Susan Setley on wed 20 aug 03
In a message dated 8/20/03 9:26:50 PM, janet@THE-COA.ORG.UK writes:
<<
When it comes to arthritis (specifically), they are never going
to agree with you, me or even the Mayo via Bob Hollis, because
quite simply not only are there more than three score and ten
different types of "arthritis", but EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THIS
PLANET IS DIFFERENT. There is no ABSOLUTE which they can quantify
or qualify, so as far as the scientists and statistics are
concerned, nothing will ever be "proven" to their satisfaction on
a one-size-fits-all basis. >>
I'm sorry but it's just not true.
There are good reasons for scientists to set certain standards, they have
successfully researched all sorts of issues, including research.
The rub is that research groups people together to spot patterns and trends,
and you are an individual who may not meet that specific pattern.
That doesn't make research bad; it makes you an individual. There are times
when I absolutely demand solid research, and in my opinion, with good reason.
But without speculation there would be no new research. There's a place for
everything... even research. :)
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on thu 21 aug 03
Hi Susan,
Some years ago, when I still watched the tee-vee...there was
an interesting Dutch Programme as was shown on the 'P.B.S.'.
The name of it, I think, was 'A Glorious Accident', which
title about summs up a lot of my unhappiness with what
'science' has become.
The programme intended to survey the erudition of a number
of world renouwn scientists, some of whom were okay and some
were swell and some were functional cretins.
Overall, it was exhasperating.
At one point, Rupert Shelldrake was very kindly admonishing
some of them obliquely of one of my pet peeves, to wit, the
fatousities to which 'science' tends ( or tends in the petty
personhoods of famous and not-so-famous-scientists ) to
resort, in an effort to dismiss what it lacks an operative
model for.
The subject at one point, was of 'how' Pigeons may find
their way home...
The other famous scientists, sneering and annoyed, retorted
tersly, that it was because they have a 'Magnet' in their
head...
If that is enough to satifsy the majority of famous
'scientists', and it is, too...
I may only sigh...
Yours,
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Setley"
> Or did I miss something?
>
> >>
>
> Perhaps. :)
>
>
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Snail Scott on thu 21 aug 03
At 02:30 PM 8/21/03 EDT, you wrote:
>...scientist seem to...change their minds with each
>slight discovery of something. They have so many different theories for the
>same thing...
This is the great thing about science. Science is not
about being right, or knowing the 'truth'. It is about
seeking that truth, using processes which by their
nature are intended to ferret out errors in previous
scientific effort and arrive at a truer understanding.
This is the essential difference between science and
faith. Not whether you believe in quarks or karma,
creation or evolution, but the process itself, which
contains the seeds of its own self-correction. It is
not an unflawed process, as it relies on human effort,
and requires that the right questions be asked in order
for the answer to be relevant. Science is not a set of
facts, but a process. If there were not many competing
theories, and minds being changed with each discovery,
the process wouldn't be working.
The mutable nature of scientific understanding, which
you seem to hold as a weakness, is in fact its greatest
strength.
-Snail
Rob Van Rens on thu 21 aug 03
> In a message dated 8/20/03 9:26:50 PM, janet@THE-COA.ORG.UK writes:
", but EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THIS
>
> PLANET IS DIFFERENT.
As spoken in Monty Python's _The Life of Brian_,
"You're all individials...!"
""We're all individuals..." and from the back of the crowd pipes up a small
voice "I'm not!"
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on thu 21 aug 03
I do not remember that any amount of scientific research has
yet produced the requisite scientific evidence to prove the
existance of scientists.
Or to do so as other than ephemeral figments of the
gullibility of public imagination, confusions as to the
Planet 'Venus', 'swamp-gas' or casual misapprehensions of
some other presumably natural phenomenon...
Or did I miss something?
Too...'Medicine' is not and never was 'science', if we are
told it is, the best advise I can think of, is run!
