Tony Ferguson on wed 8 jan 03
chords here)
Gavin and all,
Since we are on the topic of health hazards and what was once thought to be
safe or healthy is now not so, consider taking a gander at "The Mad Cowboy"
by Howard Lymann. This guy's book should be required reading by anyone who
can read (or read to a friend who can't) as he connects the dots that affect
us all. A truly must read for anyone who cares about life, your own health
and preservation, and the health of the planet.
Also--if common sense were common, we'd all have it. So it aint common, its
uncommon sense.
Thank you.
Tony Ferguson
On Lake Superior, where the sky meets the Lake
Stoneware, Porcelain, Raku
www.aquariusartgallery.com
218-727-6339
315 N. Lake Ave
Apt 312
Duluth, MN 55806
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavin Stairs"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: The glaze that killed the world (insert diminished minor chords
here)
> At 09:11 PM 06/01/2003 -0600, Karl wrote:
> >The topic that won't go away...
> >...The point being that there's no point to the endless hysteria into
> >which these topics appear to be doomed. All you need to know is on the
> >MSDS, and to not wallow in your work, eat your work, smoke (anything)
> >while working and to follow one's natural anti-Darwinian inclinations by
> >avoiding being downwind of anything dusty or fumey as a matter of
> >course....and, of course, to bathe. ...
>
> Hi Karl,
>
> Nice to hear your dulcet, reasoned tones again. These base level common
> sense precautions are all things we now take for granted, but were unheard
> of a scant few years ago. The MSDS is the most recent of these personal
> protection practices, and it's only a couple of decades old. There are
> plenty of people still living, though often with diminished capacities,
who
> would have laughed at your list while they were working in industry. And
> there are still no doubt a few smokers who haven't heard about the
> synergistic damage of smoking and other damaging practices.
>
> While we're glad you will be outliving all the rest of us, we are still
> struggling to get it all right. Lead was a hazard virtually all of our
> ancestors lived with for several generations, and it was only recognized
as
> a true hazard recently. Does that mean it would be right for to us to
> ignore current knowledge about this risk? Smoking was once thought to be
a
> health promoting habit. Do you still think so?
>
> Just because a risk is not acute does not mean it is meaningless or should
> be ignored. I would be grateful if you would permit the rest of us to
> struggle along in our ignorance, trying to make the best of our limited
> grasp of the truth, without being flamed for it. Please simply delete any
> mentions of risks you deem unworthy.
>
> Thanks, Gavin
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
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> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
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>
Matt MacIntire on thu 9 jan 03
chords here)
Alhough you make some points that I agree with, there appears to be a
fundamental flaw in your reasoning. I wonder if in fact, you aren't
being just as hysterical about your position as those you accuse?
Referring to "blithering idiots" does not give your arguments much
credibility.
The fact that you have not become ill by using Barium or Selenium does
not change the toxicity of these materials. Often is not potters who
would be unaware of the dangers, but others. How many potters do you
think might have children around? Or students? Sure... education is
indicated. But a safe working environment is too. We each must define
that for ourselves. What works for you may not work for me. Knowledge
is the key.
Suppose I meet a man on the street who has been smoking 2 packs a day
for 30 years, yet he has no lung cancer. Can I rationally conclude that
smoking is safe?
I've used dangerous materials too. I used to bag up Barium Carbonate
every day when I worked at a pottery supply business. I too still have
(most of) my brain cells. I agree with you that there is no reason to
be afraid of chemicals. Tylenol will kill you if you take too much.
Why not help people understand the limits of intelligent use?
Maybe you do not care to participate in these discussions. That seems
understandable to me. But to condemn others for seeking the knowledge
that you already seem to posess seems foolish.=20
No discussion which helps spread important knowledge can reasonably be
construed as idiotic.
Matt
Edouard Bastarache on thu 9 jan 03
chords here)
Right on Jim!!!
> ", organophosphates and chlorinated hydrocarbons
> (pesticides), cyanides, amino and aromatic nitro compounds,
> mercury, tetraethyl lead... A good starting point would be
> if the chemical has an ACGIH Skin notation..."
"Ils sont fous ces Quebecois"
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
Edouard Bastarache on thu 9 jan 03
chords here)
Right on the nose,
Thank you
"Ils sont fous ces Quebecois"
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: bnsaijim
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: The glaze that killed the world (insert diminished minor chords
here)
> Karl Platt,
>
> >What the hell does this have to do with potting in the 21st
> Century? Less than nothing.
