is in the joy of making it - and then go
to your day job to pay the rent. (C) You can change
the way you work, or your materials, to bring the
cost of production closer in line with the selling
price. (D) You can change the work (or your market),
bringing the potential price closer in line with your
costs.
Reply:
If the widget is a work of art then none of your alternatives
works:
A) A "reasonable" price would not net you slave wages...No other
business but art lets the damn customer decide the price...The artist
should think, "You want it; you pay for it"...Try telling your plumber
you only want to pay him $5 an hour...The artist also should strive to
only make things as quality as can be made...What would you say if the
plumber told you, "I could put a copper pipe here, but I get by cheaper
if I only push some straws from McDonalds together and some of the water
might get through, so is that OK?"...You would get a different
plumber...The only good choice an artist has here is to say "Screw this
market"
B) So not making art would be the best thing for your art????...The
more time you spend being an artist the more the work progresses...the
less; the less...So do you wanna progress or not?HEHEHE....The only
thing that matters to an artist is whether the piece is made or
not....That is the true bottom line...If you make nothing...Nothing
exists...This is SOOO important...It violates the laws of physics to
reap energy without investing it..
C) Oh yeah, Work smart, not hard....If there is a way to increase the
efficiency of production, that is the easy solution as long as the
product remains the same....If you turn it into something else...all
bets are off...A widget is not a thingamajig....A widget without a
whatsis just isn't a widget...If you want to sell apples, don't offer
oranges unless you can make them function exactly like apples...
D) I think the key here is, "(or your market)"....Changing the work
means the work does not exist anymore....Unfortunately the better art
gets, the smaller the number of potential buyers...You have to find a
way to reach those who can afford it...It is a sad sad fact that maybe
99% of the public can not afford fine art at all...I had none until I
started rolling my own...I still couldn't buy much if any, but I have
traded art for art
And she wrote:
Ceramics is often prone to the reverse of this - we
say, "Hey, it's just dirt and my time; not worth
much". If you are one of the rare souls whose cost
of production (materials AND time) are really low,
that doesn't make your work worth less than that of
someone whose costs are more typical. Your work is
STILL worth what the market will bear. Don't undersell.
It's silly not to represent your work at its actual
worth, even if you've got a great thing going in
terms of production cost.
Reply:
Yep, there are many artists out there who need that affirmation to
allow themselves to continue...Mr. "I sell everything I make!!" is a
fool and he is also hurting everyone else involved in the business....I
just said there are very few people who can afford fine art...That is
not the problem of the artist
And she said:
The selling price of a piece is what people think
it's worth. We can argue about 'value' all day, but
price is a different thing. Your cost in time and
materials is simply not a factor. Period.
Reply:
Whoa!!...These statements pretty much kill any reason for ever
making anything artistic...An artist should only concern themselves with
true value....Would any artist ever admit that he could do something
alot better but he would rather be lazy and use inferior
materials?...The nature of the artist mind set is making things as good
as he can manage...Why would an artist want to make something he knows
can be made better...From what I have seen of art markets(I've looked)
it is the rare bird of fine plumage indeed who can survive without such
compromises....Still I believe that the drive to create is so strong
that there will always be plenty out there who try, try, try....Diving
headfirst into the venues I have seen destroys their ability to produce
anything and then they are gone....or they compromise....Proceeding
without the integrity to uphold your values as an artist is
shameing...Not everyone is meant to create great art...As TC said the
road is a long and hard one and there are very few signposts....If
trying to convert your work to cash involves so much time and energy
that you can no longer produce then you have violated the real bottom
line and shot yourself in the foot...It is a vicious circle...The only
answer is to not produce and it is hard to see how that is going to
further your work as an artist...A fine artist is not a machine ....Hit
the switch and out pops the product....The whole idea is to progress
with each piece...If what you make now is not as good as what you were
making why make it?...Too bad for all the compromisers but if you can't
stand the heat; get out of the kitchen...If you don't believe in the
value of what you do; get out of the kitchen, or make something you can
believe in....The really funny part is that in the world we live where
most people are totally out of touch with fine art, almost anything of
artistic value could easily be believed in...and a piece made with
integrity shines, shines, shines...