Medicine may employ Scientific methods and the testimonies
of them, for some things...
Even as anyone may, for anything...
The scientific method will never reveal a scientist, any
more than a Telescope will reveal itself for one's looking
through it...nor, does looking through it tell one much
about 'where' to aim. A task one addresses without it, to
then address with it.
Yes?
No?
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Setley"
> That doesn't make research bad; it makes you an
individual. There are times
> when I absolutely demand solid research, and in my
opinion, with good reason.
> But without speculation there would be no new research.
There's a place for
> everything... even research. :)
Susan Setley on thu 21 aug 03
In a message dated 8/21/03 12:08:06 PM, pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET writes:
<< I do not remember that any amount of scientific research has
yet produced the requisite scientific evidence to prove the
existance of scientists.
Or to do so as other than ephemeral figments of the
gullibility of public imagination, confusions as to the
Planet 'Venus', 'swamp-gas' or casual misapprehensions of
some other presumably natural phenomenon...
Or did I miss something?
>>
Perhaps. :)
Jan L. Peterson on thu 21 aug 03
How about maybe, Phil. That's a rather convoluted conversation. Are we
disputing the existence of men in white laboratory jackets with vials and animals in
little rooms, or are we disputing Arthritis? True, the electronic people only
state for certain that this is mathematical fact while the scientist seem to
being paid to big White man's Witch doctors and change their minds with each
slight discovery of something. They have so many different theories for the
same thing, we might as well check with a Shaman, whose methods have not changed
over the centuries, and has a modicum of success. Either that, or find a gypsy
with a crystal ball. Jan
Susan Setley on thu 21 aug 03
In a message dated 8/21/03 2:32:03 PM, JPETTERS2@AOL.COM writes:
<< True, the electronic people only
state for certain that this is mathematical fact while the scientist seem to
being paid to big White man's Witch doctors and change their minds with each
slight discovery of something. They have so many different theories for the
same thing, we might as well check with a Shaman, >>
What is this opposition to research? Of course research comes up with
conflicting results. Good research is inherently distorting. It's like looking at a
beautiful butterfly through a microscope: you learn new things about the
butterfly, but at the cost of the big pictures.
Researchers aren't supposed to do both. People with broader scope take all
the puzzle pictures and try to make a whole picture. Rail at researchers for
doing research well? Why not criticize the ocean for being salty...
Janet Kaiser on thu 21 aug 03
Those three words get my goat every time!! From global warming to
the influence of diet on health, when the "experts" start on
their "lack of scientific evidence" spiel, I just want to roll
over and play dead.
When it comes to arthritis (specifically), they are never going
to agree with you, me or even the Mayo via Bob Hollis, because
quite simply not only are there more than three score and ten
different types of "arthritis", but EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THIS
PLANET IS DIFFERENT. There is no ABSOLUTE which they can quantify
or qualify, so as far as the scientists and statistics are
concerned, nothing will ever be "proven" to their satisfaction on
a one-size-fits-all basis.
They (and the institutions / companies they work for) are not
interested in looking at the individual. Oh, no! That would be
far too labour intensive and how can a pill be developed when
every one is going need a taylor-made solution to their own
unique "problem"?
But what the rest of us who have experienced, heard about, advise
and/or recommend must ALSO realise, is that what works for you,
me or Uncle Tom Cobbly, will NOT necessarily help everyone else
suffering the same condition.
In other words, just because not eating nightshades (potatoes,
tomatoes, peppers) containing solanine helps relieve the symptoms
of Joe in Johannesburg's rheumatic aches and pains, it does NOT
mean Tim in Timbuktoo will experience the same affect. No, Tim
may find his own relief by not eating acids like citrus fruits
and tomatoes. Ronnie finds he always feels rotten after eating
red meat and drinking alcohol, but Willie in Wisconsin finds he
should avoid all wheat products including his favourite beer and
whisky and take-away pizza. Dan in Dover could do a lot better
cutting out dairy products and Fred in Finland finds fundamental
relief eating fatty fish every day! OK, OK... Got carried away
with the alliteration, but you get my drift? We each have to find
our own "dos" and "donts".
