Philip Poburka on thu 26 dec 02
the consequences OF the 'consequences' it seems...?
While I do not know this Artist, and I do not know anything
about them, the only thing I have to work with, as is not
knowledge, but heresay, is, that: He had painted the word
'fear' on some black cardboard boxes and set them on the
ground in a public place.
Where is the 'arrogance' here?
'Youthful' or otherwise?
We were told the 'authorities' arrested him, and as well,
'closed' the public place for sometime.
Could that be the 'arrogance' some have afterward attributed
to the Artist?
I am getting confused here!
I am to understand in THIS situation, that the Artists is
responsible for the reactions of the 'authorities'?
No matter what those 'reactions' are or were?
Is that it?
Help me out here please?
Thanks,
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gail Dapogny"
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: Black boxes, and consequences
Lili wrote:
>
>I am glad Mark wrote in about the actual consequences of
that person with
>the black boxes in Grand Central Station. Because I noted
that my comment
>about youthful arrogance and who do "artists" think they
are, fell on deaf
>ears--or at least did not resonate.
>
>That, as reported, the person got an A for h/er/is efforts
only adds
>disgust.
Just wanted to say, Lili, that I nodded respectfully and
murmured agreement
when I read your previous post , the youthful arrogance one.
I guess that
couldn't quite be termed responsive or "resonating",
however! Well, the
sentiment was there anyway.
---Gail
Gail Dapogny
1154 Olden Road
Ann Arbor, MI 48103-3005
(734) 665-9816
gdapogny@umich.edu
http://www.silverhawk.com/ex99/dapogny (single historical
photo - no longer
registered with Silverhawk)
____________________________________________________________
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Earl Brunner on fri 27 dec 02
the consequences OF the 'consequences' it seems...?
Come on Phil, like it or not, the current climate in the world does call
for a certain amount of brains and common sense in what we do. If not
arrogance, than stupidity. Say the word bomb in an airport or on a
plane. In my view, the same thing.
The underlying principle of terrorism is "fear". The idiot could be
defined as a terrorist even if he caused no physical damage. Terrorist,
create and prey on fear.
Earl Brunner
Philip Poburka wrote:
> While I do not know this Artist, and I do not know anything
> about them, the only thing I have to work with, as is not
> knowledge, but heresay, is, that: He had painted the word
> 'fear' on some black cardboard boxes and set them on the
> ground in a public place.
>
> Where is the 'arrogance' here?
>
> 'Youthful' or otherwise?
>
>
>
> We were told the 'authorities' arrested him, and as well,
> 'closed' the public place for sometime.
>
>
Catherine White on fri 27 dec 02
the consequences OF the 'consequences' it seems...?
How can some cardboard boxes painted black and labeled fear arouse panic in
the average human? If that is the case, then the terrorists accomplished
far more than they could ever have hoped for. How many real - not warnings
or alerts, but real - incidents have there been since 9-11? Turn off CNN
and Fox networks for a couple weeks and see how differently you perceive the
world.
The kid painted some boxes, hauled them to Grand Central Station (?),
stacked them against a wall. What's amazing is that they weren't stolen
promptly. I lived much of my life in the city and wouldn't hesitate to move
back were my life circumstances such that I could.
Catherine in Yuma, AZ
Two ancient electric kilns. Both outside.
It never rains here at the Mexican border.
One partner, one kid, one dog, two cats. All inside.
----- Original Message -----
He had painted the word 'fear' on some black cardboard boxes and set them on
the ground in a public place.
Craig Clark on sat 28 dec 02
the consequences OF the 'consequences' it seems...?
Earl, what type of Orwellian nightmare are you willing to tolerate? Just
how far should the authoritites be permitted to go in there pursuit of that
which they define as being a source of or inciting "terror?"What, if any,
specific types of criteria ought or ought not be used in this totalitarian
state of affairs ?
Art is about IDEAS and the expression of those ideas. Whether it is
accomplished well is a matter of debate. In this instance I find the piece
to be sophomoric at best. Though it has certainly juiced up conversation. If
you really want to be frightened take some time and read the Patriot Act.
Scary stuff!
Curious
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
----- Original Message -----
From: Earl Brunner
To:
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: Black boxes, and consequences, or moreso, the consequences OF
the 'consequences' it seems...?
> Come on Phil, like it or not, the current climate in the world does call
> for a certain amount of brains and common sense in what we do. If not
> arrogance, than stupidity. Say the word bomb in an airport or on a
> plane. In my view, the same thing.
>
> The underlying principle of terrorism is "fear". The idiot could be
> defined as a terrorist even if he caused no physical damage. Terrorist,
> create and prey on fear.
