Janet Kaiser on sun 23 mar 03
I think Jacqui must be on no-mail, because she would have commented on
this. You may or may not know Portmeirion Pottery? The "botanical garden"
is probably the most famous... Anyway, it is manufactured in Stoke-on-Trent
(although it could have relocated to Far East - I don't know.)
Because of the local connection we have a couple of Portmeirion "seconds"
shops here. (Portmeirion is an Italianate style village built by an
eccentric architect here in North Wales - made famous by The Prisoner
series with Patrick McGohan (sp?)
Anyway, Jacqui saw a whole load of crystalline-glazed plates and stuff.
Shock! Horror! Cause fellow Clay arter and friend Avril Farley makes
porcelain bottles, bowls, etc. with crystalline glazes... And there was no
way Avril could compete with the low prices on this stuff (although it was
substandard ware/pricing).
Anyway, Jacqui talked to the assistant about this new ware and apparently
Portmeirion will not be going into production, because it was considered
uneconomic. Simply too many seconds.
I'm not recommending that everyone change to making crystalline-glazed
ware, but it demonstrates how some work will never be reproducible by
manufacturing methods.
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser
*** IN REPLY TO THE FOLLOWING MAIL:
*** From: Kathi LeSueur
*** E-address: klesueur@AOL.COM
*** Sent: 22/03/03 Time: 19:48
>In the early 80's a potter I greatly admired was hired by Napco, a large
>wholesale distributor to the gift market. I was living in Texas at the
>time and knew the regional rep for the company. The idea was to take his
>unique designs and have them produced off shore for the gift market.
>Several month later I saw one of the pieces in, of all places, an H.E.B.
>grocery store. The life was gone from the piece. The vigor of the
>throwing did not come through in the mold. And, the glazes were dead.
>When I talked to the rep later he said the line just wasn't sucessful.
> I think one of the tricks to keeping your pieces from being copied is
>to develop a look that is not easily reproduced. Reduction and salt
>glazes just are not used by industry, so that look can't be easily
>duplicated. Forms that can't easily be cast in molds or jiggered are
>safer. but if you use simple forms and your glazes rely on Mason stains
>expect to find your most popular pieces copied someday.
>
>Kathi
*** THE MAIL FROM Kathi LeSueur ENDS HERE ***
**********************************************************************
TRUTH is too precious to tell every fool who asks for it...
****** This post was sent to you today by Janet Kaiser *******
The Chapel of Art / Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent, Criccieth LL52 0EA, Wales, UK
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 URL: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
**********************************************************************
kruzewski on mon 24 mar 03
No, I'm not on no-mail, just madly trying to catch up on my college work =
- the bits that have little to do with clay so not (to me) so inspiring, =
and do all the outside jobs while we have this great weather AND make =
good pots.
Yes, I was astounded when I saw crystal glazed dinner ware, I didn't =
think this was possible, let alone economic. I love crystals, and I =
bought some pieces before they sold out - which they did quite quickly =
because they were so unusual and very cheep -they were seconds. These =
are molded items, the same as any other plate in their range, only the =
glaze is unusual and it certainly lacks the "soul" of Avril's beautiful =
pieces. The "firsts" in this range are being sold in very upmarket shops =
(not in Porthmadog!) and are certainly tons more expensive than the =
seconds I bought. No one making crystal glazed pieces has anything to =
worry about there.
Actually, the huge popularity of Portmeirion dinner ware always amazes =
me - and more so since I was given some by an elderly friend. Basically =
it's molded with transfer patterns - very pretty, very "English =
country", very expensive, but very much factory made. The price it =
costs, you would expect it to be very good quality. The truth is, it =
crazes. I have the tea pot that my friend, Dorothy, used when she had =
visitors, plus tea cups etc, they are crazed with tea stains in the =
crazes, that no bleach or any other cleaner can ever seem to remove. =
Worse still, the tea pot body (under the glaze) is brown, not white, =
having soaked up tea through the crazes in the glaze. Not very =
attractive at all. Yet still it sells by the ton.