>
> It has everything to do with one's ability to do pottery far
> into the 21st centurey.
>
> >"Having fooled around with the most commonly used ceramic
> raw
> materials for more than 35 years, I do not think any of them
> present a threat of poisoning following skin contact."
>
> >Agreed.
>
> also.
>
>
> ", organophosphates and chlorinated hydrocarbons
> (pesticides)...A good starting point would be
> if the chemical has an ACGIH Skin notation..." Say what?!
> Does this have something to do with why old glaze smells
> funny?
>
> No. The original question to which I responded asked what
> chemicals might be absorbed by the skin. It was a plea for
> general information to help understand the process and how
> to obtain this information.
>
> >On the contrary. It's hard not to look a little bewildered
> in the face of tortuous
> polysyllabic medispeak...
>
> Glad you are sound and healthy. Hope you enjoy continued
> health for many more years. Perhaps it's just luck. I'd be
> glad (as would any one of the other writers, I'm sure) to
> explain and elaborate for anyone "bewildered" by the
> language. In fact, I tend to oversimplify (which is why I
> get corrected by Mr. B on some detail or other) since I
> figure most readers of the List do not have a lot of
> chemistry, toxicology, etc.
>
> >Any modern studio worker who ever took ill from raw
> materials in a ceramic or glass
> studio did so because they were stupid -- and they are
> *extreeeeemly* rare.. Fact.
>
> Is it? I would suspect minimal data compared to the
> industrial trades given the nature of most potter's lives-
> small scale, solitary, inconsistent access to healthcare...
> Any reporting would be at the discretion and ambition of the
> physician, assuming he's sharp enough to realize that a
> potter's given condition is/was "work-related".
>
> >Anyone who got sick licked brushes... smoked in the batch
> room,
> smoked while glazing stained glass or picked their nose
> while dipping raw glaze
> daily for a decade... Most people
> reading this list are working at an extremely limited scale
> where the concentration
> raw
> material is exceedingly small... it's not like working at
> a mine...
>
> Gee, and what about those "dumb folks" who simply weren't
> taught proper work practices? In some cases the limitted
> quantities do truly limit one's dose. In other cases this
> is not applicable. They may not get immediately sick.
> There's this thing called chronic exposure, which I believe
> you alluded to. It means your exposure in the workplace
> potentially combines with any number of exposures/lifestyle
> factors to get you sick later on....
>
> Just because one does not see industrial-grade incident
> statistics does not mean zero risk. Your "data" is
> anecdotal. The truth is, only limitted data is available on
> the small-scale studio potter. In light of that we are
> forced to extrapolate from industrial studies and other
> sources...
>
> >Look, I'm not dead or even in slightly poor health because
> of my work, which has to
> do with tons of these vile substances
>
> You would like to extrapolate your experience to the entire
> population. You may not be the physiological norm. Without
> knowing your personal data, not that I have any desire to,
> perhaps your exposures have not caught up with you yet.
>
> Would you deny the incidence of musculo-skeletal disorders
> simply because you don't have any? Seems to me in the 10
> months or so on this list this has been a frequent topic-
> sore backs, carpal tunnel, etc... Unfortunately this too
> would be considered "anecdotal" as no valid study has been
> made.
>
> >All you need to know is on the MSDS,
>
> Bull crap. At least half of the MSDS out there are
> worthless drivel watered down, if not written completely by
> corporate lawyers who are simply looking to CYA. Here's
> where you find either your hysteria or simply "Trade Secret"
> or N/A.
>
> >and to not wallow in
> your work, eat your work, smoke (anything) while
> working...and, of course, to bathe.
>
> All true. Hygiene is the number one simplest protective
> measure one can take. I've said this in previous posts, as
> have others.
>
> >"Blithering idiots", "blithering hysterics"...
>
> Seems the best response you can come up with is name calling
> and whining. There's probably more combined years of
> experience and education responding to these queries than
> your years on the planet.
>
> I believe this is an open, though moderated, forum. None of
> those providing toxicology information launched into
> unsolicited lectures- these were in response to questions.
> While it may not interest you it obviously does others.
> Most email programs have filtering functions, or perhaps you
> need to discover a small button, usually located to the
> right on one's keyboard, called the "Delete" key...
>
> Sincerely,
>
> James Stone, MSPH, CIH, CSP
> Industrial Hygienist
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
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