D. Colo on fri 8 aug 03
Hi all --
I've checked the archives and saw a number of posts
stressing the importance of using copper wiring for a
kiln, but after talking with an electrician who is
giving his estimate, I have a question. I've gotten
the estimate from this guy, but have appointments with
several other electricians to get their quotes first,
before I decide who to go with.
The kiln will be located in a shed on the opposite
side of the house from the main electrical panel, so I
need to have a wire run from the main box to a new
subpanel which will be installed in the shed, and then
outlets for the kiln (and wheel, light, etc).
I told the electrician that I wanted copper wire used,
and he said that aluminum wiring was fine for the line
run from the main panel to the subpanel, but then use
copper wire from subpanel to outlet/kiln. My
impression is that *no* aluminum at all should be
used, but he claims that between panels, it's not a
problem and it's safe to use aluminum. This line will
run under the house (through a crawl space) then be
buried for a distance of about six feet before
reaching the shed. For peace of mind, I'm very
strongly inclined to simply have him put in *all*
copper, including between panels, but was wondering if
he's right.
I asked him what the difference in cost would be and
he said it would be an extra $100 for using all copper
wiring to run under the house. Obviously, an extra
$100 is well worth it if it's a safety issue!! But I
wonder if his additional *costs* for using copper
would really be that much.
The kiln is 24 amps, 110/240 volts but I do want to
allow for someday having a larger kiln so a 60 amp
subpanel circuit seems reasonable.
For interest's sake, the best quote I've gotten on
this job so far (three quotes so far) is ~$900 (or
$1000 w/all copper) and happens to be from this
particular electrician. The other two quotes were
$1300 and $2300. Quite a range! A friend's husband who
is an electrician (works for the county for commercial
work, doesn't do residential) came out and looked at
the job and figured that materials would cost about
$300.
Thanks for any input.
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G.M. Schauer on sat 9 aug 03
D Colo asked whether aluminum wire from the main box to the sub-box was OK
or should all copper be used, cost and safety being the issue.
Well, I just did what you are proposing for a 240 volt 48 amp Skutt in an
added on garage. A friend who is an electrician did the planning and the
connections, and I did the grunt work. We used very heavy aluminum wire #2
gauge I think it was, to run across the basement and crawlspace between the
boxes for 100 amp service at the sub-box. Then we used copper at the gauge
recommended by Skutt for the six feet from the box to the kiln outlet. 80
feet of the aluminum wire was about 80 bucks. I paid him $400 for about 4
hours work and a couple pieces of conduit and connectors, but I did the
physical work of putting the aluminum wire in place.
Hope this helps
Galen Schauer
Minnesota
Earl Brunner on sat 9 aug 03
Go with the copper. In fact I'm not sure I'd even go with the low bid.
I'm not even sure they let people use aluminum wire around here any
more.
If Your friend's husband could lay out (list)the materials for you, (at
least the wire) you might save some money by "roughing" the job in and
only having the electrician connecting the two ends and tying it all
together.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of D. Colo
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 8:52 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Kiln wiring - copper & costs
Hi all --
For peace of mind, I'm very
strongly inclined to simply have him put in *all*
copper, including between panels, but was wondering if
he's right.
I asked him what the difference in cost would be and
he said it would be an extra $100 for using all copper
wiring to run under the house. Obviously, an extra
$100 is well worth it if it's a safety issue!! But I
wonder if his additional *costs* for using copper
would really be that much.
The kiln is 24 amps, 110/240 volts but I do want to
allow for someday having a larger kiln so a 60 amp
subpanel circuit seems reasonable.
For interest's sake, the best quote I've gotten on
this job so far (three quotes so far) is ~$900 (or
$1000 w/all copper) and happens to be from this
particular electrician. The other two quotes were
$1300 and $2300. Quite a range! A friend's husband who
is an electrician (works for the county for commercial
work, doesn't do residential) came out and looked at
the job and figured that materials would cost about
$300.
Thanks for any input.
__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________
______
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You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Lynne Girrell on sat 9 aug 03
> I told the electrician that I wanted copper wire used,
> and he said that aluminum wiring was fine for the line
> run from the main panel to the subpanel, but then use
> copper wire from subpanel to outlet/kiln.
The panels must be specifically labeled for use with both aluminum and
copper conductors.
> ... he claims that between panels, it's not a
> problem and it's safe to use aluminum.
