Milla Miller on tue 5 aug 03
Dear John,
I suspected the previous late night's lightening but the fire marshall
didn't give that weight.I wish I knew how to determine that.I WANT TO REALLY
KNOW.AS I SAID BEFORE MY AGENT EXCLUDED THE KILN BUILDING SPECIFICALLY WHEN
TAKING THIS PROPERTY ON.
I had been giving the grandkids my exclusive attention since they got out of
school and hadn't been near the kiln since then.I was packing the car for
our last time together for the summer as they return to school Thursday.We
had to cancel, my hubby's decision, not mine.
Margaret
In a message dated 8/5/2003 4:45:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
JBaymore@COMPUSERVE.COM writes:
> have you considered
> something like a lightening strike or a major voltage surge or line problem
> from the power company?
John Baymore on wed 6 aug 03
Margret,
I suspected the previous late night's lightening but the fire marshall
didn't give that weight.I wish I knew how to determine that.I WANT TO
REALLY
KNOW.AS I SAID BEFORE MY AGENT EXCLUDED THE KILN BUILDING SPECIFICALLY=
WHEN
TAKING THIS PROPERTY ON.
AHA!!!! So my guess (from my history of looking at kiln problems) was
correct..... that there WAS a thunder storm in the area that was possibly=
in the right time frame. It is amazing what lightning will do. And how
long a small fire can smolder before really getting going.
I'd bet dollars to doghnuts that is the cause....since nothing else I've
heard makes as much sense. Occams Razor. Because if the outlet was not=
in use and hadn't been in a long time, the installation was relatively ne=
w
wiring, and it was put in fully up to relatively current code.... then th=
e
outlet should NOT have had any current flowing on it. Even if the breake=
r
was "ON" there was nothing operating. To generate heat.... there had to =
be
current flow. So there had to be SOMETHING happening on that circuit.
(Maybe the internal kiln wiring spontaneously shorted out? Unlikely.) =
But something had to cause current flow. A lightning strike can raise th=
e
voltage so that the insulation and spacing on the 220VAC wires is no long=
er
"insulating". It "breaks down" the resistance to electron flow.... and
current flows.....right THRU the insulation or the plug material ......
sometimes thru the air itself between the wires and/or any available
ground. Lots of current. Lots of heat.
I was over at Gerry Williams place a few weeks ago. He showed me where
lightning had hit the GROUND near the Phoenix Workshop hexagon
building....... ran across the ground........... went up a piece of
lightweight angle steel which was leaning against the outside of the
building........ scorched the plywood sheathing as the angle iron fell
sideways leaving an arc of burn marks....... and then blew out la large
plate glass window when the angle iron touched the frame of the window. =
It
was pure luck that it had not caused a fire. Lightning is weird stuff.
Hummmmmmm.....it is POSSIBLE ..... but unbeliveable unlikely... that the
nearby lightning strike induced a pulse that caused a computerized kiln
controller (if you have one) to turn itself on. Sort of like the infinit=
e
monkeys and the infinite typewriters writing "King Lear" . More likel=
y
scenario is that it would have simply "fried" the controller into
uselessness....not turned the kiln on. =
Also POSSIBLE ......but unbelievably unlikely..... that the lightning
strike induced a spark in the main relay that controls the voltage to the=
kiln elements (from the computerized controller) that effectively "welded=
"
it "ON". But again........... that would be a pretty "cosmic event".
How exactly did your fire marshal come to the conclusion that the kiln
outlet was the real culprit? WHY did he discount the lightning? It woul=
d
be an easy "assumption" for a layperson to make........ seeing the high a=
mp
220V AC outlet,, the remains of the KILN... and put two and two together
and come up with FIVE.
If there is the possibiility that your insurance will cover things if thi=
s
is NOT related to the kiln........ ie. a lightning strike........ then I'=
d
be sopending a few bucks and hitring an investigator of my own to determi=
ne
the cause of the fire. And I'd ask the fire marshal for a statement IN
WRITING about exactly how he determined that =
the kiln plug was the cause of the fire. You might have a leg to stand o=
n
if part of your home burned down from lightning damage....not a kiln
related fire. Do some digging....and make sure the fire marshal is
RIGHT....not just "assuming". While I am sure that youa re financially
struggling because of this......... it might be worth a few bucks to find=
out for sure.
