Elizabeth Herod on thu 26 dec 02
Normally I do not like to stir the pot, but this is something that I feel
very strongly about.
Having commuted into Grand Central for 10 years, I lived through some
terrifying days.
On 9/11, we had no communication with family members for days. We didn=B9t
know if some of our friends were alive. As it is three perished.
Perhaps I am overly sensitive about this issue, but the trauma and fear are
real for many people. The act of installing the boxes was a horribly
insensitive act. It was totally inappropriate for the time and the place.
Beth
Kathi LeSueur on fri 27 dec 02
Seems that some people think if you are an artist you can do anything in
the name of art and not be held for the accountable for the
consequences. I disagree. Would leaving mock pipebombs in a high school
as an art project be acceptable? Wouldn't you expect the student to know
that the school would be evacuated, the police and bomb squad called in,
and the build searched thoroughly? I personally would expect that to be
the response. I would have expected the response the police had to the
black boxes. Yes, the student is responsible.Just because he was too
stupid to not anticipate the response doesn't absolve him of
responsiblity. Artists are not special people anymore than librarians
are special people, or anyone else. If they violate the rules of society
there are consequences. The rules in this society today are that you
don't create the impression that an act of violence is going to happen.
I guarantee that if you joke even a little about a bomb on a plane you
will find yourself in handcuffs being carted of to the nearest police
station. Perhaps this consequence is worth it in the name of art. If so,
then stop whinning when it happens.
Kathi
Carol Ross on fri 27 dec 02
I agree that the artist must be held accountable and suffer the
consequences. Unfortunately in this case of the black boxes (what if they
had been Lucite?) his consequence was a lot of publicity and an A from an
instructor who should have instead had a long discussion with this young man
about permits and laws and ... consequences.
> Seems that some people think if you are an artist you can do anything in
> the name of art and not be held for the accountable for the
> consequences. I disagree. Would leaving mock pipebombs in a high school
> as an art project be acceptable? Wouldn't you expect the student to know
> that the school would be evacuated, the police and bomb squad called in,
> and the build searched thoroughly? I personally would expect that to be
> the response. I would have expected the response the police had to the
> black boxes. Yes, the student is responsible.Just because he was too
> stupid to not anticipate the response doesn't absolve him of
> responsiblity. Artists are not special people anymore than librarians
> are special people, or anyone else. If they violate the rules of society
> there are consequences. The rules in this society today are that you
> don't create the impression that an act of violence is going to happen.
> I guarantee that if you joke even a little about a bomb on a plane you
> will find yourself in handcuffs being carted of to the nearest police
> station. Perhaps this consequence is worth it in the name of art. If so,
> then stop whinning when it happens.
>
> Kathi
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
Millie Carpenter on fri 27 dec 02
My daughter is a student at Maryland Institute College of Art. Last
semester she had several site specific installations as class
assignments. One thing that the Professor stressed was that if the
installation was not on your own private property, you must get
permission from the property owners. this gave them some idea of what
one must do to put something up in what is considered public property.
Yes it can be time consuming. Yes, sometimes you have to fill out a lot
of paperwork. Had the student done the legwork and gotten permission,
the authorities would have known what it was and not reacted in a
logical way for this day and age.
Millie in Md.
millie@riva.net <-----NEW ADDRESS
>
Mildred Herot on fri 27 dec 02
Why spend so much time and effort when the answer is so simple. the =
guy is
a complete IDIOT !!!!!
Mildred Herot, Cheltenham, Pa.
----- Original Message -----
=46rom: "Elizabeth Herod"
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: Black boxes
Normally I do not like to stir the pot, but this is something that I =
feel
very strongly about.
Having commuted into Grand Central for 10 years, I lived through some
terrifying days.
On 9/11, we had no communication with family members for days. We di=
dn=B9t
know if some of our friends were alive. As it is three perished.
Perhaps I am overly sensitive about this issue, but the trauma and fe=
ar are
real for many people. The act of installing the boxes was a horribly
insensitive act. It was totally inappropriate for the time and the p=
lace.
Beth
_____________________________________________________________________=
_______
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com
Carol Ross on sat 28 dec 02
From the NYTimes - I don't subscribe online and can only get the first
couple of paragraphs of the article, but I think it provides some
information we've been guessing at...