I have mainly solved this quagmire by working hard at production
and sitting on the product....There is no denying that each piece made
has some value....If the price I can get does not have any profit in it
for me then I don't sell it...I also collect art pottery...How stupid
would I be if I sold it for less than I paid?...So I sit on it....At the
same time I wouldn't expect to get art pottery for much less than it's
value....I have bought Frankoma pieces for $4 that, by the book, were
worth $400....You can bet we were laughing our asses off after we got
back to the car....If a piece exists then it has to have some
value....If it has value then it can be priced...Far too many artists
have for far too long been willing to price less than value....I think
the markets are generally suppressed by the nature of the work....There
are too many "artists" willing to shoot themselves in the foot out there
and as long as they are there(which they will be) the public is allowed
to think that artists work for a smile and a positive
comment...."Doctor, you did a great job delivering that baby...you are
so smart...you are really helped out us non doctors....I will surely
call you next time I need a baby delivered...I'm sure you are so
satisfied by the great job you do that you will not require any
remuneration..."....Doc will say, "Don't call me next time and you will
be hearing from my lawyer this time"....There is a perception that the
artist should say, "Oh thank you thank you thank you...Here's a dollar
for likeing my work"....Sounds like a good way to no longer be an artist
to me...
When a person makes that hard decision to dedicate themselves to
doing art as a professional, that person should take the blinders off
and realize it is not going to be easy....It is the only profession that
has no end of study....no piece of paper that truly bestows
legitimacy....When you make the greatest piece you ever made you have to
want to make the next one better..and you can expect to do work that
will not buy gas to power a fire ant's motorcycle around a mushroom for
a long, long time(fire ant mention gets this post back on
topicHEHEHE)...If someone asks, "How do I make a living as an
artist?"...The only thing I know to tell them is to become an art
teacher and recruit more suckers into the quagmire....It's like a huge
Ponzi scheme....
There is no shame in being a fine artist and not making money from
it....The important part is surviving....The vast majority don't....I
personally have found a situation where I can continue to work and find
access to the materials I need to do the work I choose....When someone
wants to buy something from me I put a price on it that I think it is
worth...and if the buyers can not afford it that is hardly my
problem....Van Goph's highest price attained while he was alive was I
think a half a loaf of bread....You might be doing a little of that
daydreaming if you expect more than that for your own work....He was
pretty damn good in my opinion...It turns out that lots of people should
have been willing to give him a little more ....BUT THEY DIDN'T....It
ain't real pretty for the professional artist, is it?
PAX,
Rush
PS....I would love for others to attempt to tackle this cactus of an
issue in a real way...
"I only indulge when I've seen a snake, so I keep a supply of
indulgences and snakes handy"
http://artimator.com
rush@artimator.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/texasceramics/
Artimator Galleries
2420 Briarwood Ln.
Carrollton, TX 75006
972-841-1857
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KLeSueur@AOL.COM on fri 15 nov 02
When pricing work (at least production work), sometimes it's beneficial to approach it from the opposite end. People often are buying gifts. They already have in their mind how much they are going to spend. Ten dollars for someone who is an aquaintance, Fifty for a good friend. You need to have items at all of the "price points". So, you need a thirty dollar item. What can you make efficiently in that price range. Develop a product line to fit price points.
Secondly, artists always consider that their competition is other artists. More likely it's other buying opportunities. Marshal Fields, Williams-Sonoma, even Target. People know what they can expect to pay for item there and will view your work in that light. They may expect to pay more from an artist but
if your work is comparable to Noritake they won't be willing to pay Tiffany prices just because it's handmade.
Kathi LeSueur
Stephani Stephenson on sat 16 nov 02
I don't' have a 'unified theory' on pricing and the countryside will
hear a loud shout of 'Eureka!' if I ever find one, but I do consider
some of the following:
calculating time and costs:
my mind gets crazy when I try to calculate hours on each and every
piece; there are too many other widgety details and distractions to
focus on during a day , during the hours......so I try to think in
terms of bigger chunks of time.
How much work do I produce over a week, over a month, over 3 months? As
a way to estimate and also review, this is a more realistic scale for
my own thinking.