Wayne......... you are in the business of dealing with the mess after suc=
h
situations........ any thoughts on how one would "prove" a lightning
strike"? (Glad to hear that the homeowners insurance is going to cover
most of your drunk driver's evening of "fun".)
Hope these thoughts are of help.
best,
.....................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086-5812 USA
JBaymore@compuserve.com
http://www.JohnBaymore.com
603-654-2752 (studio)
800-900-1110 (studio)
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop: August 15-24,
2003"
Milla Miller on wed 6 aug 03
In a message dated 8/6/2003 3:02:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
JBaymore@COMPUSERVE.COM writes:
> lightning strike induced a pulse that caused a computerized kiln
> controller (if you have one) to turn itself on
no controller on that kiln,I had one I'd planned to install on the shelf but
never got it installed.The breakers all were flipped to off tho and I DON'T
REMEMBER IF I did that last time I fired,IT IS POSSIBLE I could have.There was
no burn path between the dedicated breaker bok at the kiln and the main box or
breaker.
I appreciate your analysis and I DO WANT TO LEARN FROM THIS BUT AS I SAID
BEFORE THAT BUILDING WAS AND IS EXCLUDED FROM THE HOMEOWNER'S POLICY SINCE THE
GET GO.
psci_kw on wed 6 aug 03
Since we're top posting now (putting the horse's a$$ before the horse :>)
...
There are two messages here to which I am replying:
I have seen lightning (actually watched it!) hit a 40 foot pine tree in the
backyard,
travel down 100 feet of wet clothes line, rip and burn all the vinyl siding
off the side of a house in a complete 4 foot wide horizontal line, just to
go to ground via a
ground rod at the opposite corner of the house.
Lightning is like a 7000 pound elephant... it goes where it wants,
it stops where it wants. Can NOT predict how it will act.
Another possibility that John did not mention is that since it was
an electric kiln, (wrapped in metal, with metal legs sitting on the floor
no doubt)
it is _entirely possible_ , probable even, that the lightning chose the
path down
the wiring, through the plug (which arced and started the fire), then
through the
ground or neutral of the kiln and to ground.
That possibility should be _strongly_ investigated. You might have a faulty
ground on your home electrical system. Probably near the meter.
Here in S. Florida, lightning capital of the East coast, most of the homes
in my area
now have a HUGE honking wire (#4 at the least) from the metal pole where the
wires come into the house
(also known as the weatherhead, or "feed") directly to a ground rod of 1/2
inch copper pounded
at least four feet into the ground. It is the most direct path for
lightning to take.
John:
ANY competent fire investigator will be able to open the electrical box
above the plug
and the plug itself, and determine if it was a loose component or not that
caused the fire.
If there is a warrantee (sp?) on the electrical work that Margaret had
performed, if she kept the
invoice for the work performed, and the record of inspection she would then
have an additional ally ready to swear the work was performed properly.
HOWEVER...Acts of God/Nature (Force Majeure) are usually excluded from
insurance
coverage. (Don't get me started!)
Since her agent already pulled a fast one by specifically excluding the kiln
building, I would
first shop for an agent that would at least entertain the idea of an
additional rider on the policy
to cover the kiln building and it's contents. Perhaps a separate policy is
necessary if it is a
"business" use of the property. But the sleazy insurance snake would have
known that,
and should have offered it! Yes, it costs a bit more...and the snake makes
more commission!
Wayne in Key West
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Baymore"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: FIRE CAUSE
Margret,
I suspected the previous late night's lightening but the fire marshall
didn't give that weight.I wish I knew how to determine that.I WANT TO
REALLY
KNOW.AS I SAID BEFORE MY AGENT EXCLUDED THE KILN BUILDING SPECIFICALLY
WHEN
TAKING THIS PROPERTY ON.
AHA!!!! So my guess (from my history of looking at kiln problems) was
correct..... that there WAS a thunder storm in the area that was possibly
in the right time frame. It is amazing what lightning will do. And how
long a small fire can smolder before really getting going.
snip for space
Wayne......... you are in the business of dealing with the mess after such
situations........ any thoughts on how one would "prove" a lightning
strike"? (Glad to hear that the homeowners insurance is going to cover
most of your drunk driver's evening of "fun".)
Hope these thoughts are of help.
best,
.....................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086-5812 USA
JBaymore@compuserve.com
http://www.JohnBaymore.com
603-654-2752 (studio)
800-900-1110 (studio)
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop: August 15-24,
2003"
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