Peter and Samantha Tomich on fri 14 feb 03

Hi Snail,

It is the fact that someone is ascribing a power to them that only God would
posess that would make a kiln God an idol. Seeking power from something is
also a form of worshipping it. It is true that many "lucky talisman" type of
things exist, but on the devout they aren't worshiped as something that
gives one power, but displayed to proclaim ones faith or as an act of
worship. The only Judeo-Christian Religious groups that adhere to no
likenesses being produced in any fashion are, I believe, the Orthodox Jews,
and cults or quasi-cults with a Biblical base. I, personally would never
have a kiln God, but I don't think it's high on my list of things I worry
about others having. I would never have a priest bless my kiln either. I
bless it myself. I believe we have the authority to do so. So I don't need a
kiln God. I have my science and my own blessings from heaven.

The question now is why God would ask anyone not to make anything
representational and why this isn't followed anymore. First, the word graven
image in Deut, 5:8 in the Hebrew is pesel, and according to my Lexicon it
referes to "an idol which has been carved". Secondly, the word for likeness
is timunah (I can't put the pronunciation marks), which refers to image,
manifestation, phantom, and specifically in this instance to an image of
God. This may be true or not. Ababi, how's your Hebrew, tell me if my
lexicon is biased. Anyway that is moot because the Old Testament also tells
us not to shave, have a tatoo, not to eat seafood, pork, lots of goodies. It
says if you have mildew in your house you are to burn it down. It was a
means of separating the nation unto God. The word holy in greek is hagios
which means set apart, separated. This is the purpose of the law to keep the
people holy or separated from other people groups. Matt. 5:17-20, Jesus says
he has come to fulfill the law not break it and if you teach men to break it
you will be the least in heaven (my paraphrase). Then there's Peter having a
vision in Acts 10 where God commands him to eat foods that are forbidden by
law(considered unclean). Which leads to Peter accepting a Gentile into his
home which is the first Gentile conversion to Christianity (Gentiles were
considered unclean). Romans 6:10 Paul writes, " ...ye are not under the
law, but under grace." meaning we are not under the law of moses because it
is a covenant (contract) which is broken by death - in this cases the
symbolic death of the person in baptism and daily dying to self (putting
others first..) "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: You
shall love your neighbor as yourself" Galatians 5:14. And our drive to make
things comes from being made in God's image. The creator, the potter.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Snail Scott
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 4:57 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Kiln gods -uh oh!


At 01:09 AM 2/14/03 -0800, you wrote:
>Not to put a damper on anyone's fun but when I was recently talking with
>my Rabbi about clay I mentioned the practice of making kiln gods to
>insure a good firing. He found the practice interesting but asked if I
>realized that kiln gods were a form of idolatry.


I went to the source on this one, just out of
curiosity. In Deuteronomy 5:8-9 (New King James
Version) the wording is "You shall not make for
yourself any carved image - any likeness of
anything that is in heaven above, or that is in
the earth beneath, or that is in the water under
the earth. You shall not bow down to them or
serve them...

Sounds to me that if your kiln gods are not
illustrative of actual critters, you're off the
hook. (Most folks' kiln gods are more surrealistic
than realistic, anyhow. But better not worship
them just in case, since a jealous god will "visit
the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to
the third and fourth generations...) ;)

No specified penalty to the actual idol-maker,
though. Hmmm...

I once had a show protested by a Christian group
as being 'idolatrous'. The work sure wasn't in
the image of anything on earth, that's for sure,
and although it sold well, I didn't see any worship
happening at the gallery. (Just underappreciated,
I guess.) Were they confused, or what? Is the
actual concept of 'idolatry' becoming subsumed
into a general notion of weirdness or some such?

So, why are kiln gods 'idolatrous', and figural
sculpture isn't? (I mean currently. Historically,
it was often seen to be so, and I think most Muslim
sects still see it that way.) Is it because the
intent (either in earnest or in jest) is semi-
magical? Even though no 'worship', per se, has
occurred? But, lucky talismans of all sorts
permeate both Christian and Jewish custom...