It has nothing to do with panel-to-panel or panel-to-outlet wiring. It has
to do with the type of terminations used. Yes, it can be done by a competent
electrician and it is true that aluminum conductors are often used for
feeder circuits while copper is most often used for branch circuits. Still,
I would question the reasons here for choosing aluminum in this case.
Remember that aluminum conductors must also be larger to carry the same
current load so while you could use #4 copper wire to carry the load, you
will need #2 aluminum wire to carry the same load. Be sure that the quoted
price takes the size difference into account.
The problems with aluminum wiring are exacerbated by thermal cycling. In
other words, if you have conductors that are constantly carrying X amps,
aluminum will probably do well. If you have conductors that cycle between
carrying a heavy load for a while, then very little current the rest of the
time (a kiln load is a perfect example), thermal cycling will eventually
loosen the connection, starting a chain of events that potentially could
lead to a fire. Here is a link to some information that describes the
problem. You will need Adobe Acrobat to read the page. It's part of a course
outline, but it describes the situation well.
http://www.pdhcenter.com/courses/e123/e123content.pdf
Do yourself a favor - order the copper, then sleep well at night.
Bruce Girrell
Lewis on sat 9 aug 03
For the sake of $100, go copper. Then your worries -are gone, and peace of
mind assured.. Is that worth $100? You damn betcha.
At least in the UK we wouldn't have that dilemma - building regulations (aka
"code" in your vernacular) would dictate our (fortunate?) lack of consumer
choice on highly technical issues. And our registration of tradesmen (if
checked by the consumer) would protect us from blatant abuse..
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of D. Colo
Sent: 09 August 2003 04:52
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Kiln wiring - copper & costs
.....[f]or peace of mind, I'm very
strongly inclined to simply have him put in *all*
copper, including between panels, but was wondering if
he's right.
I asked him what the difference in cost would be and
he said it would be an extra $100 for using all copper
wiring to run under the house.
psci_kw on sat 9 aug 03
National Electrical Code _does_ allow the use of copper, copper clad
aluminium, AND aluminium wire for that application.
Aluminium wiriing has to be sized properly (usually larger than copper) for
the same ampacity (amp draw).
Personally, having seen what aluminium wiring can do if NOT correctly
installed (heat up, burn plastic conduit, houses and people)
I would not have it in my house. But it IS allowed. (Don't you just love
our government? Ban smoking for being "bad" for us, and allow the use of
something that could burn down the house and call it safe...sheesh!)
How much is your peace of mind worth? If you decide to go with aluminium,
specify that it is only to be installed in metal conduit under the house.
Plastic is fine for the area that will be underground to the shed.
Hope that helps,
Wayne in Key West
----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Colo"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 11:52 PM
Subject: Kiln wiring - copper & costs
snip
> I told the electrician that I wanted copper wire used,
> and he said that aluminum wiring was fine for the line
> run from the main panel to the subpanel, but then use
> copper wire from subpanel to outlet/kiln. My
> impression is that *no* aluminum at all should be
> used, but he claims that between panels, it's not a
> problem and it's safe to use aluminum. This line will
> run under the house (through a crawl space) then be
> buried for a distance of about six feet before
> reaching the shed. For peace of mind, I'm very
> strongly inclined to simply have him put in *all*
> copper, including between panels, but was wondering if
> he's right.
snip
Paul Gerhold on sat 9 aug 03
If you run aluminum wiring underground make sure you run it in a conduit. If
the coating on aluminum is breached it will corrode very fast . I bought a
house with aluminum wiring underground from the house to the studio and to the
well. Nothing but problems and this was in Florida where it doesn't freeze.
Finally, the wiring went out right before a big show-the electricians couldn"t
find the break with the magnetometer or whatever it is they use so I ended up
runninig about 1000 ft of copper wire on the ground so I could finish my firings
and have water to the house. I buried the wire later cutting some water lines
in the process but that is another story.
In summary aluminum wiring is a false economy unless you are planning to sell
the property soon in which case it's just somewhat unethical. As for an
electrician who would recommend aluminum- find another electrician.
The voice of experience-Paul
John Baymore on sat 9 aug 03
I told the electrician that I wanted copper wire used,
and he said that aluminum wiring was fine for the line
run from the main panel to the subpanel, but then use
copper wire from subpanel to outlet/kiln. My
impression is that *no* aluminum at all should be
used, but he claims that between panels, it's not a
problem and it's safe to use aluminum. This line will
run under the house (through a crawl space) then be
buried for a distance of about six feet before
reaching the shed. For peace of mind, I'm very
strongly inclined to simply have him put in *all*
copper, including between panels, but was wondering if
he's right.