The one and only nutritional factor which everyone (conventional
medics to alternative and naturopath practitioners) apparently
has agreed upon: we should all reduce the amount of manufactured
and processed foods we eat. A good, well-balanced diet which
promotes health and reduces the incidence of everything from
heart disease to diabetes, as well as improves all arthritic
conditions includes lots of fresh fruit, fresh vegetables, whole
grains, pulses and fish. A minimum intake of meat, animal fats,
dairy products, sugar and beverages whether alcoholic or
"processed" in other ways like coffee, cocoa and tea should also
be reduced to an absolute minimum.
So... That is the sum and total of all I have recently learned
after a pretty intensive course of self-education from books,
journals, internet and kind folk like Tom Buck, Phil Poburka and
others who have shared their own research, experience and beliefs
with me. I am following in my Mother`s footsteps here... She
"cured" her own osteo arthritis without any medical intervention.
She did not even take aspirin, but controlled pain, swelling and
immobility by completely cutting out intake of what she referred
to as "my poisons" (citrus fruits, sugar, tomatoes, alcohol, red
meat, mayonnaise). Although tea was also a recognised "personal
poison" she could not give that up completely however much she
tried, but she did increase herbal "rheumatic teas" to
compensate! She also took cider vinegar mixed with with cod liver
oil (yuck!), slippery elm, dolomite and green-lipped muscle
extract.
I may appear to be sneering at the conventional medics and
pharmaceutical companies, but I admit they have provided me (and
countless others) with wonderful relief, for which I am truly
grateful. HOWEVER the side-effects of all the pill popping remain
a calculated risk and if there is any way I can reduce my
dependence on the new generation of wonder drugs I will jolly
well try! But I think "they" should also put some effort into at
least giving credence to what their own patients are telling them
by the thousand! None of us is going to find a cure-all potion,
but if both patients and doctors could only work in harmony it
would surely be a giant step forwards?
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser - SO EXCITED!!!! Rikki Gill is coming to visit!!!
Californian Sunshine to shine on Criccieth and The Path!! Yes,
Rikki is bringing her tile in person... Wonderful! We are going
to have fun! fun! fun! :-)
***********************************************************
The top posted mail was sent by Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art : Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent : Criccieth : Wales : UK
Centre of Excellence for The Arts
Home of The International Potters' Path
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 http://www.the-coa.org.uk
Open: 13.00 to 17.00hrs : Tuesday to Saturday
************** AVG Virus Protected ********************
Susan Setley on fri 22 aug 03
In a message dated 8/22/03 8:50:59 PM, pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET writes:
<< Hi Zoe,
Most true...
And in which, and in which broader context, it is maybe not
quite so easy to say...what is anylonger meant by the term
Science...
I see merely bad sociology...and those expedient evocations
as it rely on to impress the gullible, or, to do 'business'
( being about the same thing...)
No? >>
Is there any "good" sociology? :)
Sociology isn't science. It uses methods also used in science, such as
statistical methodology. I don't think "rigor" and "science" are interchangeable. I
was in a "soft" field myself, and I don't think subjects such as sociology can
ever be viewed as science. There are just too many variables.