Jacqui
North Wales
-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Kaiser [SMTP:janet@THE-COA.ORG.UK]
Sent: 23 March 2003 20:50
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Work which is not going to be reproducable
I think Jacqui must be on no-mail, because she would have commented on
this. You may or may not know Portmeirion Pottery? The "botanical =
garden"
is probably the most famous... Anyway, it is manufactured in =
Janet Kaiser on mon 24 mar 03
Yes, Jacqui, there has always been some wonderment at the success of
Portmeirion pottery. But some of the "unpopular" designs (for example the
oval fish platters which apparently were only in production a very short
time) are very much collector's items these days. Even the black and gold
Zodiac series made in the 1970s hits the "collectibles" books every now and
then.
But going back to the Botanic Garden and that type of Portmeirion white
ware with transfers (which were incidentally copied out of old natural
history books)... Yes, it has that "olde English" look to it, but also a
modern feel with the green leaf borders and which ground. Classical looking
enough for people to feel comfortable about. But it could NEVER be mistaken
as coming out of grandma's bottom drawer... It is so thick! I mean the
edges are far thicker than any "normal" manufactured ware and ribbed to
look even more chunky than they are in reality. Almost as if they were
designed to look like they were really "country ware". Not precisely
hand-made, but definitely a very large step away from Wedgwood, Royal
Doulton and the likes. Which is one more slight indication why it
originally caught on, beside the feeling it was "classic"...
I could not afford the botanic garden (even seconds), so I took six orange
and black Greek Key dinner plates and six side plates away with me to
University. They were practically being given away, because they were so
unpopular (white & black, turquoise & black and other combinations were
what were selling).
I remember how disgusted my mother was, because they were so unlike dainty,
ladylike, "proper" dinnerware, but to me, they were "modern" and "cutting
edge" even if they weighed twice as much as normal dinner ware. Probably
full of cadmium to produce that colour too, but it was quite stunning at
the time. Le Cruset were just hitting the market with their orange
oven-to-table enamel and it matched exactly. Hot stuff!!
The poor quality and subsequent crazing and discolouration soon disabused
me of the value of such ware and of course I was soon able to make my own
crocks, but the novelty of Portmeirion was quite something back then... My
god... 30+ years ago!
I can however understand those who bought half a dozen plates in those days
and have been collecting ever since. A piece at a time... It is what
happens with ware which does not disappear as soon as the honeymoon is
over. The "classics" such as the blue and white "Zwiebelmuster"
(erroneously so called, because the stylised pomegranates looked like
onions to the Europeans) are more conventional than Portmeirion, but
fulfill the same function... Always available to buy for weddings,
anniversaries and so on. For years and years... No ending up with
incomplete sets through breakages. People like that and it is clever
marketing too.
Something production potters need to take to heart too... Always be
prepared to make what they were producing 30 years ago. Tedious? Probably,
but it would guarantee people coming back for years and years. Just need to
work on the "collectability" aspect to begin with... Flowers one series,
fish the next, then maybe followed by cars, animals, teddy bears, Hollywood
stars... Yes, I am only joking, but because Portmeirion cannot be "mix and
matched" with any other ware, people are stuck with either replacing like
with like, or starting over again with something completely new. A
production potter could do worse than learn from them IMHO.
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser
*** IN REPLY TO THE FOLLOWING MAIL:
*** From: kruzewski
*** E-address: kruzewski@NTLWORLD.COM
*** Sent: 24/03/03 Time: 00:53
>Actually, the huge popularity of Portmeirion dinner ware always amazes me
>- and more so since I was given some by an elderly friend. Basically it's
>molded with transfer patterns - very pretty, very "English country", very
>expensive, but very much factory made. The price it costs, you would
>expect it to be very good quality. The truth is, it crazes. I have the tea
>pot that my friend, Dorothy, used when she had visitors, plus tea cups
>etc, they are crazed with tea stains in the crazes, that no bleach or any
>other cleaner can ever seem to remove. Worse still, the tea pot body
>(under the glaze) is brown, not white, having soaked up tea through the
>crazes in the glaze. Not very attractive at all. Yet still it sells by the
>ton.
*** THE MAIL FROM kruzewski ENDS HERE ***
**********************************************************************
TRUTH is too precious to tell every fool who asks for it...
****** This post was sent to you today by Janet Kaiser *******
The Chapel of Art / Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent, Criccieth LL52 0EA, Wales, UK
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 URL: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
**********************************************************************
kruzewski on tue 25 mar 03
Hi Janet - and everyone else out there,=20
You said:
"but because Portmeirion cannot be "mix and matched" with any other =
ware, people are stuck with either replacing like with like, or starting =
over again with something completely new. A production potter could do =
worse than learn from them IMHO."
