Jan Goodland Metz on mon 28 jul 03
Clayarters, I have a problem with a friend and would like some impute on
how to deal with the situation.
Myself and 2 other friends have been woodfiring together at another
woman's kiln for about a year. I've been firing there for 3 years. It
has been a great experience.
It started out loosely, we were helping our kiln host as she would have
large projects to fire (murals) and she needed pots to fill out the kiln
as a kiln full of tiles is really very tight. Some projects went on for
10 or more firings.
Sometimes my friends and I would just fire ourselves with our pots and a
few pieces for the murals. There wasn't a set policy about fees. I would
ask my friends to donate a small amount for materials for the firings,
$20-60 depending on the number of pots they were firing, suggested $2
per pot or if they were planning on selling the work, to figure out what
they planned on pricing and figure a percentage of the cost as a firing
fee, I was doing 10%. There was a large pitcher in the studio to put
the money.
It was all loose and I didn't keep track. My friend whose kiln it is,
spoke to me at the end of the last firing that I was the only one paying
on a regular basis, that I worked hard and paid her, one other person
was working for her a lot paid her and she really appreciated it, and
the third wasn't paying anything and worked hard "when she was there".
That it was an awkward situation and that she thought a firing fee might
put everyone on equal footing. I agreed, she suggested $1 per pound of
bisqed glazed ware. I suggested this also include a work day before the
firing, that everyone be there for loading, unloading and the firing.
(the third person wasn't coming to the loading and unloading) This was
all fine with our host, and I thought it was extremely cheap and reasonable.
So I talked with my 2 other friends, the hard worker said "sure no
problem, this sounds great", the other woman is putting up a stink, and
thinks that firing the tiles is all that we should do and not pay any
money, that she is being taken advantage of. (this person has plenty of
cash and income, $40 bucks wouldn't even come close to breaking her,
paid cash for the new car.)
We fired this weekend, and what she did was bring our kiln host a book
instead of paying her cash, I confronted her and she wouldn't discuss
the firing fee and weighing her pots. So for the next firing I'm going
to weigh her pots and hand her a bill, and tell her to pay before the
pots go in the kiln, that it is studio policy and no bartering. Our kiln
host is trying to survive on her clay work, and her kiln is a resource
for her.
Any thougths?
Jan, in woodfiring heaven
psci_kw on mon 28 jul 03
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan Goodland Metz"
To:
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 1:22 PM
Subject: Firing Fees
We fired this weekend, and what she did was bring our kiln host a book
> instead of paying her cash, I confronted her and she wouldn't discuss
> the firing fee and weighing her pots. So for the next firing I'm going
> to weigh her pots and hand her a bill, and tell her to pay before the
> pots go in the kiln, that it is studio policy and no bartering. Our kiln
> host is trying to survive on her clay work, and her kiln is a resource
> for her.
>
>
> Any thougths?
Said it before, I'll say it again. If you wanna dance to the music, ya
gotta pay the piper. Your fees are more than reasonable, considering the
cost of energy (fuel) and labor e.g. loading, stoking (if wood) and
unloading going into it.
Here, if a person wants to fire at the local community college, it's $390
and change for the semester, AND you have to use ONLY their clay (which
helps eliminate things exploding due to variations in people's wedging, I
guess) and wait until there's a kilnful.
A buck a pound? Wish I lived closer to you!
Wayne in Key West
Linda Reynen on mon 28 jul 03
Jan,
Your system of fees is more than fair, and you have been very forgiving and gracious up to this point. Tell her to take her business elsewhere. I only wish I knew where to get something fired for that bargain price here in NY. I say put up a flyer or an online ad and find a new cooperative third artist who won't try to take advantage of the situation!
(My 2 cents)
Linda
Kenneth D. Westfall on mon 28 jul 03
>Price per pound alway seem to be a equitable way of sharing the cost or
>firing. Sound like its time for someone to move on and start firing some
>place else. Cost of firing is not just the fuel that goes into the kiln
>but wear and tear, wad clay and time. Sooner or later the kiln need
>replaced and the bartered book aint going to pay for more bricks.
Kenneth D. Westfall
Pine Hill Pottery
R.D. #2 Box 6AA
Harrisville, WV 26362
kenneth@pinehillpottery.com
http://www.pinehillpottery.com
Mike Carroll on mon 28 jul 03
--- Jan Goodland Metz wrote:
> Clayarters, I have a problem with a friend and would
> like some impute on
> how to deal with the situation.
