Hendrix, Taylor J. on wed 11 dec 02
Gina,
I may have answered too quickly. Perhaps you would like to have the =
chance to broaden your exposure to new kilns, techniques etc. Maybe =
hang with some artistic peeps. By all means, look into school. I have =
lately fantasize about going to get an MFA, but I don't think they'll =
let an English major jump ahead of the line like that, and I'm in no =
mood to BFA my way in. I'm like you--I can figure most of that stuff =
out on my own. Maybe hooking up with a like-minded clay person in your =
area would be just as rewarding for you as going to get a BFA.
Aw, what the heck do I know? Forget I said anything, Gina. I'm =
dancing the bad sashay these days.
Someone expunge my comments from the database, please.
Taylor, wishing for Pond Farm...
-----Original Message-----
From: Gina McKinnis [mailto:gmckinnis@COX.NET]
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 6:27 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Is Art School Necessary?
... Does having a BFA make a difference? ...
vince pitelka on wed 11 dec 02
Gina -
Of course none of us can definitively answer the above question, because the
situation is different for each individual. There are lots of self-taught
potters on this list who do beautiful work and support themselves with their
wares. For others, art school is the best way to go. On Clayart I am one
of the primary boosters for the BFA and academic studio education, so you
have to take this with a grain of salt. I think that higher education and
focused academic study is of immeasurable value. It gives you concentrated
studio time WITH broad access to facilities, equipment, peers, mentors, and
information, all crammed into a few years.
This may seem obvious, but the whole point of organized education is to
supercharge the learning curve. Anyone certainly learns a tremendous amount
by running their own studio, but the realities of supporting ourselves
sometimes precludes the kind of forward momentum we might wish for. In
plugging away day-to-day in the studio, we often lack the concentrated
exposure to an extended range of process, materials, and technique, and the
opportunity for focused exploration of historical and contemporary
precedents.
It is important to be have confidence in the direction you are going with
your work. That confidence serves you in exhibition and marketplace. The
best way to be confident in your work is to do a LOT of work, and to steer
that work based on broad fluency in materials, process, and technique, and
based on the most informed decisions about where your work fits into this
grand old tradition of ceramics and fine art past and present.
Having said all that, it is essential that you approach art school with a
sure sense of purpose, and confidence in that purpose. Once underway, do
not let anyone sway you from your sense of purpose - not fellow students,
not critics, not faculty. Gobble up all the information they give you and
make the most of it, but then process that information and make your own
decisions based on what is best for you. Once you start in a BFA program, do
not let anyone diminish the value and effectiveness of the experience.
I do not know anything about Oklahoma City University, but don't select it
just because it is the most convenient one. Select the school based on what
is best for you. If necessary, wait until after your husband is once again
gainfully employed before you select the school that is best for your needs.
When you research schools, make SURE that the art department and the clay
faculty are supportive of the direction you want to go with your work.
Best wishes and good luck -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Hendrix, Taylor J. on wed 11 dec 02
Gina,
You can't make money going to school. If you are already selling your =
work, getting a BFA/MFA isn't going to improve that. In fact, it will =
take time away from your production. Now, I am a lover of school, would =
stay in school if I could just figure out a way, but the degree won't =
really mean much to your customers. I would concentrate on improving =
your craft. A BFA will only devide your attention and eat up your time. =
If you feel that in the future you might teach art in some h.s. or =
college, the initials might be worth all the time and expense.
Who would have thunk me, the perpetual student, would be advising =
AGAINST school.
Taylor, in Waco
-----Original Message-----
From: Gina McKinnis [mailto:gmckinnis@COX.NET]
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 6:27 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Is Art School Necessary?
Hello,=20
... Does having a BFA make a difference? ...
Gina McKinnis on wed 11 dec 02
Hello,=20
I have been reading ClayArt for a month and it has been wonderful taking =
in all of the wisdom and support! I am facing a life choice and I think =
y'all are the ones to guide me through it.=20
I do a lot of slump/hump mold pieces and tile. I am mostly self taught =
and I have learned most things the hard way. I am fortunate to have a =
knack for marketing myself so I have made a modest side living selling =
my stuff (which, I fully admit, is not that artistically great). My =
first job is taking care of our kids. My husband was laid off from his =
very cushy job last November. He hasn't found a job and is going back to =
school to get his MBA. I have been able to sell enough stuff to keep the =
lights on and I feel that I could turn this into a real career. I never =
went to college and my husband and family think it would be great if I =
would go ahead and get an art degree. I didn't like school and I have =
always been able to figure out how to do anything I wanted to do. But =
reading ClayArt several people have mentioned the importance of art =
school and I am curious about this. Does having a BFA make a difference? =
We live in Oklahoma City and I am looking at Oklahoma City University =
(where my husband attends). Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
I hope you all are having a really fun week!