Call your kiln manufacturer. Ask them about what TEHY would recommend fo=
r
one of their 60 amp draw kiln units run off a sub-panel setup like this
one. Arnold.... you reading this thread?
My guess is that they will say COPPER....even if it is feeding a sub-pane=
l
and not the kiln directly. And make SURE that the wire gauge that this
person uses is what the MANUFACTURER of the kiln specifies for the ampera=
ge
kiln you will install later. This in NOT just a typical house wiring
subpanel. Make sure that the electrician knows that you don't want any
significant voltage drop a the end of that long run, and that about 55 of=
the 60 amps he allows for the kiln itself will be running at that draw fo=
r
maybe as long as 8 hours.......... which is probably very different from
his experience base unless he has done industrial stuff. (BTW....... if
you are thinking a 60 amp draw kiln.....you need to allow MORE than that
amperage for the breaker rating and the supply.)
My recommendation is to use copper for long term reliability and safety. =
Particularly with the wiring run being so long from the mains and running=
right thru your house...... where you and the famiy will be sleeping.
The difference between $900 and $1000 is really nothing. Sell two $50.=
00
pots .
I've seen a lot of poorly done electric kiln installations done by
professional electricians over the years of doing kiln consulting. I wou=
ld
say that if your potential electrician looks at the info the manufacturer=
gives you and say that THEY know better how to do it......... as the line=
in Monty Python and the Holy Grail says.......... "Run Away! Run Away!"
. I would want to mlook more at why this person is at the low end pri=
ce
wise. =
When it comes to relaibility and safety, the "low bidder" may not be the
best choice. I'd check a LOT of references before having him/her do the
job. =
Sometimes the saying "you get what you pay for"....... has a lot of merit=
.
A kiln is not in any way the equivalant of an electric range or an electr=
ic
dryer. When that kiln is running on it's maximum draw.... it will be
running for HOURS that way. A stove or dryer typically runs for a few
hours at most......and at no where the same kind of total draw.
A friend's husband who
is an electrician (works for the county for commercial
work, doesn't do residential) came out and looked at
the job and figured that materials would cost about
$300.
This relates back to the $500 pot thread and the marketing stuff . Yu=
p,
the material is not that much. But unlike most potters, the electrician
charges a reasonable rate per hour for his/her skills .
best,
.......................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086-5812 USA
JBaymore@compuserve.com
http://www.JohnBaymore.com
603-654-2752 (studio)
800-900-1110 (studio)
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop: August 15-24,
2003"
Cl Litman on sun 10 aug 03
The biggest problem I've seen with aluminum wiring is that it contracts
and expands more with changes in temperature than does copper. Special
connectors are required to secure it and keep it from working loose over
time.
My brother-in-law's house is wired with aluminum. They had some weird
things start to happen - turn on the living room light and the bathroom
light came on as well. Lot's of mysterious happenings whenever power was
turned on. When they had an electrician come in he finally traced the
problem to receptacles and switches which had been replaced through the
years. They were made for copper wiring, didn't hold the aluminum
properly so it had come loose creating shorts. Since they weren't going
to rip out walls and replace all the wiring in the house, they had to
have him check and replace all connections that weren't of the proper
type. Less expensive than the alternative but still not cheap.
Fortunately they found someone right off the bat who even traced the
problem.
I would think that kiln wiring, a heavy load when running, would cause
even more temperature changes than the mostly seasonal ones that caused
the problem in his house.
Cheryl Litman - NJ
cheryllitman@juno.com
On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:42:57 -0700 Earl Brunner
writes:
> Go with the copper. In fact I'm not sure I'd even go with the low
> bid.
>
> I'm not even sure they let people use aluminum wire around here any
> more.
>
> If Your friend's husband could lay out (list)the materials for you,
> (at
> least the wire) you might save some money by "roughing" the job in
> and
> only having the electrician connecting the two ends and tying it
> all
> together.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of D.
> Colo
> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 8:52 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Kiln wiring - copper & costs
>
> Hi all --
>
> For peace of mind, I'm very
> strongly inclined to simply have him put in *all*
> copper, including between panels, but was wondering if
> he's right.