> We fired this weekend, and what she did was bring
> our kiln host a book
> instead of paying her cash, I confronted her and she
> wouldn't discuss
> the firing fee and weighing her pots. So for the
> next firing I'm going
> to weigh her pots and hand her a bill, and tell her
> to pay before the
> pots go in the kiln, that it is studio policy and no
> bartering. Our kiln
> host is trying to survive on her clay work, and her
> kiln is a resource
> for her.
>
>
> Any thougths?
Yeah, give her a size 10 where she sits and apparently
centers her thinking process. My kiln, stuffed, holds
150 pots. If I rent it out it COSTS me $325 to fire
it. For a workshop I will bill another $225 for me to
load it and manage the firing, which is not much more
than I would make at a fast food place for similar
hours. I try to sneak a few pots into those firings.
Your friend obviously does not get it; split the wood,
stack the wood, wash the shelves, wad the pots, load
the kiln, brick the door(s), candle the firing, split
some more, stoke the kiln, stoke the
kiln,.........stoke the kiln, close it down, mud the
openings, cleanup the kiln area, try not to fall down
in the shower, wait 4/5 days, unbrick the doors, cry a
little, laugh a little, love a lot, scrape the shelves
and you are ready to make the next mug to start this
labor of love again....you sound VERY reasonable and
she sounds quite ungrateful.
ps, Linda, I am in NY, where are you?
Mike
__________________________________
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Chris Rupp on mon 28 jul 03
Hello Jan,
Sounds like a good opportunity gone bad! I would give my left arm to be able
to do some wood firing right now. I could still throw right handed I
think...I am involved in some salt firing with a friend who owns the kiln.
We each use approximately half of the total kiln space and before we ever
started firing together we laid out exactly how much the cost of a firing is
and I pay half, as well as doing half the work. I am more than willing to
put in the time scraping shelves, fixing the kiln, and paying my fee to be
able to have the opportunity to salt fire.
It sounds to me like at least one of your friends does not recognize what an
opportunity they have, at an EXCELLENT price no less, and maybe they will
appreciate what they when they don't have it any more. Let them see if they
can find someone else to fire with and see if they can get into situation
that is anywhere near as good as the one you have going. Sounds to me like
they don't have enough appreciation for the opportunity they have been
given. Say good bye....Good luck.
Chris
Sunny Santa Barbara
>From: Jan Goodland Metz
>Reply-To: Clayart
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Firing Fees
>Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:22:41 -0500
>
>Clayarters, I have a problem with a friend and would like some impute on
>how to deal with the situation.
>
>Myself and 2 other friends have been woodfiring together at another
>woman's kiln for about a year. I've been firing there for 3 years. It
>has been a great experience.
>
>It started out loosely, we were helping our kiln host as she would have
>large projects to fire (murals) and she needed pots to fill out the kiln
>as a kiln full of tiles is really very tight. Some projects went on for
>10 or more firings.
>
>Sometimes my friends and I would just fire ourselves with our pots and a
>few pieces for the murals. There wasn't a set policy about fees. I would
>ask my friends to donate a small amount for materials for the firings,
>$20-60 depending on the number of pots they were firing, suggested $2
>per pot or if they were planning on selling the work, to figure out what
>they planned on pricing and figure a percentage of the cost as a firing
>fee, I was doing 10%. There was a large pitcher in the studio to put
>the money.
>
>It was all loose and I didn't keep track. My friend whose kiln it is,
>spoke to me at the end of the last firing that I was the only one paying
>on a regular basis, that I worked hard and paid her, one other person
>was working for her a lot paid her and she really appreciated it, and
>the third wasn't paying anything and worked hard "when she was there".
>That it was an awkward situation and that she thought a firing fee might
>put everyone on equal footing. I agreed, she suggested $1 per pound of
>bisqed glazed ware. I suggested this also include a work day before the
>firing, that everyone be there for loading, unloading and the firing.
>(the third person wasn't coming to the loading and unloading) This was
>all fine with our host, and I thought it was extremely cheap and
>reasonable.
>
>So I talked with my 2 other friends, the hard worker said "sure no
>problem, this sounds great", the other woman is putting up a stink, and
>thinks that firing the tiles is all that we should do and not pay any
>money, that she is being taken advantage of. (this person has plenty of
>cash and income, $40 bucks wouldn't even come close to breaking her,
>paid cash for the new car.)
>
>We fired this weekend, and what she did was bring our kiln host a book
>instead of paying her cash, I confronted her and she wouldn't discuss
>the firing fee and weighing her pots. So for the next firing I'm going
>to weigh her pots and hand her a bill, and tell her to pay before the
>pots go in the kiln, that it is studio policy and no bartering. Our kiln
>host is trying to survive on her clay work, and her kiln is a resource
>for her.