The actual wording seemd to indicate that ANY
representational sculpture is a no-no, regardless
of usage. Just out of curiosity, as an athiest,
which sects of the Judeo-Christian tradition
actually follow the letter of this? and how are
looser interpretations justified, theologically?
Iconoclasm seems to come and go through Western
history. It seems that an irrepressible human
compulsion to make stuff (and especially to
represent stuff) rises to the surface repeatedly,
even in the face of divine retribution AND
ecclesiastical penalties.

-Snail

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Graeme Anderson on fri 14 feb 03

As I was born in the "Year of the Dog", my kiln gods were in the form of a
little dog, with one hind leg raised towards the kiln.
Funny thing, I never had an overfire while the dog was in place.
Cheers. Graeme.

Snail Scott on fri 14 feb 03

At 01:09 AM 2/14/03 -0800, you wrote:
>Not to put a damper on anyone's fun but when I was recently talking with
>my Rabbi about clay I mentioned the practice of making kiln gods to
>insure a good firing. He found the practice interesting but asked if I
>realized that kiln gods were a form of idolatry.


I went to the source on this one, just out of
curiosity. In Deuteronomy 5:8-9 (New King James
Version) the wording is "You shall not make for
yourself any carved image - any likeness of
anything that is in heaven above, or that is in
the earth beneath, or that is in the water under
the earth. You shall not bow down to them or
serve them...

Sounds to me that if your kiln gods are not
illustrative of actual critters, you're off the
hook. (Most folks' kiln gods are more surrealistic
than realistic, anyhow. But better not worship
them just in case, since a jealous god will "visit
the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to
the third and fourth generations...) ;)

No specified penalty to the actual idol-maker,
though. Hmmm...

I once had a show protested by a Christian group
as being 'idolatrous'. The work sure wasn't in
the image of anything on earth, that's for sure,
and although it sold well, I didn't see any worship
happening at the gallery. (Just underappreciated,
I guess.) Were they confused, or what? Is the
actual concept of 'idolatry' becoming subsumed
into a general notion of weirdness or some such?

So, why are kiln gods 'idolatrous', and figural
sculpture isn't? (I mean currently. Historically,
it was often seen to be so, and I think most Muslim
sects still see it that way.) Is it because the
intent (either in earnest or in jest) is semi-
magical? Even though no 'worship', per se, has
occurred? But, lucky talismans of all sorts
permeate both Christian and Jewish custom...

The actual wording seemd to indicate that ANY
representational sculpture is a no-no, regardless
of usage. Just out of curiosity, as an athiest,
which sects of the Judeo-Christian tradition
actually follow the letter of this? and how are
looser interpretations justified, theologically?
Iconoclasm seems to come and go through Western
history. It seems that an irrepressible human
compulsion to make stuff (and especially to
represent stuff) rises to the surface repeatedly,
even in the face of divine retribution AND
ecclesiastical penalties.

-Snail

Kathi LeSueur on sat 15 feb 03

snail@MINDSPRING.COM wrote:

>At 01:09 AM 2/14/03 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>I went to the source on this one, just out of
>curiosity. In Deuteronomy 5:8-9 (New King James
>Version) the wording is "You shall not make for
>yourself any carved image - any likeness of
>anything that is in heaven above, or that is in
>the earth beneath, or that is in the water under
>the earth. You shall not bow down to them or
>serve them...>>
>

Actually the verse is from Deuteronomy 5:6, also found in Exodus 20. "I
the Lord am your G-d who brought you out of Egypt, the house of bondage.
You shall have no other G-ds beside me."

"Kiln gods" are gods. Images created with the expectation that they will
have influence on something the maker wishes to happen. Translation is
always a problem. the "King James Version" is not a very good
translation of the hebrew. There are not a lot of words in ancient
hebrew which affects translation even more so that the phrase "he walked
by the sea" could be interpreted as "he walked on the sea". "By" and
"on" are the same word.