Carol
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30E1EFD3E590C7B8DDDAB0994DA4
04482
----begin quoted material-------
The Arts/Cultural Desk | December 18, 2002, Wednesday
Critic's Notebook; In New York, Art Is Crime, And Crime Becomes Art
By MICHAEL KIMMELMAN (NYT) 960 words
Late Edition - Final , Section E , Page 1 , Column 5
At the same time it turned out that those 37 black boxes with the word
''Fear'' on them, which mysteriously turned up attached to girders and walls
in the Union Square subway station last Wednesday, were, as you may have
guessed from the start, an art project. The boxes, which spread panic and
caused the police to shut the station for hours and call in the bomb squad,
turn out to be the work of Clinton Boisvert, a 25-year-old freshman at the
School of Visual Arts in Manhattan, who surrendered Monday to the Manhattan
district attorney's office, which intends to prosecute him on charges of
reckless endangerment.
-------end quoted material---------
Vince Pitelka on sat 28 dec 02
You wrote:
"Was the exhibit socially responsible? The obvious answer is no.
Disrupting others lives without their permission is not considered socially
responsible (or polite.)"
Socially responsible? In the grand scheme of things, of course it was
socially responsible. In that context, you are talking about petty and
inconsequential things. It may have been irresponsible in terms of health
and safety, but it was certainly socially responsible. One of the things
artists do is address and illuminate the problems that exist in the world.
It is the responsibility of EVERY citizen (of any country where they can get
away with it) to speak out forcefully about economic and social injustice.
As history shows us, artists or citizens sometimes have to commit illegal
acts to accomplish that.
In all cases I am opposed to violence, but it is sometimes necessary to
employ means that communicate the concept of violence in order to get
people's attention and get the message across. That has been true
throughout human history. As long as people commit violent acts against
humanity, artists will have to make art about violence.
Peace and love -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Tony Olsen on sat 28 dec 02
Seems to me that there are 2 facets to this discussion that may be =
blending together.
1.) Art
2.) Social responsibility
Was (is) this art and should it have received an 'A' grade. Art is =
meant to provoke thought and interpretation. (Not always what we want =
to think or see in the interpretation.) Has this project provoked =
thought and interpretation? Judging from the number of posts, here, I =
would have to say yes. On that alone the "Art" deserves and 'A' grade. =
Was the exhibit socially responsible? The obvious answer is no. =
Disrupting others lives without their permission is not considered =
socially responsible (or polite.)
So I can admire the concept and abhor the actual presentation.
Just my 2 cents.
Tony (the one from Galveston)
Catherine White on sat 28 dec 02
My interpretation of the black cardboard boxes labeled "FEAR" is that they
represent an empty unreasoning fear that so many have adopted as a way of
life......... That the empty black boxes symbolize that fear. That the fear
is so amorphous that it has to be labeled so that it can be recognized. The
news channels deliver the fear endlessly but it has no face. The artist gave
it a face: Empty black-painted cardboard boxes neatly labeled.
Was it our long ago President Roosevelt who said that the only thing we have
to fear is fear itself?
Catherine in Yuma, AZ
Two ancient electric kilns. Both outside.
It never rains here at the Mexican border.
One partner, one kid, one dog, two cats. All inside.
John Jensen on sat 28 dec 02
My vision of the situation is different in knowledge of the boxes being
taped to the wall, rather than sitting on the floor as I had imagined.
On the wall they seem less likely to contain a physical threat, though
this may be unreasonable. Tape can probably support a fair amount of
explosive material. The fact of the word being on a box is different
than the word being on a flat surface. Is the box implied to contain
fear? Or are we commanded to fear the contents?
I am beginning to wish I had an opportunity to see the event that has
provoked so much discussion here. In my mind it makes a difference
whether the installation was designed to create fear or not, and I guess
I can't judge that on the basis of the information I have.
John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery
mudbug@toadhouse.com, www.toadhouse.com
Gavin Stairs on sun 29 dec 02
Throughout this discussion, I have been reminded of two things.
1. A story from a friend who was driving through the Eastern US on his way
to a business meeting. He was caught speeding, and being a repentant
Canadian type, apologized to the cop who pulled him over. The officer was
having none of it. He said, "This is a free country. You can do whatever
you want, but if you get caught breaking the law, you pay the
consequences." Somewhat different from our Canadian sensibility, but very
interesting.
2. From the theory of non-violent protest and civil disobedience: You do
what is necessary, and then you endure the consequences. There is no
delusion that one can flout the law and get off scot-free.