>
> Earl Brunner
>
> Philip Poburka wrote:
> > While I do not know this Artist, and I do not know anything
> > about them, the only thing I have to work with, as is not
> > knowledge, but heresay, is, that: He had painted the word
> > 'fear' on some black cardboard boxes and set them on the
> > ground in a public place.
> >
> > Where is the 'arrogance' here?
> >
> > 'Youthful' or otherwise?
> >
> >
> >
> > We were told the 'authorities' arrested him, and as well,
> > 'closed' the public place for sometime.
> >
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Craig Clark on sun 29 dec 02
the consequences OF the 'consequences' it seems...?
Earl, you got me laughing a little and I needed to do that to lighten up
on this one. THe "naw, I'm as interested in preserving our freedoms as the
next guy.." helped a bunch.
I think the nexus of the issue is in your question regarding how it is
that we are to go about fighting terrorists and terror. If we are unable to
see them and hit them back then the fear factor escalates exponentially.
Another factor that could be read into the piece.
I suggest that we, as a people, look at what it is that we value the
most, our freedoms perhaps, and honestly offer it to everyone else. No more
propping up puppet dictators. No more selling of weapons to unstable
countries. No more going into developing regions and relieving them of their
most vital resources to the enrichment of a few. No more hippocracy about
how we are the shinning beacon of good will and trust on the block when a
sizable portion of the global community knows that is a load of hooey.
Basically offering everyone in the global community the same as we
expect for ourselves. Dignity and respect. I do not believe that we can
impose our imperial will on the global commuinity. I do not believe that we
should.
When governments that we support repress, torture, rape and murder their
own population the ranks of the terrorist cells grow.
The Saudi Government is despotic. They are the antithesis of everything
that we preach about, yet, because of our thirst for oil, we continue to
support the royal family. The population knows the source of the oppresors
power. They know where the weapons come from. They look at the continiiung
struggles between the Israelis and the Palestinians and see the thumb print
of the US. Once again the seeds for the future bombers are sown. Radical
religous fundamentalism becomes a viable option. Maybe this is the FEAR that
the mad boxer is talking about.
As to the balancing of the rights and security, I fall onto the side of
rights. Isreal is one of the most security consious countries in the world.
They probably have the most efficient army in the history of the world.
Their intelligence forces have been second to none, yet there are still
young men blowing themselves to bits in the markets and on buses. It does
not seem to work real well.
The question that I have, and am unable to answer, is how far must we go
with security before fear is sated? That is what scares me.
In the recent case of security concerning the mad boxer, there was none.
The kid was able to put up the all the boxes, paint fear on all of them and
walk back to class. This was all done in broad daylight. Un f ing
Believable!! Sounds like a bunch of security folks trying to cover their
collective butts after the fact. If he had been a terrorist, domestic or
foriegn bread, then he would have accomplished his task. Once again I think
the piece makes a salient point.
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
mudman@hal-pc.org
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
mudman@hal-pc.org
----- Original Message -----
From: Earl Brunner
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: Black boxes, and consequences, or moreso, the consequences OF
the 'consequences' it seems...?
> Naw, I'm as interested in preserving our freedoms as the next guy, but
> as you wrote in one of your other posts, and I hope I got it right, we
> are not at war with a specific country. How do you fight terrorist and
> terror?
>
> Hind sight is wonderful, it was just an artist making a statement,
> nothing serious. But what about next week? Every unidentified package
> is suspect. We don't have the luxury of treating anything like this
> cavalierly, and we haven't had that luxury since 9-11. Terrorist did
> this to us. We aren't going to make it go away by ignoring it or
> brushing it off. Terrorist acts will probably happen again in this
> country, we are to big, to open, and to free, we are vulnerable.
>
> We have to balance NOT being sitting ducks, with NOT infringing too much
> on personal freedom. That is what we as a country are struggling with
> right now. Britain has had to deal with the Irish situation (which has
> involved terror) and Israel deals with it on a daily basis. Well, we
> have it now. We have Clayart members in Israel, Ireland, and England
> (and probably other countries as well). I'm sure they have some
> perspective on this and some have given there opinions.
>
> Do I think this artist should be strapped to a bomb? Go to jail for 10
> years? No. Do I think the police handled it correctly? As much as I
> know about the situation, yes. Should he have to pay for any damages
> resulting from his acts and their consequences, yes. I believe in
> personal responsibility. Do I think he should have gotten an"A" for his
> project? If it met the criteria, maybe. Might be a rather expensive
> "A" though.
>
> Respectfully
> Earl
>
> Craig Clark wrote:
> > Earl, what type of Orwellian nightmare are you willing to tolerate?
Just
> > how far should the authoritites be permitted to go in there pursuit of
that
> > which they define as being a source of or inciting "terror?"What, if
any,
> > specific types of criteria ought or ought not be used in this
totalitarian
> > state of affairs ?
