Janet Kaiser on fri 9 may 03
The Ceramic Art Discussion List, or what we fondly call "Clay Art" or
"Clayart", is like a thriving village which inspires the need in many to
give and share. It was this urge which inspired SUCAWS... A place for
exchange of images which we cannot do on-line (however often poor "Saludos
George" in Cuba tries), as well as a service for those potters who do not
have their own site yet, for whatever reason. Russel Fouts was similarly
moved, Chris Shafale has recently created an on-line gallery of work by
Clayarters, Helen Bates maintains a list of URLs for those with their own
pages or sites... Each is contributing to the Clay Art experience and I am
sure there will be others like Belinda who rush in with their sleeves
rolled up wanting make work even more accessible amongst ourselves, as well
as to the wider Internet audience.
However, it is not something to be undertaken lightly, nor should anyone
underestimate the time and effort involved in not only setting up a site,
but keeping it up to date. As a matter of interest, Belinda, how do you
propose to host a site for Clayarters, if you do not have the necessary
time to research one small item such as web space hosting? It does not
auger well for your future sanity! You may have to exchange 10-20 e-mails
with each potter before you sort out the text, the images and so on for
each individual page. It will involve image editing in addition to that, as
most people do not seem to have suitable programmes such as PhotoShop and
cannot produce "web ready" images. Are you also going to expect payment
from individuals for your time developing the site, as well as sharing the
hosting costs? And have you checked with acers it is OK to use the Clay Art
name in association with the list? You see, there is so much which needs
careful consideration beforehand.
Am I also right in thinking this will be your first web site? If so, I
suggest you would be better designing and setting up a small site on a
freebie server and taking it from there... People will then be able to see
what you are offering, whether a simple page or an all bells-and-whistles
experience. To expect fellow Clayarters to enthusiastically participate and
part with their hard-earned cash without a look-see first is perhaps a
little optimistic? Nor do you want to create the impression you are
developing your own site at the cost of others, do you?
Above all it is easy to over-estimate how many will want to participate.
Most professionals have their own web pages for information and/or as a
retailing tool. Those who do not, are very wary of being associated with
other work which is not of a minimum standard, so a shared site is not
their cup of tea. There is also a surprising lack of good images amongst
artists and makers! This is not confined to Clayart... The cost of printed
matter in the past and the lack of training in business skills, still
influences choices on spending what is almost always a limited promotional
budget and photos shot to professional standards remain quite a rarity.
Matters are gradually improving as awareness increases about how essential
they are for advertising and promotion, but in other words, do not expect
zillions of wonderful shots of pots.
Yes, "fools rush in where angels fear to tread". As an old fool, I would
advise a cautious start and build on it slowly. BTW Had you not been as
dismissive of SUCAWS as you were, I would have gladly handed it over to you
to continue and develop.
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser
**********************************************************************
TRUTH is too precious to tell every fool who asks for it...
****** This post was sent to you today by Janet Kaiser *******
The Chapel of Art / Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent, Criccieth LL52 0EA, Wales, UK
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 URL: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
**********************************************************************
Belinda Willis on sat 10 may 03
Hi again, Janet,
After posting my last email to you, I saw this long post you sent in
warning about my willingness to do a website. I appreciate your concerns
about me taking on more than I realize and admit you are probably right.
You've done the open website format, you have experience and you know what
you're talking about. And yes, I'm no doubt unrealistically optimistic
about it. I only wish you had sent the post to me directly rather than post
it to the ClayArt board. Conducting this exchange in public seems
unnecessary and it certainly is awkward.
Just for the heck of it tho, where I can address specific comments, I will
and we'll see what the end conclusion will be. Keep in mind, I'm still in
an investigative mode here and you, others and even I could talk myself out
of the whole thing.
>have you checked with acers it is OK to use the
>Clay Art name in association with the list
I was specifically going to NOT use the word "ClayArt" in the name and I
never considered using "Acers." I probably adequately covered that topic
in the earlier email that is posted under the "Re: Clay Art Potter's
website...you interested??" heading.
>Am I also right in thinking this will be your first web site?
It is not my first website. Please see www.bayarearetrofit.com to see my
first website. And please look thru several pages of that site before
drawing any conclusions.
>you would be better designing and setting up a small site ... People will
>then be able to see what you are offering, whether a simple page or an
>all bells-and-whistles experience. To expect fellow Clayarters to
>enthusiastically participate and part with their hard-earned cash
>without a look-see first is perhaps a little optimistic?
I agree with you. If I do this, it will be with the few people that have
embraced the idea and others can judge from that. However, there have been
a few that contacted me who are indeed enthusiastic about the venture and
have offered to help cover costs even if I opt to do it for free...which at
this point I don't intend to do. Again, see my post under the original
heading.
>Nor do you want to create the impression you are
>developing your own site at the cost of others, do you?
As stated in the previous post, this will not be my personal website. I
intend to be one of several potters on the new site with a page just like
everyone else's page. I can see where you might assume this is the case
however since it is the way others have been able to offer website space.