However, as Lila wrote to me, kiln gods could also be considered as
amulets. Not that it would get by the Rabbi. But as he said, if we
looked at all of the things we do in the strict interpretation of
idolatry, G-d would be smiting most of us for violating the first
commandment.

Kathi

>
>
>
>

Leland G. Hall on sat 15 feb 03

Hi Snail.
You wrote in part:
"Just out of curiosity, as an athiest,
which sects of the---------"

You too eh? Glad to meetcha. I sometimes feel like I'm the only one on the
planet. I feel a little less lonely. Takes guts. Have you found this to
be an extremely unpopular position? I have. Still, it's all that works
for me. Oh, by the way, my kiln god rides a Harley. Think Ill send in to
the page.

Leland Hall
Before the Wheel Enterprises
La Pine, OR,

Lee Love on sat 15 feb 03

----- Original Message -----
From: "Snail Scott"

> So, why are kiln gods 'idolatrous', and figural
> sculpture isn't?

For the Noborigama firings, Sensei always makes an offering of Sake and
salt. They are left on a ledge next to the main opening of the firemouth.
No "figurines" involved (it is a sort of Shinto offering & figurines don't play
much of a part in Shinto. It is very animistic.)

At Kanjiro Kawaii's home and studio in Kyoto, he has a little recessed
window in his bisque kiln. There is also a rice straw and white paper Shinto
offering hanging over the little square where the Sake and salt was probably
placed.

It's a misunderstanding to think that kiln dieties or offerings are
something that replace "calculations." But not everybody understands a
spiritual approach to creativity and it is even more rarely understood in our
materialistic times. These rituals prepare the makers attitude. They help
bring wholeness after the intellect has chopped everything to death. These
practices help one break out of an egotistical perspective and helps you
understand where the real source of creativity lives.

Because of our post-modern paradigm, most people should problable
trash their glaze programs and burn their books. Better to spend some time
in nature, by a stream, under the trees or beside the surf, watching it go in
and out.

The head is not enough...

--
Lee In Mashiko Ikiru@hachiko.com
.
"With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the
difference.
If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will make a
difference."

~~Bernard Leach~~
(As told to Dean Schwarz)

Catherine White on sat 15 feb 03

Nope, you're not alone.

Many thanks,
Catherine in Yuma, AZ
http://www.clayart.fsnet.co.uk/pp_catherine_white.html

----- snip -----

> Hi Snail.
> You wrote in part:
> "Just out of curiosity, as an athiest,
> which sects of the---------"
>
> You too eh? Glad to meetcha. I sometimes feel like I'm the only one on
the
> planet. I feel a little less lonely. Takes guts. Have you found this to
> be an extremely unpopular position? I have. Still, it's all that works
> for me. Oh, by the way, my kiln god rides a Harley. Think Ill send in
to
> the page.
>
> Leland Hall

Harrington on sun 16 feb 03

Hi folks. As a non-denominational Christian, who takes to Bible
literally, I have been raised in a tradition that allows all kinds of
art, representational or otherwise, as long as you don't worship it.
When we decorate our church, we use a cross, but never with Christ
hanging on it - that would be considered a temptation to idolize the
image. We don't have icons such as in the Catholic or Russian or Greek
orthodox traditions. We don't venerate Mary or the saints, because they
are not God, and therefore images of them don't occur in our churches so
we aren't tempted to transfer our worship of God onto images. We also
don't consult mediums or fortune-tellers or astrologers, because those
things are considered to be of the occult.

That said, in my home we have paintings of Madonna and Child, and a
variety of other religious images that someone really strict, such as my
mother, are horrified by. To us, however, they are simply good art. We
don't pray to them or ascribe to them any supernatural powers,
therefore, they are not idols. They are representations of of religious
matter, but it is all in your perspective as to how you feel about them,
and I don't think God has any objection to our admiring them.