>
> I asked him what the difference in cost would be and
> he said it would be an extra $100 for using all copper
> wiring to run under the house. Obviously, an extra
> $100 is well worth it if it's a safety issue!! But I
> wonder if his additional *costs* for using copper
> would really be that much.
>
> The kiln is 24 amps, 110/240 volts but I do want to
> allow for someday having a larger kiln so a 60 amp
> subpanel circuit seems reasonable.
>
> For interest's sake, the best quote I've gotten on
> this job so far (three quotes so far) is ~$900 (or
> $1000 w/all copper) and happens to be from this
> particular electrician. The other two quotes were
> $1300 and $2300. Quite a range! A friend's husband who
> is an electrician (works for the county for commercial
> work, doesn't do residential) came out and looked at
> the job and figured that materials would cost about
> $300.
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
> ______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________
_____
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
Larry Kruzan on sun 10 aug 03
> I told the electrician that I wanted copper wire used,
> and he said that aluminum wiring was fine for the line
> run from the main panel to the subpanel, but then use
> copper wire from subpanel to outlet/kiln.
Use only copper period. The al wire deforms more than copper in the main
power box connectors - you must retighten in periodically or it becomes
corroded and resistive. Resistance creates heat - heat creates fire - fire
is good for pots - bad for house/shed/live/etc.
> The kiln is 24 amps, 110/240 volts but I do want to
> allow for someday having a larger kiln so a 60 amp
> subpanel circuit seems reasonable.
>
I would shoot for a 100 amp subplanel, more space for breakers normally, and
more capacity those extras like a radio or light bulb. My kiln is a Skutt
1027 and requires a 60 amp breaker (pulls 52 amps as I recall). Would be
tough with a 60 amp service. Besides the normal use you might decide to use
a welder there sometime. Bigger is better here.
Lastly I would be cautious of using the lowest bidder - you are paying for
expertise and his liability insurance. If he screws up, he bites the bullet
not you. Back where I did a lot of electrical work I found out that guys
who had lower prices than me normally used inferior materials and skimped on
the insurance. In construction always be careful of the lowest bid.
Larry
Kenneth D. Westfall on sun 10 aug 03
Go for nothing but copper!!! Aluminum is great for beer cans, roof
gutters, and pop can but has never been a good option for electric
wiring! If fact I make sure the sub panel has a copper buss. That's the
bar in the box that the breakers clip to which are now made from aluminum
in cheaper boxes. It just one more point for corrosion and problems. ie
(nuisance tripping , fire, and heart break)
Kenneth D. Westfall
Pine Hill Pottery
R.D. #2 Box 6AA
Harrisville, WV 26362
kenneth@pinehillpottery.com
http://www.pinehillpottery.com
william schran on mon 11 aug 03
D. Colo asked about using aluminum wiring vs. copper wiring for a
"mainline" run to a kiln shed.
I had my kiln in the basement of my townhouse where all the high amp
lines were aluminum. My understanding is if the aluminum line is
installed correctly (requires special grease/lub at connection) it
should perform just as well as copper. The problem with aluminum is
where connections are improperly made or aluminum connected to
copper(expansion of different metals).
Just had a 20' line installed for my kiln, #6 copper/50amp breaker
per manufacturer requirement, including a 20 amp line inside same
conduit for kiln vent and portable heater (for working in unheated
garage). Cost of job was $450, and suspect cost of materials about
$50.
I'd say go with what makes you fell comfortable. An extra $100 is not
that much for your peace of mind.
Bill
Arnold Howard on mon 18 aug 03
During the mid-70s there was a copper shortage, so aluminum wiring was
used in thousands of homes. In some cases the aluminum wasn't installed
properly. It was connected to terminals designed for copper. This
resulted in loose connections, overheating, and fires. People reported
smelling burning wire insulation in their homes. At the time, the owner
of Paragon, Frances Darby, warned people against using aluminum wiring.
Though aluminum wiring may be adequate when installed properly, copper
wire is a better conductor. So it is better to stick with it.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P.
arnoldhoward@att.net
From: D. Colo
> I told the electrician that I wanted copper wire used,
> and he said that aluminum wiring was fine for the line
> run from the main panel to the subpanel, but then use
> copper wire from subpanel to outlet/kiln. My
> impression is that *no* aluminum at all should be
> used, but he claims that between panels, it's not a
> problem and it's safe to use aluminum.
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