I take it that the artist can do whatever he wants, but that society gets
the last word through the courts. He will face whatever charges they
bring, and he will pay the consequences. Some will hold him blameless,
others will excoriate him. I guess it is for him to decide if it was worth it.
Gavin
At 10:42 PM 28/12/2002 -0600, Carol Ross wrote:
> >From the NYTimes -
>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30E1EFD3E590C7B8DDDAB0994DA4
>04482
>----begin quoted material-------
>
>The Arts/Cultural Desk | December 18, 2002, Wednesday
>Critic's Notebook; In New York, Art Is Crime, And Crime Becomes Art
>
>By MICHAEL KIMMELMAN (NYT) 960 words
>Late Edition - Final , Section E , Page 1 , Column 5
>
>
>At the same time it turned out that those 37 black boxes with the word
>''Fear'' on them, which mysteriously turned up attached to girders and walls
>in the Union Square subway station last Wednesday, were, as you may have
>guessed from the start, an art project. The boxes, which spread panic and
>caused the police to shut the station for hours and call in the bomb squad,
>turn out to be the work of Clinton Boisvert, a 25-year-old freshman at the
>School of Visual Arts in Manhattan, who surrendered Monday to the Manhattan
>district attorney's office, which intends to prosecute him on charges of
>reckless endangerment.
>
>-------end quoted material---------
Chris on sun 29 dec 02
hello all,
I am a list lurker and have been staying out of the debate, but reading all
the posts, and after reading some more articles like the one in the ny
times, i got a much different picture of the display, originally i had
thought that there was a pile or a wall of black boxes in one area, but now
it seems that they were dispalyed separately and attached to walls and
benches. I don't know about the rest of you, but i live in a rather rural
area - arkansas, but have traveled quite a bit since 9/11 - and after going
to dc and riding the metro where all of the trash cans have been removed in
order to keep people from leaving bombs in them, having to drink my hot
starbucks coffee in front of security guards in order to prove that it is
indeed coffee, and having my toddler removed from his carrier to be
searched, I find it hard to believe that anyone living in ny would think
that it was okay to leave suspicious packages on benches in a public area.
We are in a war against "terrorism" a word which no one can even define -
now, that's scary. I find it hard to believe that more people on this list
aren't already being affected by the new police state in which we live -the
voluntary "registrations" leading to arrests and deportations have already
begun.
If you really want something to freak out about look at this article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2604805.stm
clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
claybair on sun 29 dec 02
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF&q=Clinton+Boisvert
Will get you viewpoints as diverse as we have had on Clayart.
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
Dewitt on sun 29 dec 02
I wonder if so many people would be supportive of this student if, instead
of an art project, it had been a psychology class assignment to conduct an
experiment on unknowing and unwilling participants, intending to
demonstrate the irrational tendency toward fear-based reactions in today's
post-911 society?
deg
---------------------------
Dewitt Gimblet
Austin, Tx
---------------------------
claybair on sun 29 dec 02
Craig,
You do realize that if the authorities were to pursue "that
which they define as being a source of or inciting "terror""
they would have to incarcerate themselves, all those "good" folks in the
White House, 100% our politicians, 100% of our newscasters, a lot of
religious people,
most of the entertainment industry, most of the Medical profession including
all those Drs who endorse aspirin, toothpaste and Prozac, the NRA & all gun
owners, a goodly number of educators, lots of corporate folk & 110% of our
lawyers etc. etc. etc.......
As we would not have enough room in our jails we'd just have to turn the USA
into a very large penal colony and place those not inciting terror in
protective custody say...... in those otherwise empty jails.
What about the artisans?????? Since this place will have become so insane
we'd have to colonize some new planet & start all over again!-o
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
Craig Clark wrote>>>
Earl, what type of Orwellian nightmare are you willing to tolerate? Just
how far should the authorities be permitted to go in there pursuit of that
which they define as being a source of or inciting "terror?" What, if any,
specific types of criteria ought or ought not be used in this totalitarian
state of affairs ?
Art is about IDEAS and the expression of those ideas. Whether it is
accomplished well is a matter of debate. In this instance I find the piece
to be sophomoric at best. Though it has certainly juiced up conversation. If
you really want to be frightened take some time and read the Patriot Act.
Scary stuff!