Its been very kind of others to do this but it's not my intention.
>Above all it is easy to over-estimate how many will want to participate.
To tell you the true, Janet, I don't think I'm anticipating any particular
number of participants but I can easily see where one might over estimate
ALL aspects of a venture such as this. Its a point well made.
>There is also a surprising lack of good images amongst
>artists and makers!
I have considered this but with digital cameras being so inexpensive now-a-
days and with so many people having them, I thought it would not be too
much of a problem. I may be very wrong here. I've been quite impressed,
however, with the photos sent in to Chris's site.
>I would advise a cautious start
>and build on it slowly.
Excellent advise and I will try to follow it.
>BTW Had you not been as dismissive of SUCAWS
>as you were, I would have gladly handed it over to you
>to continue and develop.
Ahhh, now the one sentence of your post that stung. I apologize if I have
appeared to dismiss your website. Hopefully after reading the posting I
sent earlier you realize I never saw the ClayArt potters' section of your
website until today. Call me stupid but I never saw it. I call it poor
design on your part for putting the individual potters so far down the
contents page (#12??) when, in my opinion, that section should have been
the first part of the site. But after surfing the site today, I assumed
you built it in stages and constructed it as you went along. Its a nice
site as I'm sure you know.
And now my comment to you.......if you had contacted me off the list,
offering to "hand over" the SUCAWS site, I would have considered it a
wonderful honor and would have been delighted to relieve you of the
chore...which I'm sure such a website can become. But you never made such
an offer to me. Instead you assumed the worst and aired what to me is
becoming dirty laundry in the public eye. As much as I wish it wasn't
true, I find myself resenting it. I'm not angry, just peeved. And a
little hurt. I've done nothing but offer something of potential benefit to
others. If it doesn't work, so what?
So I will continue investigating a website that will feature folks from the
ClayArt site. It may happen, it may not. I merely put the idea out on the
list and asked what people thought of it. Enough people have given good
feedback to keep me working on it.
I continue to welcome all ideas and suggestions.
Belinda
Ababi on sat 10 may 03
answer#2
To be honest with Janet and many of you, It is hard for me to read long letters.
Because of this reasons I delete may long letters even if the subjects is very
intersting-unless these are personal letters. In the last case I take all the time in the
world to read and answer- sometime a month later.
Hi Belinda again. I will write into your answer to Janet. I shall do it with capital letters to
avoid a too big mass.
---------- Original Message ----------
>Hi again, Janet,
>about it. I only wish you had sent the post to me directly rather than post
>it to the ClayArt board. Conducting this exchange in public seems
>unnecessary and it certainly is awkward.
I THINK JANET WAS RIGHT TO ANSWER TO THE LIST. YOU OFFERED TO THE
LIST AND THE ANSWER CAME IN THE SAME WAY. JANET ANSWER MIGHT
REFLECT THE FEELING OF OTHER ONES THAT CANNOT FIND THE RIGHT
WORDS.
>>have you checked with acers it is OK to use the
>>Clay Art name in association with the list
>I was specifically going to NOT use the word "ClayArt" in the name and I
>never considered using "Acers." I probably adequately covered that topic
>in the earlier email that is posted under the "Re: Clay Art Potter's
>website...you interested??" heading.
IF IT WAS NOT A CLAYART SITE SO WHAT WAS YOUR OFFER? WAS IT
ANOTHER WAY TO SELL A SITE?
>>Am I also right in thinking this will be your first web site?
>It is not my first website. Please see www.bayarearetrofit.com to see my
>first website. And please look thru several pages of that site before
>drawing any conclusions.
I LOVED THE PICTURE OF THE OLD HUT IN YOUR WEBSITE. THIS IS KIND OF
HUTS I LIKED TO PAINT - BUT WHAT DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH CERAMICS?
>
>I continue to welcome all ideas and suggestions.
>Belinda
THE BEST ADVISE IS TO READ YOUR WORDS TWICE BEFORE CLICKING ON
THE SEND DO IT THREE TIMES BECAUSE OF THE LANGUGE PROBLEMS.
ABABI SHARON
If I was too sharp sorry
Belinda Willis on sat 10 may 03
answer#2
Let me start off by saying that you, Ababi, are one of my internet heros.
I have great respect for the open manner in which you share so much of
yourself and your work. You in part have inspired me to investigate this
website venture.
>I THINK JANET WAS RIGHT TO ANSWER TO
>THE LIST. YOU OFFERED TO THE
>LIST AND THE ANSWER CAME IN THE
>SAME WAY. JANET ANSWER MIGHT
>REFLECT THE FEELING OF OTHER ONES
>THAT CANNOT FIND THE RIGHT WORDS.
I love the tightness in this group with its eagerness to support and defend
one another. You make a good point except... to offer something to the
people using the list, the only way to do it is by posting ON the list.