I know that I must bring in a certain amount of money each month, so
whatever work I do must bring in that amount for the month.If I am
working on larger or more complex projects... whatever projects I work
on over 3 or 6 months must bring in an income which will meet or exceed
those needs for 3 or 6 months .
This helps even with small items. Even though I might not know exactly
how many hours go into one sconce, for example, I know I can produce X
number of sconces in 2 weeks, so this helps me arrive at a basic price,
and also takes into account time I spend doing related tasks such as
packing, invoicing, materials etc. But you do need to find some way of
assessing what it is you need in the way of income for your work, IF
you are deciding to enter the marketplace.
Also, with regard to these cerebral aspects of figuring prices. I have
found an interesting resource is the "Handbook of Pricing and Ethical
Guidelines", put out by the Graphic Artists Guild. I also spend time
designing tile projects as well as working clay, so thought I could pick
up a few pointers from the graphic arts... and some of the information
does apply...especially to those who do commission or extended work...
gut feeling:
I think a lot of pricing is still , inevitably, subjective... you can
run all your numbers, evaluate the market, but you still likely have a
gut feeling . The gut feeling says , "I won't let this piece go for
under $XX". Sometimes this gut feeling has an inflated sense of value,
sometimes deflated, but that feeling , after awhile, can also be your
best barometer, and often lines up pretty close with all the external
calculation..You will first become aware of that gut feeling when you
let someone talk you down to a price that is well below what you know is
a reasonable price..... the gut feeling is a good barometer when your
mind gets overwhelmed with other factors.
Market: It is educational to look around at the market. The other work
in the gallery, if you sell through galleries; the other handmade tile,
if you sell tile, other pottery and potters, and so on.... Sculpture is
completely bizarre when it comes to pricing... you may not be able to
find similar work, and if so, it might be wildly under or overpriced. So
factor in the 'market', but still YOU are the one who decides just HOW
market considerations influence your pricing.
So you have figuring your own needs, market considerations, gut feeling
and STILL you may be left with the X factor :a percentage of
inscrutable , ethereal indeterminants ! 'Reputation','the competition',
perceived value to you, perceived value by the customer, how much you
need money NOW, what is it worth to you NOT to have to pack or ship
everything back, how persuasive and charming is the customer, how tired
are you, how well you trust your gut, how enraged are you at the
vagaries of the marketplace, how happy you are, how confident or
unconfident you are, etc. etc.
Again, you decide what the X factor is and how big a part it plays in
your pricing and selling attitude.
IF you are just starting out:
There is often a time when many of us do not want to enter the
marketplace, but then comes the time when we do want to test ourselves
and venture into it. If you are just starting out, do your best, but
don't be afraid to get work out. You will learn more after a few
stumbles and victories than you will learn by waiting and wondering.
And then you will make new work and know a bit more for the next go
round! You may also decide 'never again', but if you are asking
questions and curious about it, just start somewhere.
Stephani Stephenson
steph@alchemiestudio.com
Snail Scott on sat 16 nov 02
At 11:51 AM 11/15/02 -0600, you wrote:
...No other business but art lets the damn customer decide the price...The
artist should think, "You want it; you pay for it"...Try telling your
plumber you only want to pay him $5 an hour...
EVERY other business lets the customer decide! Customers
are apparently willing to pay plumbers $50/hr. If few
people were willing to pay that rate, it would be lower.
A plumber who charged significantly more than the
going rate would have to provide a service which was
valued more highly by the customer. That's why emergency
service calls at midnight cost more. A day-shift plumber
might charge nighttime emergency rates, but would get
mighty few takers, I suspect. That plumber could say,
"well, the rent on my shop is higher than most, and I
buy my parts from a fancy imported-fittings supplier,
and I had to put a new tranny in the truck", but most
customers would say, "That's your problem. I'll hire
the plumber next door who charges the standard price".
The customer could shop around for a $30/hr plumber,
but they probably wouldn't find one, because plumbers
know that the market price for their work is $50/hr,
because they can get that price. That's what 'market
price' means. A plumber who charged less for work of
the same value would be a fool. (Or a philanthropist.