Gina McKinnis
I will have my site up and running in a couple of days - =
www.beanfolkart.com
email - gmckinnis@cox.net
Chris Clyburn on thu 12 dec 02
Does having a BFA make a difference?
>
>We live in Oklahoma City and I am looking at Oklahoma City University
(where my husband attends). Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
First I would like to say that you are about 30 minutes away from a school
with a superb art program and ceramics progam (though that may change
depending on who they get to replace our current professor of ceramics who
is retiring this spring). I go to USAO in Chickasha. Their BFA program is
extremely good, and the design courses really help you in ceramics. We have
had some people transfer in from Oklahoma City University and they have not
gone through any where near the training we get in one trimester after they
had attended OCU for two years.
A BFA is not really required to do ceramics, and if you are just wanting to
get some more skill development, enter as a non degree seeking student and
just take the classes you would like. That peice of paper does not make you
a better artist, but the training from the program will really help you in
the long run. Try it out, go down to chickasha after Jan and talk to the
art professors there, Kent Lamar (Sculpture), & Jim Dudding (ceramics). It
wouldn't hurt to talk to Hollis Howard either, he is mainly painting, but
he also deals with jewelry. Check it out see what you think.
Chris Clyburn,
Currently in New Jersey visiting in-laws for Winter break and getting ready
for my Sophmore show (even though I am a nearly a Senior, that's what
happens when you get behind) Some vacation :-)
Dannon Rhudy on thu 12 dec 02
Gina said:
.... I am mostly self taught ....have a knack for marketing myself
........have been able to sell enough stuff to keep the lights on
.......didn't like school ......Does having a BFA make a difference?...
That's a pretty broad question, Gina. Of course, EVERYthing makes
a difference. If you have "never liked school", then perhaps
you still won't. If you feel curious, you might decide to take
one ceramics course. Don't commit to a degree. Just take
a class. If it is useful to you, and you like it, take another. It
may be that you learn some things that will help you. It may
be that you won't feel that it is worth the hassle. A BFA is
not magic. But an exploration could be invigorating and useful
to you.
If you have made no committment
then you will find it easy to stop if you don't like it. "School"
situations are not for everyone. Give it a try if it appeals to
YOU. Generally, it doesn't work out well to do something
because "family" thinks it would be "wonderful". Try a
step at a time, see what happens.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
Marcia Selsor on thu 12 dec 02
Gina,
You may enjoy taking workshops here and there rather than complete
immersion into a degree program. Check out the Appalachia Center for
Crafts..a wonderful place with lots of offerings and an isloated
environment for full focu. Your professional experience is very
respectful. Figure out what it is you want to strengthen in your own
background and pursue that.
Most BFA programs are wonderful but very demanding. Will you be able to
afford the time to do all the projects and ignore your family? BFA
programs require much time..sometimes working in the studios into the
wee hours to complete to perfection projects due the next day.
If you want the degree as a personal goal, then go for it. My experience
at a BA progam as a teacher of non-traditional students leads me to
consider that many non-trads work very hard but can not take a full
course load in one semester because of the family demands. Therefore, to
complete a 4-5 year program, it could take 6-8 years to complete for a
non-traditional student with adult responsibilities. If the non-trad
student has full support of the family there are still difficulties to
overcome.Biggest question, will it satisfy whatever it is you have set
for your personal goal?
Marcia Selsor in Montana
Professor emerita, MSU-Billings
Gina said:
> .... I am mostly self taught ....have a knack for marketing myself
> ........have been able to sell enough stuff to keep the lights on
> .......didn't like school ......Does having a BFA make a difference?...