Many people contacted me about the proposed website OFF the list, but I
understand what you mean. Plus I find I appreciate Janet's posting to the
list since it gave me a chance to explain more of what I have in mind. I
only see what I'm offering, I can't see how its flawed. If I welcome all
ideas and suggestions, I have to be prepared for the warnings and the
negative comments too. They are possibly even more important than the
encouraging support.
>IF IT WAS NOT A CLAYART SITE
>SO WHAT WAS YOUR OFFER? WAS IT
>ANOTHER WAY TO SELL A SITE?
Ah, come on, Ababi. You admit you haven't read the long posts. The answer
to your question is already been stated. No I'm not selling anything.
>I LOVED THE PICTURE OF THE OLD HUT
>IN YOUR WEBSITE. THIS IS KIND OF
>HUTS I LIKED TO PAINT - BUT WHAT
>DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH CERAMICS?
That first website is about earthquake retrofitting. It has nothing to do
with ceramics. It was my first website, that's all. But it does show the
quality of work I do.
>THE BEST ADVISE IS TO READ YOUR WORDS TWICE
>BEFORE CLICKING ON THE SEND
No kidding!! That=92s some of the best advise anyone can give or receive whe=
n
dealing with email correspondence. We've all been burned by words that were
read and perceived to mean something vastly different than what we intended
to convey. And when it happens, the wisest thing is to make the correction
and apologize immediately.
And speaking of email correspondence, I'm stopping mine. These exchanges
are sapping me of energy I can best put elsewhere. I will continue to move
towards a website such as the one envisioned. It is not intended to
replace or supersede any existing sites. Its just another website of
potter's work. The internet is a big place and there is room for all.
If this site actually materalizes, I hope you, Ababi, will have a page.
Belinda
Janet Kaiser on sun 11 may 03
And I tried so hard to pussy-foot around, using suitably diplomatic
language. Damn! Just goes to show how poor I am at that sort of thing, but
it is good to know I am not alone at the bottom of the class when it comes
to diplomacy.
So back to straight talking, which I find infinitely preferable: Peeved?
Yes Belinda, quite a few were, but then again it is not an unusual reaction
to crass comment, however unthinking or unintentional. To belittle the
work of others does not exactly extend the hand of friendship and
co-operation, let alone make friends and influence people. To expect no
defensive response from those who felt unjustly belittled is utterly naive.
Having thought out loud on-line, the response will be equally public. That
is the way it works.
Yes, it is a great shame you did not do some even more thorough, basic
"market research" on what is already available within this long-standing
community before wading in. Had you done so, it would have saved a lot of
hurt feelings and sore toes. FYI each time someone comes up with a "new"
idea along these lines, I immediately offer SUCAWS to them, because I do
not see how more and more sites serving the same audience and with
basically the same purpose is ultimately beneficial. They then tactfully
explain that they have their own and very different concepts of what they
want to do and how they wish to achieve their own contribution to the
Clayart community. Which is fine. We can each appreciate the other's
position and continue amicably on our merry ways. Certainly without rancour
and definitely without going on to give detailed personal commentary and
unsolicited "advice" about other sites, how badly they are designed, how
disorganised, how poorly developed, how they are only fun or personal
sites, how hidden various pages are, how difficult they are (for you) to
navigate and so on.
So they are nothing like what you plan? Fair enough, it would be remarkable
if they were, but your high-handed manner and dismissive tone was totally
unnecessary. If you do not understand or realise how out of order all that
was, I am very sorry for you... It must get very lonely up there all alone.
However, I have absolutely no wish to embroil myself or anyone else in any
sort of contretemps over what is really a non-issue. Please consider the
subject closed as far as I am concerned. I wish you every success with the
brilliant new site you have in mind -- you obviously have clear visions of
what you want to do and the necessary balls to carry through. Far from
wanting to discourage you, I have yet to see the "perfect" site anywhere on
the Internet and will await the results with great interest. It is sure to
be very enlightening to all the other idiot site developers like me, who
have simply missed finding what is equally logical for every web site
visitor in the world. Quite a break-through!
I shall, however, continue to look for someone who is able and willing to
take over SUCAWS to develop as they see fit, but retaining the spirit in
which it was conceived: a simple but diverse international resource for the
free use of everyone. Not an exclusive site where only those with $ cheque
books are admitted. Now it appears I shall also have to seek someone who is
familiar with the concept of an alphabetical index page... A for
Aesthetics, B for Books, C for Contacts, D for Design... Let's see... Right
down to P... Humm... I suppose "Personal Pages: SUCAWS shows Clayarters and
their work" does require minimal reading & comprehension skills, but I will
continue to presume the majority of users do indeed read English, can use a
simple index and are not accessing a site merely to click on buttons to
view images to the exclusion of all else.
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser
**********************************************************************
TRUTH is too precious to tell every fool who asks for it...
****** This post was sent to you today by Janet Kaiser *******
The Chapel of Art / Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent, Criccieth LL52 0EA, Wales, UK
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 URL: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
**********************************************************************
| |
|