Curious
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
----- Original Message -----
From: Earl Brunner
To:
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: Black boxes, and consequences, or moreso, the consequences OF
the 'consequences' it seems...?
> Come on Phil, like it or not, the current climate in the world does call
> for a certain amount of brains and common sense in what we do. If not
> arrogance, than stupidity. Say the word bomb in an airport or on a
> plane. In my view, the same thing.
>
> The underlying principle of terrorism is "fear". The idiot could be
> defined as a terrorist even if he caused no physical damage. Terrorist,
> create and prey on fear.
>
> Earl Brunner
>
> Philip Poburka wrote:
> > While I do not know this Artist, and I do not know anything
> > about them, the only thing I have to work with, as is not
> > knowledge, but heresay, is, that: He had painted the word
> > 'fear' on some black cardboard boxes and set them on the
> > ground in a public place.
> >
> > Where is the 'arrogance' here?
> >
> > 'Youthful' or otherwise?
> >
> >
> >
> > We were told the 'authorities' arrested him, and as well,
> > 'closed' the public place for sometime.
> >
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
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Craig Clark on sun 29 dec 02
Gayle, now there's a great idea. Colonize a new planet with artisans.
I'll bet zero gravity would give me one helluva an edge with throwin big
pots. Wonder how far a 20lb lump of mud can be stretched in space?
Don't know that I'd go for a colonization mission but I certainly
wouldn't mind low orbit support from time to time.
Hope this lightens things up a bit
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
mudman@hal-pc.org
----- Original Message -----
From: claybair
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: Black boxes
> Craig,
>
> You do realize that if the authorities were to pursue "that
> which they define as being a source of or inciting "terror""
> they would have to incarcerate themselves, all those "good" folks in the
> White House, 100% our politicians, 100% of our newscasters, a lot of
> religious people,
> most of the entertainment industry, most of the Medical profession
including
> all those Drs who endorse aspirin, toothpaste and Prozac, the NRA & all
gun
> owners, a goodly number of educators, lots of corporate folk & 110% of our
> lawyers etc. etc. etc.......
>
> As we would not have enough room in our jails we'd just have to turn the
USA
> into a very large penal colony and place those not inciting terror in
> protective custody say...... in those otherwise empty jails.
>
> What about the artisans?????? Since this place will have become so insane
> we'd have to colonize some new planet & start all over again!-o
>
> Gayle Bair
> Bainbridge Island, WA
> http://claybair.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Craig Clark wrote>>>
>
> Earl, what type of Orwellian nightmare are you willing to tolerate?
Just
> how far should the authorities be permitted to go in there pursuit of that
> which they define as being a source of or inciting "terror?" What, if any,
> specific types of criteria ought or ought not be used in this totalitarian
> state of affairs ?
> Art is about IDEAS and the expression of those ideas. Whether it is
> accomplished well is a matter of debate. In this instance I find the piece
> to be sophomoric at best. Though it has certainly juiced up conversation.
If
> you really want to be frightened take some time and read the Patriot Act.
> Scary stuff!
> Curious
> Craig Dunn Clark
> 619 East 11 1/2 st
> Houston, Texas 77008
> (713)861-2083
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Earl Brunner
> To:
> Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 11:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Black boxes, and consequences, or moreso, the consequences OF
> the 'consequences' it seems...?
>
>
> > Come on Phil, like it or not, the current climate in the world does call
> > for a certain amount of brains and common sense in what we do. If not
> > arrogance, than stupidity. Say the word bomb in an airport or on a
> > plane. In my view, the same thing.
> >
> > The underlying principle of terrorism is "fear". The idiot could be
> > defined as a terrorist even if he caused no physical damage. Terrorist,
> > create and prey on fear.
> >
> > Earl Brunner
> >
> > Philip Poburka wrote:
> > > While I do not know this Artist, and I do not know anything
> > > about them, the only thing I have to work with, as is not
> > > knowledge, but heresay, is, that: He had painted the word
> > > 'fear' on some black cardboard boxes and set them on the
> > > ground in a public place.
> > >
> > > Where is the 'arrogance' here?
> > >
> > > 'Youthful' or otherwise?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We were told the 'authorities' arrested him, and as well,
> > > 'closed' the public place for sometime.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
RPeckham@COOKSONELECTRONICS.COM on mon 30 dec 02
WOW!
Just catching up on three days of Clayart.
Clinton Boisvert has certainly struck a cord.