I agree with your point totally. It is brilliant design and marketing, =
and we could all learn from it.=20
I don't know my "Portmeirion " history but I believe that the original =
designs at least were from a member of the Clough Williams-Ellis family =
and that originally they were made in Penrhyndaedreath (which, for those =
of you who are interested and don't know, is a village very close to the =
Portmeirion Italianate village). That may be why it continues to have an =
identity very closely linked with Portmeirion village. This is another =
selling point, locally, to the better healed tourists, at least.
My point was two-fold. Bearing in mind the occasional discussions we =
have about reactions to the "high price" we potters charge for articles =
such as mugs, the public will then pay a lot of money for what is =
essentially a mass produced product and not turn a hair. I would have to =
check, but, for instance, compared to the average price for a hand =
thrown mug, I think a Portmeirion mug is more expensive.=20
Secondly, given the price that is charged I would have imagined that the =
product would have been of better quality, in that the manufacturers, =
who are indeed a big name in Stoke, would have found a glaze for the =
dinner / drinks ware that did not craze so readily. I am very surprised =
that they have not. This is again bearing in mind the many posts on =
Clayart on formulating glazes when crazing, especially on ware for =
food/drinks use, is considered to be a big fault.=20
As for their crystal glazed dinner ware, the original subject of your =
post, it will be very interesting to see how it performs. On the bottom =
of one of the bowls it states that it is "Oven to table. Dishwasher, =
Microwave and Freezer Safe". I shall be testing!
I don't eschew "factory" produced dinnerware. I have my 25 year old =
Denby "Gypsey" dinner set on the Welsh dresser, used every Christmas, as =
well as dinner and tea sets by Midwinter (older) and a Portmeirion black =
and gold "Pheonix" coffee set. I love them all.
Jacqui
North Wales - about to "pop" down to Porthmadog Post office - and while =
I'm at it will see how much those Portmeirion mugs are! Trivia in =
difficult times!
Janet Kaiser on wed 26 mar 03
Hi Jacqui! Yes, it was Susan Williams-Ellis who "designed" the Portmeirion
ware. Being the daughter of Clough Williams-Ellis who built Portmeirion and
what we would call minor gentry, she had access to all those rare old
leather-bound naturalist books in the family library. Yes, it was
originally made in Penrhyndeudraeth, but production costs importing
materials and exporting the product, plus lack of a qualified or anything
like a remotely trainable labour force soon took them to Stoke-on-Trent
pretty quickly. Could have taken them to Asia by now... I don't know and I
bet they won't tell you that at the shop, even if they know! But
Portmeirion plc works hard at keeping the myth going that Portmeirion
pottery is still a "local Welsh" thing by association... "Corporate
identity" and all that.
As for quality issues... Don't forget we are an informed group here. The
general public are not. They (especially the long-suffering British public)
would not DREAM of taking back a crock which had crazed over time. They
just accept it as "normal". Everyone has antique plates - especially
transfer ware - which are crazed, so it is going to happen to anything
ceramic which is in use a long time, right? That is the general perception.
Indeed, it could be a badge of honour!? So the crazing issue is kept a low
priority not to say a non-issue by users and the makers are thankful. They
may not even be aware it is a problem. If they are, well I can take a guess
at why it is not being remedied apart from the cost involved in
reformulating a more stable glaze for this volume of production. Namely the
lack of really good alternatives to the old lead glazes used for production
transfer and white ware.
Now, I imagine (and this is pure speculation) that Portmeirion pottery is
produced in pretty old-fashioned premises and conditions, not some hi-tech
modern factory, so there are not going to be the facilities for testing and
all a change-over to new techniques, recipes, etc. would involve. They
probably even buy in some ready-formulated glaze to use... And on this
low-fired slip clay... Well, have you seen any good clear glazes elsewhere?
I certainly have not yet. They are all pretty feeble, but of course almost
all the potters I know avoid clear glazes these days. They are also firing
higher... Even cone 6 is probably higher than this factory ware. But it is
very interesting to speculate about... I wonder who would be able to
enlighten us?