--
Tuscany in 2003
http://home.attbi.com/~m.selsor/Tuscany2003.html
Lois Ruben Aronow on thu 12 dec 02
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:39:56 -0600, you wrote:
>Gina,
>
>You can't make money going to school. If you are already selling your =
work, getting a BFA/MFA isn't going to improve that. In fact, it will =
take time away from your production. Now, I am a lover of school, would =
stay in school if I could just figure out a way, but the degree won't =
really mean much to your customers. I would concentrate on improving =
your craft. A BFA will only devide your attention and eat up your time. =
If you feel that in the future you might teach art in some h.s. or =
college, the initials might be worth all the time and expense.
>
>Who would have thunk me, the perpetual student, would be advising =
AGAINST school.
>
While you can't make money going to school, you can get the
experience, both technical and artistic, you would gain in a safe
environment. I wish I had the luxury of 4 years of "playing around",
learning about my own work, under the guidance of teachers and fellow
students. Instead, one does it basically on their own without school,
multiplied by the burden of having to make a living (or whatever your
situation is). =20
School teaches you how to see, how to work, how to meet deadlines, how
to do the "how to's". =20
--------------------------------------------
Lois Ruben Aronow
gilois@bellatlantic.net
=46ine Craft Porcelain
http://www.loisaronow.com=20
Bob Pulley on thu 12 dec 02
Gina,
I liked school and value my education, however one of my freinds is, I
think, one of the best potters in Indiana and a financial success and he
didn't attend college at all. He has gone to workshops and weekend
classes occassionally when he thinks he can pick up stuff and of course
he reads and has lots of ceramist friends. A creative guy. He probably
lacks some background in art history and formal aesthetics, but he does
very nice functional stoneware. A college education will push you
intellectually, but it is not essential to become a potter. I have a
tribal pot from Nigeria that is the most beautiful form I own and I
doubt the maker even went to high school.
Bob
vince pitelka on thu 12 dec 02
Taylor wrote:
"You can't make money going to school. If you are already selling your
work, getting a BFA/MFA isn't going to improve that. In fact, it will take
time away from your production. Now, I am a lover of school, would stay in
school if I could just figure out a way, but the degree won't really mean
much to your customers. I would concentrate on improving your craft. A BFA
will only devide your attention and eat up your time. If you feel that in
the future you might teach art in some h.s. or college, the initials might
be worth all the time and expense."
Forgive me for being so persistent on this (hey, that's what I do), but the
above is misleading. Certainly it is hard for a producing artist to take
the time away from the studio to pursue university coursework, but if an
artist is dissatisfied with their work and their possibilities, it is
absolutely critical to do something drastically different ASAP, and
furthering your education is one of tthe best things to do in that
situation.
Whether you finance education with student loans, or whether you have some
other way to manage it, you will never regret it. University education is
more about life enrichment than it is about career training. When you
enrich your life and broaden your horizons (by university education or by
any other means), you make more confident, informed decisions about your
direction and your future.
The BFA is a nice hoop to jump through. You never know when the degree will
come in handy. If you decide to teach classes out of your studio, it will
give you a little more credibility. If you decide at some point to pursue
graduate study, then it will greatly improve your chances of getting into
the program of your choice. Some galleries want to see a resume, and having
the BFA degree will be a nice compliment to the quality of your work.
I agree with Taylor when he says "I would concentrate on improving your
craft." The right BFA program is one of the best ways to do that.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Fabienne Micheline Cassman on thu 12 dec 02
Gina,
I find education a good mind teaser and knowing what has passed helps me in
not making the same mistakes -- monkeys learn after three ;) -- and avoids
that I have to reinvent the wheel. One can learn most of what there is to
learn through books; however, nothing replace interacting with others who
have the same background or are learning the same things. Ideas which
would have otherwise been dormant are awaken in such environment. I do not
believe one needs seek a degree to do that. I have taken classes and
associated with groups that gives me the opportunity to discuss what I
learned or ideas.
I believe that you have to have to feel it in your "guts" that you are
being called to go back to school; it takes a lot of time, money and energy
to complete a degree. It should make a difference for you as a person.
My 2 cents,
Fabienne
At 06:26 PM 12/11/2002 -0600, you wrote:
always been able to figure out how to do anything I wanted to do. But =
reading ClayArt several people have mentioned the importance of art =
school and I am curious about this. Does having a BFA make a difference? =
Fabienne Cassman http://www.milkywayceramics.com/
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above
because my cats have apparently learned to type.