As for a Kiln God, I wouldn't have one, because I already have Actual
God, and that's who I appeal to for success in the kiln. Why not go
straight to the top?. However, as a religious person, I see no harm in
having a Kiln Companion. After all, I keep a stuffed animal in my studio
for company. I don't pray to it, and I imagine most people don't
actually worship thier Kiln Gods as dieties. They are just there to
share the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. So if you feel a
little wierd about having a kiln god, maybe you should re-designate it
it as a kiln companion and just let it share your space in peace and powerlessness.

Also, Muslims take the biblical injunction against graven images very,
very seriously. They almost never tolerate any kind of iconic imagery.
Their art is usually all about pattern and color with no human or animal images.

Lisa

Tom's E-mail on sun 16 feb 03

Personally, I hate rules - biblical or koran inspired --- so I'm gonna make
a pantheon of kiln gods, do dances around my kiln, drink wine and sing to
Gaia.
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com

Sabine Wolf on sun 16 feb 03

> Also, Muslims take the biblical injunction against graven images very,
> very seriously. They almost never tolerate any kind of iconic imagery.
> Their art is usually all about pattern and color with no human or animal
images.
But today they have a lot of pictures of their leaders, I think this is not
really in the sense of the islam.

Sabine

Carole Rishel on sun 16 feb 03

I have two kiln goddesses that I put on the kiln before I fire. I do not
worship them. I do not embue them with any magical power. All magical
power comes from the One - I know that. I do however, consider the talent
that the One gave me to make clay art, a sacred thing. They do however
remind me to double check all the switches, cone, plugs etc. before I turn
it on.

I believe that the whole concept of not making graven images has to do with
the prevention of the worship of the graven images rather than God,
resulting in the separation of humanity from God.

Carole Rishel
kallahcee@msn.com
Smithville, TX


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathi LeSueur"
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: Kiln gods -uh oh!


> snail@MINDSPRING.COM wrote:
>
> >At 01:09 AM 2/14/03 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >I went to the source on this one, just out of
> >curiosity. In Deuteronomy 5:8-9 (New King James
> >Version) the wording is "You shall not make for
> >yourself any carved image - any likeness of
> >anything that is in heaven above, or that is in
> >the earth beneath, or that is in the water under
> >the earth. You shall not bow down to them or
> >serve them...>>
> >
>
> Actually the verse is from Deuteronomy 5:6, also found in Exodus 20. "I
> the Lord am your G-d who brought you out of Egypt, the house of bondage.
> You shall have no other G-ds beside me."
>
> "Kiln gods" are gods. Images created with the expectation that they will
> have influence on something the maker wishes to happen. Translation is
> always a problem. the "King James Version" is not a very good
> translation of the hebrew. There are not a lot of words in ancient
> hebrew which affects translation even more so that the phrase "he walked
> by the sea" could be interpreted as "he walked on the sea". "By" and
> "on" are the same word.
>
> However, as Lila wrote to me, kiln gods could also be considered as
> amulets. Not that it would get by the Rabbi. But as he said, if we
> looked at all of the things we do in the strict interpretation of
> idolatry, G-d would be smiting most of us for violating the first
> commandment.
>
> Kathi
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>

Carol Tripp on mon 17 feb 03

Lisa wrote, in part:
>Also, Muslims take the biblical injunction against graven images very,
>very seriously. They almost never tolerate any kind of iconic imagery.
>Their art is usually all about pattern and color with no human or animal
>images.
>
Good Morning Clayart,

Generalizations about Muslims are just as inaccurate as generalizations
about Christians or Jews. I live in a Muslim country in the midst of other
Muslim countries and each one has very different rules. A good friend who
moved to a neighbouring country had to sell, give away or cut up all her art
books which she had imported into the UAE without a problem, unless there
were nudes of course.

Personally, I never even heard of kiln gods until I attended the infamous
Peter's Valley workshop of a few years back and the kiln gods sure as hell
didn't do a thing for that particular firing. So, that was one idea I never
bothered with once I returned home.

Best regards,
Carol
Dubai, UAE
Another sand storm on the way.


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