But probably just a fool.)
...If a piece takes 100 hours the artist has limited the number of
buyers...but that doesn't mean it can be sold for the same price as one
that took an hour...
I'll agree that it SHOULDN'T be sold at the same price.
But CAN it be sold for more? That's the question! It
can, only if there are buyers who value it accordingly.
Additional hours expended (or costs incurred) do NOT
always result in a more desirable piece.
Art tends to be more unique and varied than plumbing,
so direct comparisons between 'products' are more
difficult, for the artist and customer alike. There is
more room for opinion, and a piece that one person
loathes, and another is indifferent to, may be coveted
by a third. And a price that is too high for one buyer
might be fine for another. But you're not likely to
sell your work to the indifferent just by lowering your
price. And the interested buyer has many choices before
them. None exactly like your work, true, but possibly
comparable, and similarly valued by the buyer. Now,
that buyer may say, "I must have that piece, so I will
pay anything the artist wants", but more likely, the
buyer will look at the price and think, "But that is
twice what that other artists sell comparable work for;
I like the piece, but that is not a fair price for it."
Buyers rarely care how long the piece took to make,
or the cost of the process. They base their value on
the result before them. Their interest in the art-making
process may have some effect, but mainly they judge the
result.
Art-buying is seldom subject to the same imperative
as a midnight plumbing disaster, and rather than pay
a disproportionately high price, the buyer may decide
to do without.
-Snail
Bob Pulley on mon 18 nov 02
Maybe somebody has taken this tack. A friend once suggested that you
start with how much money you need, and divide your production into it
to determine the price you need. I never tried that.
Bob
>>> KLeSueur@AOL.COM 11/15/02 09:31PM >>>
When pricing work (at least production work), sometimes it's beneficial
to approach it from the opposite end. People often are buying gifts.
They already have in their mind how much they are going to spend. Ten
dollars for someone who is an aquaintance, Fifty for a good friend. You
need to have items at all of the "price points". So, you need a thirty
dollar item. What can you make efficiently in that price range. Develop
a product line to fit price points.
Secondly, artists always consider that their competition is other
artists. More likely it's other buying opportunities. Marshal Fields,
Williams-Sonoma, even Target. People know what they can expect to pay
for item there and will view your work in that light. They may expect to
pay more from an artist but
if your work is comparable to Noritake they won't be willing to pay
Tiffany prices just because it's handmade.
Kathi LeSueur
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John Rodgers on mon 18 nov 02
Do as Mayor Mel once said.......
Go to one of the larger, finer, department stores, check out their box
prices on goods similar to yours and price accordingly. You may find
that the prices of the better box stuff is such that you could price
your comparable things at half box price and still make money. An added
advantage is that your buyer has the grand opportunity to get a piece of
original work from the "Arteest" him/her/self!! That puts a very
personal touch into the purchase transaction and the piece purchased.
What an experience a buyer has to package into the piece if given as a
gift - a personal story about the purchase and connection with the
artist. That is a powerful purchase enticement/sales tool!
John Rodgers
Bob Pulley wrote:
> Maybe somebody has taken this tack. A friend once suggested that you
> start with how much money you need, and divide your production into it
> to determine the price you need. I never tried that.
> Bob
>
>
>>>>KLeSueur@AOL.COM 11/15/02 09:31PM >>>
>>>
> When pricing work (at least production work), sometimes it's beneficial
> to approach it from the opposite end. People often are buying gifts.
> They already have in their mind how much they are going to spend. Ten
> dollars for someone who is an aquaintance, Fifty for a good friend. You
> need to have items at all of the "price points". So, you need a thirty
> dollar item. What can you make efficiently in that price range. Develop
> a product line to fit price points.
>
> Secondly, artists always consider that their competition is other
> artists. More likely it's other buying opportunities. Marshal Fields,
> Williams-Sonoma, even Target. People know what they can expect to pay
> for item there and will view your work in that light. They may expect to
> pay more from an artist but
> if your work is comparable to Noritake they won't be willing to pay
> Tiffany prices just because it's handmade.
>
> Kathi LeSueur
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
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