I met a chap a couple of years ago who was researching a book on
Portmeirion Pottery which has since been published. I had his e-mail
somewhere... I must see if it was lost in my PC death last year or if it is
still retrievable. He may have looked at the production side of things too.
(Aside: His brother in New Zealand had a web site where you had to say
where various scenes from The Prisoner series were shot in North Wales...
Interesting exercise 30 years later! Who says the landscape never
changes?)
The price thing... Well, it is like I have often said... There is a high
price to pay for the "recognition factor". If people can name the brand at
sight, then it is quantifiable in monetary terms. In other words, when
keeping up with the Joneses, you have to know the exact "worth" of every
item. Now Mr. Jones does not have a problem with his Rolls Royce, because
everyone knows what that is "worth", but Mrs. Jones has to have something
Mrs. Lewis next door will recognise so valuation can be to the nearest =A31
$1 =A51 or =80uro 1 without anyone saying a word. What Mrs. Jones paid for
her dinning service is fine as long as everyone else recognises it, but who
is going to know if she bought off an unknown potter? Certainly not enough
people as far as Mrs. Jones is concerned... Therefore it is not an option.
Mrs. Jones will want a Rolls Royce of a dinning set and will get the most
expensive she can afford... But it HAS to be what everyone else will
recognise as a Rolls... See how the price keeps going up?
BTW did you know that Midwinter also has local associations? "The Matchbox"
house over in Porthdinllaen was their summer retreat. I used to go fishing
with the old man when I was a child. Only when he was sober though... And
that was not very often!
Nighty, nighty!
Janet - being bitten by mozzies... This should not be happening in March!
*** IN REPLY TO THE FOLLOWING MAIL:
*** From: kruzewski
*** E-address: kruzewski@NTLWORLD.COM
*** Sent: 25/03/03 Time: 12:20
>Hi Janet - and everyone else out there,
>You said:
>"but because Portmeirion cannot be "mix and matched" with any other ware,
>people are stuck with either replacing like with like, or starting over
>again with something completely new. A production potter could do worse
>than learn from them IMHO."
>
>I agree with your point totally. It is brilliant design and marketing, and
>we could all learn from it.
>I don't know my "Portmeirion " history but I believe that the original
>designs at least were from a member of the Clough Williams-Ellis family
>and that originally they were made in Penrhyndaedreath (which, for those
>of you who are interested and don't know, is a village very close to the
>Portmeirion Italianate village). That may be why it continues to have an
>identity very closely linked with Portmeirion village. This is another
>selling point, locally, to the better healed tourists, at least.
>My point was two-fold. Bearing in mind the occasional discussions we have
>about reactions to the "high price" we potters charge for articles such as
>mugs, the public will then pay a lot of money for what is essentially a
>mass produced product and not turn a hair. I would have to check, but, for
>instance, compared to the average price for a hand thrown mug, I think a
>Portmeirion mug is more expensive.
>Secondly, given the price that is charged I would have imagined that the
>product would have been of better quality, in that the manufacturers, who
>are indeed a big name in Stoke, would have found a glaze for the dinner /
>drinks ware that did not craze so readily. I am very surprised that they
>have not. This is again bearing in mind the many posts on Clayart on
>formulating glazes when crazing, especially on ware for food/drinks use,
>is considered to be a big fault.
>As for their crystal glazed dinner ware, the original subject of your
>post, it will be very interesting to see how it performs. On the bottom of
>one of the bowls it states that it is "Oven to table. Dishwasher,
>Microwave and Freezer Safe". I shall be testing!
>I don't eschew "factory" produced dinnerware. I have my 25 year old Denby
>"Gypsey" dinner set on the Welsh dresser, used every Christmas, as well as
>dinner and tea sets by Midwinter (older) and a Portmeirion black and gold
>"Pheonix" coffee set. I love them all.
>
>Jacqui
>North Wales - about to "pop" down to Porthmadog Post office - and while
>I'm at it will see how much those Portmeirion mugs are! Trivia in
>difficult times!
*** THE MAIL FROM kruzewski ENDS HERE ***
**********************************************************************
TRUTH is too precious to tell every fool who asks for it...
****** This post was sent to you today by Janet Kaiser *******
The Chapel of Art / Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent, Criccieth LL52 0EA, Wales, UK
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 URL: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
**********************************************************************
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