What an outpouring of emotion from one 25 year old person. His art will
certainly be gobbled up for unreal amounts by "art" lovers in the future.
It is relatively easy to evoke emotion. Like running into an all black
neighboorhood, and calling everybody the "n" word. Not bright, but would
work.
Everybody knows this country is skittish right now, showing it to us isn't
necessary, and showing it to us at the expense of other people is
irresponsible.
That said, lots of people do irresponsible things everyday, so what?
The problem is the responsibility that comes with our freedom. If I go
hiking in the White Mountains without a map, that is irresponsible, but I
have the freedom to do so. If I get lost, and a rescue effort is
launched, I will have to pay for my lack of responsibility.
McDonalds made hot coffee, and sold it to idiots without a warning on the
label. They had to pay for their lack of responsibility.
I think what Clinton did was fairly impressive, and terribly
irresponsible. It hurt feelings, and made people nervous, so what? That
is what people do. It does allow us to take a step back, and analyze our
existence.
I think the only problem was not making the necessary steps to do what he
did. I can not go to downtown Providence on a Saturday afternoon, and set
up a table to sell my pots. It is me expressing myself, but it is still
not legal. All the cries of "I am an Artiste, and you can not keep me
from expressing myself" would not help.
I would have to make petitions, get licenses etc, etc. This system is in
place to prevent problems. If an event is going to be big enough you have
to pay for police, and a porta-potty yada yada yada.
Clinton Boisvert had the freedom to make his creative exhibition. He did
it irresponsibly, and now he will have to pay the consequences.
As far as suggesting that the local authorities over reacted, give me a
break! I know I can't go into an airport and joke about carrying a bomb.
People will over-react. That's their job. I would rather have them over
react when some knuckle head makes an artistic statement, than under react
when some other knuckle head decides to blow up the train station.
Just my 2cents
Randy Peckham
MJ Moriarty on mon 30 dec 02
So what was Orsen Wells' punishment when War of the Worlds had people in a
panic about Martian invaders?
I can't imagine people thinking that a terrorist would put a big "FEAR"
lable on his bombs. But then I can't imagine people seeing Martians in
New Jersey, and they did.
If some people choose to put themselves into a dither over every little
thing, well, maybe that makes their lives more exciting and provides
stories to tell that will make them the center of attention for a few
minutes. They really should be more terrified of sharing the highway with
drunk drivers, but since we all do that nearly every day it just doesn't
make much of a story.
Joan Ashworth on mon 30 dec 02
We lived for a time when black boxes in public places meant bombs and
indiscriminate death. I do not recall an incident when art 'toyed' with the
concept - but then under apartheid laws, draconian measures meant you might
never see the artist again....
A more recent artistic challenge occurred a little while ago. Each year
there is an exhibition of school students' work, from ages 6 to 18 . A
professional artist is invited to show with the students. ON this occasion,
the lady invited had a bit of a reputation for shock, so her works were
mounted (Oh dear) for her, to ensure the delicacy of little girls was
protected.
The very next day was the opening. She had sneaked in particularly early and
changed one particular work - a great male member, armed and ready, veins
and all, projected from the picture - Even the artist directors were
horrified and little girls brought in busloads shrieked and screamed in
horror or something else and parents swore never to venture near the art
gallery again.
The artist knew what she was doing and had achieved her aim
The 'offending' work was taken down, but the damage done between art and and
a rather unsophiticated community still resonates.
Joan
sweltering in Durban.
Vince Pitelka on tue 31 dec 02
> As far as suggesting that the local authorities over reacted, give me a
> break! I know I can't go into an airport and joke about carrying a bomb.
> People will over-react. That's their job. I would rather have them over
> react when some knuckle head makes an artistic statement, than under react
> when some other knuckle head decides to blow up the train station.
I think this discussion has about run its course, but it is important to
point out that the authorities completely overreacted, but that was only to
save their butts because initially they had "under-reacted." In other
words, they didn't do their damn jobs at all when Clinton Boisvert was
setting up his installation. It was only after people complained about the
completed installation that they noticed at all. As I said before, if the
security people had been doing their jobs, this discussion would not be
taking place, because they would have halted the installation when the first
few boxes were being carried into Union Station. So, they realized how
badly they had screwed up, and they figured they better make a BIG DEAL out
of it in order to cover their asses.
This installation really accomplished a lot, on so many different levels.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
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