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Orchard Valley Ceramics Arts Guild on thu 12 dec 02
Gina,
The benefits of art school are a topic of frequent debate on ClayArt.
Maybe we can just
say that there are many paths to success; some involve an art degree
and some don't.
In your situation, it sounds like you need to develop your skill and
build your business
quickly. Why not find a local community college where you can take
some direct,
skill-related classes that will help you immediately? Then, if you
choose to pursue
a degree, you can probably transfer the class credits.
Just a thought...
- Bob Nicholson
>I do a lot of slump/hump mold pieces and tile. I am mostly self
>taught and I have learned most things the hard way. I am fortunate
>to have a knack for marketing myself so I have made a modest side
>living selling my stuff (which, I fully admit, is not that
>artistically great). My first job is taking care of our kids. My
>husband was laid off from his very cushy job last November. He
>hasn't found a job and is going back to school to get his MBA. I
>have been able to sell enough stuff to keep the lights on and I feel
>that I could turn this into a real career. I never went to college
>and my husband and family think it would be great if I would go
>ahead and get an art degree. I didn't like school and I have always
>been able to figure out how to do anything I wanted to do. But
>reading ClayArt several people have mentioned the importance of art
>school and I am curious about this. Does having a BFA make a
>difference?
James Bledsoe on thu 12 dec 02
Dear Gina
I have Art degrees and the school thing in my estimation should be embraced
wholeheartedly. But not for a degree in art. Go to school and study
anything but art. I say this because in art school they will tell you all
about art and artist. When you look at the backgrounds of many practicing
successful artists we find they studied law accounting history have science
backgrounds Paul Gauguin accounting Henri Matisse law ECT... in art school
you are exposed tools and technics but as Robert Irwin lamented "no hard
questions where asked" (seeing is forgetting the name of what one sees) by
Lawrence Weschler 1982 university of California press. read that art school
will be finished then go find things to make art about.
good luck
jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gina McKinnis"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 4:26 PM
Subject: Is Art School Necessary?
Hello,
I have been reading ClayArt for a month and it has been wonderful taking in
all of the wisdom and support! I am facing a life choice and I think y'all
are the ones to guide me through it.
I do a lot of slump/hump mold pieces and tile. I am mostly self taught and I
have learned most things the hard way. I am fortunate to have a knack for
marketing myself so I have made a modest side living selling my stuff
(which, I fully admit, is not that artistically great). My first job is
taking care of our kids. My husband was laid off from his very cushy job
last November. He hasn't found a job and is going back to school to get his
MBA. I have been able to sell enough stuff to keep the lights on and I feel
that I could turn this into a real career. I never went to college and my
husband and family think it would be great if I would go ahead and get an
art degree. I didn't like school and I have always been able to figure out
how to do anything I wanted to do. But reading ClayArt several people have
mentioned the importance of art school and I am curious about this. Does
having a BFA make a difference?
We live in Oklahoma City and I am looking at Oklahoma City University (where
my husband attends). Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
I hope you all are having a really fun week!
Gina McKinnis
I will have my site up and running in a couple of days - www.beanfolkart.com
email - gmckinnis@cox.net
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Snail Scott on fri 13 dec 02
At 10:26 PM 12/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
>I have lately fantasize about going to get an MFA, but I don't think
they'll let an English major jump ahead of the line like that, and I'm in
no mood to BFA my way in.
Wrong-O! I got accepted to some very competetive MFA
programs without a BFA. Many, if not most, MFA programs
will accept what they consider 'equivalent', with varied
levels of strictness. Generally, any bachelor's degree
will be accepted, but it needs to be accompanied by
enough formal coursework in studio art and art history
that you won't be at a disadvantage compared with the
other students they accept. Some programs will allow
some number of course 'deficiencies' to be made up after
acceptance, others won't.
The single biggest factor for most MFA programs is your
portfolio. All the other stuff is secondary. It won't be
ignored entirely, though, so you will need something to
point to and say, "I've got that covered." I would start
by making inquiries of the schools you are interested in
(or if you aren't that focused yet, just pick a few at
random). Send away for their grad-school packet for art,
and ask what their equivalency requirements are for
non-art graduates. They've got a list, usually printed
in a nice brochure, but ask to talk to some humans on
the phone, too.