>
>
>Any thougths?
>
>Jan, in woodfiring heaven
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________
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Cindy Gatto on mon 28 jul 03
Dear Jan:
I think that what you are imposing is completely fair. Tell her that
this is studio policy from now on and if she does not like it she is going to
have to find a new place to fire her wares. Please if you are anywhere near the
NYC area let us know we would love the chance to woodfire at those prices.
Please if you would have us also.
Thanks:
Cindy & Mark
The Mudpit
228 Manhattan Ave
Brooklyn, NY 11206
718-218-9424
mudpitnyc@aol.com
www.mudpitnyc.com
Elzbieta Sekula on mon 28 jul 03
Jan,
You have no other choice and she seems to be the one who has brought all of
this on. Don't be bullied or you all might lose your great set up.
Elzbieta
In a message dated 7/28/03 4:07:34 PM Central Daylight Time, metzj@SALVE.EDU
writes:
> We fired this weekend, and what she did was bring our kiln host a book
> instead of paying her cash, I confronted her and she wouldn't discuss
> the firing fee and weighing her pots. So for the next firing I'm going
> to weigh her pots and hand her a bill, and tell her to pay before the
> pots go in the kiln, that it is studio policy and no bartering. Our kiln
> host is trying to survive on her clay work, and her kiln is a resource
> for her.
>
Elizabeth Herod on mon 28 jul 03
Jan--
I don=B9t know where you are, but I wish you were close to where I live,
(Southwestern CT).
I would gladly pay the fees and help with the loading and unloading.
What a fair exchange.
I do know how it feels to do a lot of the work. At many of our raku firings=
,
I am often there early, helping with the glazes, and then often am one of
the few who will =B3pick=B2. Everyone has an excuse not to pick. It seems to
me after about 3 or 4 raku firings, people should have learned. And, if
they are not willing to help, then perhaps they shouldn=B9t be doing it.
My other pet peeve is the one who leaves early and never stays to help clea=
n
up.
Beth=20
Jan L. Peterson on mon 28 jul 03
Also comes late to avoid setting up. Beth, CT is Connecticut? I've lived near
or on the West Coast all my life. Sometimes I'm amazed there is another sea.
How it must be to have a seacoast on the east side of you. I've seen pictures
of the Fall out that way, and read some books with good descriptions. Must be
close to ideally. Jan
Lily Krakowski on tue 29 jul 03
It was Lady Mendl, I think, who first said that the only thing better than
owning a yacht is to have friends who own a yacht.
Ditto for a wood burning kiln.
The kiln owner not only built the kiln, maintains the kiln, pays the taxes
on the building and land etc. the kiln owner is the one responsible for the
wood being there, the "rain date", shelf maintenance and whatnot.
She even is the one who provides water and electricity, and a bathroom, and
tweezers and bandaids for splinters, etc.
So to refer to Mme Leech as "a friend" makes me wonder; what do you gulls
call an enemy? Had I been Kiln Owner I would have tossed the book into the
firebox.
A lot depends on what you want to do about the RELATIONSHIP. Suggestion
One: Make up a list of fair costs: so much for kiln maintenance, so much for
wood, so much for shelf maintenance and so on. Sit down with Mme Leech--ALL
of you, kiln owner included-- and say point blank: with us or OUT.
She is NOT doing you a favor firing with you. I bet that a tiny peep on
Clayart would bring six replacements.
Suggestion Two: Taking list of fair costs divide by all of you and assess
that amount monthly,BEFORE ANY POTS ARE BROUGHT, FIRED, ETC. In other words
unless the check is on the table (not in the mail!) NOT a pot goes in the
kiln. Call it membership fee.
The problem with assessing just by firing space or weight is that a/ the
maintenance of the kiln and ancellary costs remain, pots or no pots. Wood
costs money; shelves cost money etc. b/ Why should I who am making, lettuce
say, small clunky heavy doorstop type sculptures, pay more than you who is
making gorgeous paperthin but very big bowls? I have yet to see potters
agree on this....
The problem with workdays is that they are a bit iffy. What would happen to
someone like me who cannot do the heavy work I used to do? What happens to
one of you if you put your back out, or you have a patient at home or
whatever? Perhaps some of the $ could be assigned in lieu of workdays and a
money-hungry teenager hired?
Lili Krakowski
P.O. Box #1
Constableville, N.Y.