> > Art is about IDEAS and the expression of those ideas. Whether it is
> > accomplished well is a matter of debate. In this instance I find the
piece
> > to be sophomoric at best. Though it has certainly juiced up
conversation. If
> > you really want to be frightened take some time and read the Patriot
Act.
> > Scary stuff!
> > Curious
> > Craig Dunn Clark
> > 619 East 11 1/2 st
> > Houston, Texas 77008
> > (713)861-2083
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Rikki Gill on sun 29 dec 02
the consequences OF the 'consequences' it seems...?
Thank you, thank you. You are so on the mark. The Patriot Act, now you
are talking real fear. Some on this list are unclear on the concept.
Rikki in Berkeley
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Clark"
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: Black boxes, and consequences, or moreso, the consequences OF
the 'consequences' it seems...?
> Earl, what type of Orwellian nightmare are you willing to tolerate?
Just
> how far should the authoritites be permitted to go in there pursuit of
that
> which they define as being a source of or inciting "terror?"What, if any,
> specific types of criteria ought or ought not be used in this totalitarian
> state of affairs ?
> Art is about IDEAS and the expression of those ideas. Whether it is
> accomplished well is a matter of debate. In this instance I find the piece
> to be sophomoric at best. Though it has certainly juiced up conversation.
If
> you really want to be frightened take some time and read the Patriot Act.
> Scary stuff!
> Curious
> Craig Dunn Clark
> 619 East 11 1/2 st
> Houston, Texas 77008
> (713)861-2083
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Earl Brunner
> To:
> Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 11:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Black boxes, and consequences, or moreso, the consequences OF
> the 'consequences' it seems...?
>
>
> > Come on Phil, like it or not, the current climate in the world does call
> > for a certain amount of brains and common sense in what we do. If not
> > arrogance, than stupidity. Say the word bomb in an airport or on a
> > plane. In my view, the same thing.
> >
> > The underlying principle of terrorism is "fear". The idiot could be
> > defined as a terrorist even if he caused no physical damage. Terrorist,
> > create and prey on fear.
> >
> > Earl Brunner
> >
> > Philip Poburka wrote:
> > > While I do not know this Artist, and I do not know anything
> > > about them, the only thing I have to work with, as is not
> > > knowledge, but heresay, is, that: He had painted the word
> > > 'fear' on some black cardboard boxes and set them on the
> > > ground in a public place.
> > >
> > > Where is the 'arrogance' here?
> > >
> > > 'Youthful' or otherwise?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We were told the 'authorities' arrested him, and as well,
> > > 'closed' the public place for sometime.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Earl Brunner on sun 29 dec 02
the consequences OF the 'consequences' it seems...?
Naw, I'm as interested in preserving our freedoms as the next guy, but
as you wrote in one of your other posts, and I hope I got it right, we
are not at war with a specific country. How do you fight terrorist and
terror?
Hind sight is wonderful, it was just an artist making a statement,
nothing serious. But what about next week? Every unidentified package
is suspect. We don't have the luxury of treating anything like this
cavalierly, and we haven't had that luxury since 9-11. Terrorist did
this to us. We aren't going to make it go away by ignoring it or
brushing it off. Terrorist acts will probably happen again in this
country, we are to big, to open, and to free, we are vulnerable.
We have to balance NOT being sitting ducks, with NOT infringing too much
on personal freedom. That is what we as a country are struggling with
right now. Britain has had to deal with the Irish situation (which has
involved terror) and Israel deals with it on a daily basis. Well, we
have it now. We have Clayart members in Israel, Ireland, and England
(and probably other countries as well). I'm sure they have some
perspective on this and some have given there opinions.
Do I think this artist should be strapped to a bomb? Go to jail for 10
years? No. Do I think the police handled it correctly? As much as I
know about the situation, yes. Should he have to pay for any damages
resulting from his acts and their consequences, yes. I believe in
personal responsibility. Do I think he should have gotten an"A" for his
project? If it met the criteria, maybe. Might be a rather expensive
"A" though.
Respectfully
Earl
Craig Clark wrote:
> Earl, what type of Orwellian nightmare are you willing to tolerate? Just
> how far should the authoritites be permitted to go in there pursuit of that
> which they define as being a source of or inciting "terror?"What, if any,
> specific types of criteria ought or ought not be used in this totalitarian
> state of affairs ?
> Art is about IDEAS and the expression of those ideas. Whether it is
> accomplished well is a matter of debate. In this instance I find the piece
> to be sophomoric at best. Though it has certainly juiced up conversation. If
> you really want to be frightened take some time and read the Patriot Act.
> Scary stuff!
> Curious
> Craig Dunn Clark
> 619 East 11 1/2 st
> Houston, Texas 77008
> (713)861-2083
| |
|