If you are still shy a few requirements that won't be
waived by any school, like some art history courses or
even studio courses, consider taking them before applying.
You don't have to be a full-time student, or even a
declared art major, to take art courses at most colleges.
You don't have to get the BFA, just get the courses you
need. It's not just 'filling in the blanks', either, in
my opinion. If you haven't taken college-level courses
in art or art history, you'll have a rough time jumping
right in at the grad level. Getting a feel for the
academic approach to art _before_ grad school will ease
the transition once you're there. (Or, you may decide
it's not for you. Better to find out now.) And you will
probably learn something while you're at it.
-Snail
Snail Scott on fri 13 dec 02
At 09:42 AM 12/12/02 -0500, Lili wrote:
>While you can't make money going to school, you can get the
>experience, both technical and artistic, you would gain in a safe
>environment. I wish I had the luxury of 4 years of "playing around",
>learning about my own work, under the guidance of teachers and fellow
>students.
Unfortunately, not only do you not make money going
to school, but you've got to make money in order
to go, over and above your basic living expenses!
Far from being a 'refuge', it can be a high-pressure
situation, if you have to keep up production to pay
both rent and tuition and still fulfill the course
requirements. (Some of your production may count as
coursework, and vice-versa, but definitely not all,
or even most of it!) And if you give up production
while you're in school, what job will you take instead
that leaves your time free for college? There are
scholarships, but even if tuition is free, school
takes time, and so does making a living. Can you do
both at once?
-Snail
Brian Molanphy on fri 13 dec 02
vince wrote, in part:
'When you research schools, make SURE that the art department and the =
clay
faculty are supportive of the direction you want to go with your work.'
so vince, and others who have some opinion on this, please tell us how =
one
goes about this task effectively and diplomatically. when i look for an
mfa program, i consider several things, like facilities, financial aid, =
us
news and world report ranking, etc. more important than these, i think, =
is
to look at what the faculty and students produce, which is fairly easy,
with pictures on the internet.=20
more difficult, but even more important, is to suss out the reputations =
of
the faculty in general, as teachers, not as artists, and, specifically,
whether they and the environment that they create will be conducive to
one's own educational needs. there will always be plenty of risk =
involved;
it won't be posssible to know in advance what education one will get. =
risk
and experimentation are important to learning anyway. some people are
widely respected both as artists and teachers. pete pinnell at nebraska =
is
widely respected on this list, for example. there is a faculty member =
(who
will remain nameless here) at a different school whose work i don't care
for, but who has an excellent rep as a teacher, and a generation of
students' work shows that the rep is well-deserved. so i will apply to
that school. but not everyone is so well-known... how can one learn =
about
them, discreetly, and accurately, without relying too much on rumor?
further, say i apply to a school and i get a phone call for an =
interview.
i will answer the questions as best i can, but what will i ask of the
interviewers? i'm not sure even what kinds of questions to ask, nor how =
to
phrase them. i think my questions will be almost as important as their
questions, because some interviewers will make choices based more on the
questions that are asked of them, rather than based on the questions =
they
themselves ask.=20
as deadlines approach, i hope you all have some suggestions.
brian
Bobbruch1@AOL.COM on tue 17 dec 02
I was also self taught and went to art school after 15 years of working in
clay as a hobbyist. The primary reason that I went to art school was that I
felt I wanted to learn some technical information that I wasn't absorbing on
my own. If you are the type of person who could accomplish that with
workshops and reading, then that reason might not necessitate a ceramics
program. Also, you should check on the programs you are considering, since
some schools stress aesthetics and others focus as much or more on the "how
to do it" approach. Make sure the program fits your needs in that area.
While I did gain a considerable amount of technical information, that really
wasn't the major benefit that I think one can get from an undergraduate
education. Interaction with faculty and students via the critiquing process
forced me to look at work in many new ways. I don't think that there are too
many people who wouldn't benefit from learning how to apply honest self
criticism to their work.
Also, you may not want or need to get a BFA. Many programs will allow you to
take classes on a part time basis. You could get a few credits, add that to
your resume, and see if you feel like continuing on for the BFA. Once you are
there, you can decide if the degree is worth cost in time and financial
outlay.
Bob Bruch
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