(315) 942-5916/ 397-2389
Be of good courage....
Jan Goodland Metz on tue 29 jul 03
Thanks, there are several other artists here who are asking to fire with
us. yes, it is a very generous person who has the kiln and appreciates
our help.
Linda Reynen wrote:
>Jan,
>
>Your system of fees is more than fair, and you have been very forgiving and gracious up to this point. Tell her to take her business elsewhere. I only wish I knew where to get something fired for that bargain price here in NY. I say put up a flyer or an online ad and find a new cooperative third artist who won't try to take advantage of the situation!
>
>(My 2 cents)
>Linda
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
Jan Goodland Metz on tue 29 jul 03
It was Lady Mendl, I think, who first said that the only thing better than
owning a yacht is to have friends who own a yacht.
Ditto for a wood burning kiln.
A lot depends on what you want to do about the RELATIONSHIP. Suggestion
One: Make up a list of fair costs: so much for kiln maintenance, so much for
wood, so much for shelf maintenance and so on. Sit down with Mme Leech--ALL
of you, kiln owner included-- and say point blank: with us or OUT.
She is NOT doing you a favor firing with you.>
Lily,
It has been a loose arrangement which needs to be spelled out. My
"friend" thinks she is the one being taken advantage of, which i don't
understand.
The fee came about by the pound because there are students who use the
studio clay, so the more you use, the more you pay. And that price is
higher than ours as we are using our own clay. But we needed something
simple that would put us all on the same footing.
The wood is free for the hauling, that is how we get the wood. The work
days are flexible, you just help out when you can. We try to have a
shelf cleaning, wood stacking day the week before the firing.
Sometimes a friendship starts out in a place and evolves into a working
situation and you find that this isn't someone you can "work" with but
still is person you like to do some things with. Not every friend is the
"incredible-all-around-person" that you like completely in every
situation. That's another miracle. I'm sure you know wood firing is a
round the clock process when the glazing starts on Friday (start loading
hopeful), then load on Saturday and start the fire as soon as the
loading is done and THEN go for 18-24 hours sleeping in shifts. (we also
have full time jobs "off the farm").
The membership fee is a good idea. She does work hard when she is there.
But I think she is thinking that she is firing other people's work and
so she shouldn't have to pay money. This all started 2 firings ago when
she decided that she wanted a guaranteed space and location in this
rather small kiln. The work (size shape) fluctuates with each firing and
we pack it as tight as is reasonable, but there are always pieces that
are left over and she didn't like glazing work and not having it get in.
This is when the communication seemed to break down. At that point I
told her there were no guarantees in woodfiring, and she needed to be
more flexible. So there is some history besides the fee and I think you
are right in saying it is time for her to pay the piper or find another
firing arrangement.
thanks for you thoughts,
Jan
Paul Herman on tue 29 jul 03
Greetings Jan, and All Wood-lunatics,
Jan, sounds like your "Yacht Owner" is a real sweetheart.
Communal firings pose difficulties. Finding a competent and agreeable
Firing Crew is an Art project in itsself. There are people who don't
understand, and you just have to ease them out of the deal. It can be
awkward and painful.
Emotions run high around these damn woodkilns, and there is so much work
at stake. When we unloaded in April it almost killed me, but after a
couple of weeks I decided that it was a good firing after all. It just
was full of unexpected surprises. My current theory is that with the
brash decision to burn a ton or so of Poplar in there, it got real gooey
and runny.
As the job of Kiln Boss has fallen to me, (the Thing is built in my
yard) I have to decide who is an appropriate crew member. I've had to
ease a couple out, and it's hard but inevitable. I also get to do most
of the woodcutting. (bg) Note: last firing half of the fuel was
industrial scrap, diverted from the landfill.
In the future, I'd like to build a small wood burning kiln that can be
fired in a day. Perhaps a wood/doughnut oil hybrid. NEVER abandon the
big one, I love it too much. There is something to the adage that, in
woodfiring, longer firings are better. Crews bring along their own
unique personalities. You all know that Artists are a bunch of
weird-ohs, right? Why do I like weird-ohs? Maybe I'm insane?
Good Culling,
Paul Herman
Great Basin Pottery
423-725 Scott Road
Doyle, California 96109 US
potter@psln.com
----------
>From: Jan Goodland Metz
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: firing fees
>Date: Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 9:55 AM
>
> But I think she is thinking that she is firing other people's work and
> so she shouldn't have to pay money. This all started 2 firings ago when
> she decided that she wanted a guaranteed space and location in this
> rather small kiln. The work (size shape) fluctuates with each firing and
> we pack it as tight as is reasonable, but there are always pieces that
> are left over and she didn't like glazing work and not having it get in.
> This is when the communication seemed to break down.
John Baymore on wed 30 jul 03
It was Lady Mendl, I think, who first said that the only thing better tha=
n
owning a yacht is to have friends who own a yacht.
Ditto for a wood burning kiln.
Lili made some great points and suggestions in her post about this subjec=
t.
The whole thing deserves a good read if you missed it.
One addition to her thoughts..........
When I talk to clients who are in coops or in group kiln situations, I fi=
nd
I often have to remind them about ALSO building into the "fee" that is
calculated for a firing charge...... for the replacement costs of the kil=
n
itself. NOT what it cost to build the kiln in the first place..... but
what it WILL cost in the FUTURE to replace it. And to take inflation and=
soaring materials costs into account. Every firing takes a piece of life=
off the kiln. Eventually the unit will have to be replaced. You should
come up with SOME sort of plan so that sitting in the bank there will be
the replacement cost of the kiln when it finally reaches the point where =
it
has outlived its uslfulness. Otherwise you will have to suddenly come up=
witrh a big stack of ready liquid cash....or take out a loan.... to rebui=
ld
the kiln. When you plan the final $ number and timeframe...... you likel=
y
want to err a little on the side where you will have too much money too
soon. Much nicer than too little, too late .
This is true of ANY type of kiln...... wood, gas, oil, or electric.
Yes, you should already be depreciating the cost to build the unit to sta=
rt
with if you are in this as a business. So that "little bit of kiln life"=
that gets used up each firing is fully tax deductable . But that
deduction doesn't set you up for handling the replacement costs.
There is no magic formula for determining this. At best it is an educate=
d
guess . The life of a particular kiln is dictated by a LOT of factors=
which include such things as how well the refractories were selected for
the job in the first place, what type of firing the kiln is subject to, W=
HO
is actually firing it, how often it is fired a week,/month/year, how well=
routine maintenence is done, and so on. But you really should make an
attempt.
You also should be looking at the life taken off the kiln furniture with
each firing. Shelves and posts are not forever...... particularly in a
wood kiln.
When these kinds of realistic amounts are factored in....... with some
kilns it can REALLY add a lot to the "per firing" cost. When I look at m=
y
20 + year old five chamber (4 + dogi) noborigama
........ full replacement would involve a sizable mortgage if I didn't pl=
an
for it. =
There is one interesting factor here that HAS to be considered a bit in
this whole arrangement. That is if the kiln owner themselves is not
capable of firing his/her own work in that particular kiln by him/herself=
. =
In other words if the person is absolutely DEPENDENT upon the labor of
OTHERS to make it possible to fire his or her own work at all. If that i=
s
true.... then there is some GREAT value to the labor provided by those
other people to fire the kiln load of mixed work. If the owner did not
have them......... none of his/her works would get fired at all. In that=
sense........ he/she would have to HIRE kiln firers (probably have to
import them from Japan ) if these people were not present to assist. =
So
we get back to that discussion of what people's time is worth............=
.
and an unskilled burger flipper can get about $8-10 an hour these days. =
So
those hours of "free" labor are worth a LOT of money to the kiln owner.
The value of this time has to be factrored into the equation.
And if this "can't fire it alone" idea is true
, it would often work out that the kiln owner takes a bigger "bite" out o=
f
the overall expenses per firing.
I think a frank group discussion about this whole topic is in order. Kee=
p
the focus broadbased and not directed AT the reluctant individual, but at=
the kiln situation itself. Have the wood kiln owner sort of initiate the=
thing by discussing the necessary up coming repairs and maintenence and
such of the kiln. Then gently steer the conversation to setting up very
specific and detailed itemization of all the costs involved in running an=
d
replacing this kiln and furniture. Then steer it to coming up with a
realistic payment situation that requires payment in ADVANCE. Have the
kiln owner be apologetic as hell about having to do this........ but mak=
e
it clear that he/she kinda' got hit with a "reality burger...... hold the=
ketchup".....and wants to plan for the future. Then the freeloading pers=
on
can opt in or out.
I say it once again....... wood firing is the most expensive way to fire
pots . Likely not the place to make $17.00 mugs .
best,
.....................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086-5812 USA
JBaymore@compuserve.com
http://www.JohnBaymore.com
603-654-2752 (studio)
800-900-1110 (studio)
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop: August 15-24,
2003"
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