Vince Pitelka on fri 22 aug 03
Louis -
I have noticed that most doctors, especially orthopedists, are now
acknowledging that glucosamine/chondritin may offer some benefits. About
six years ago I started walking every morning to get in better shape for
hiking. My standard daily walk is a strenuous two miles, with extreme up-
and down-hill stretches on paved roads. After several years of that I began
having knee and hip aches. It was really discouraging, because I love
hiking so much, and I just wanted to get in better shape for it. Someone
suggested glucosamine/chondritin, and I started taking it (1500 mg.
glucosamine and 1200 mg. of chondritin per day - that's three of the big
caplets that Cosco sells under the Kirkland brand). Within a year I saw
dramatic effect, and now I am completely free of any knee or hip aches or
pains. Who knows what else might have affected the problem, but I
understand that glucosamine/chondritin takes about a year to show
noticeable results, and that corresponds exactly with my experience. I
intend to keep taking it.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Jan L. Peterson on fri 22 aug 03
No, that wasn't it at all. It's the inconsistencies, even in the best and
most extensive researches. Like a lot of them really don't care. One week, this
is good for Arthritis, and the next week it isn't. Diet is in, then it isn't.
Wouldn't mind so much, except they make each one sound like the last word on a
subject. People take the treatments, of medication, or the exercise, only to
find that wasn't the last word on the subject and this is better.
I take Celebrex for my arthritis, for instance. Works very well, creates
ulcers, or at least encourages them, and a few other side effects I won't mention,
but I'm not bent over like a lot of people, and am getting to where I only
need to take it at the onset of symptoms. Now, they are saying it's no more
effective than a double dose of Ibuprofen. And that Ibuprofen in that large a
dosage is not especially good for you. Vitamins are good. Wait a minute, they
aren't. You don't enough of absorption from a vitamin pill.
Where did I say they shouldn't research? Of course they should. But they
should complete the research before they jump the gun and talk to the media. jp
Janet Kaiser on fri 22 aug 03
With due respect Susan, I think you missed the whole point of my
post.
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser - whose ISP conked out tonight -- probably under the
pressure of all the wormy mail being sent... What a waste of
resources and bandwidth!
***********************************************************
The top posted mail was sent by Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art : Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent : Criccieth : Wales : UK
Centre of Excellence for The Arts
Home of The International Potters' Path
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 http://www.the-coa.org.uk
Open: 13.00 to 17.00hrs : Tuesday to Saturday
************** AVG Virus Protected ********************
Zoe Paddy Johnson on fri 22 aug 03
> I see merely bad sociology...and those expedient evocations
Actually, all sociology is bad sociology. Sociology is Anthropology's evil
twin...
Zoe Paddy Johnson on fri 22 aug 03
As a statistician, I don't think most of the scientists are at fault with
the news stories that change what is good and what is bad on a weekly
basis. It is the media looking for a story, and folks hyping a story so
that they can sell something remotely connected to a "discovery". There is
a tremendous amount of frustation with this on the science news groups.
Science is a process that where ideas are modified and changed throughout
the process of figuring something out. What the news media does is grab a
small snapshot and hype it as an end point. Then someone else grabs a
snapshot from a different angle at a different time and it get hyped.
Expecting them all to be the same is sort of the same thing as expecting
every pot you make to be the same... Hopefully as time goes on, the
snapshots converge one theory, but that may take a long time, and in the
meantime, 500 conflicting pictures are out there and the public gives up in
frustration.
ZoeJ
Louis Katz on fri 22 aug 03
Like a bunch of other clay workers, I own a house in Helena, Montana.
Self reliant as i can be I went and put a new roof on it. Drove home to
Texas and when I got there my hands and arms were swollen. Every joint
was inflamed fingers to shoulders, both sides. Doctor called the
scourge " chronic overuse syndrome". After a month of cortisone and
anti-inflammatories I was at a point where I could use my hands for
demos at school. I saw Crystal Harrison the following NCECA conference
in March. The wife of Robert Harrison (clay architectural sculptor) she
gave me some stretching exercises. They seemed to help immediately
(next day). The theory seems to be (my conjecture) that if you spend
lots of effort gripping a tool you develop tight one sided muscles that
continually put pressure on the joints. Stretching relieves this
pressure. After a few months my hands were much better. I still have my
limits. When I have to work hard I use Naproxen Sodium an over the
counter anti-inflammatory) and keep my hours down as far as possible. I
also stretch them. If you are having trouble with arthritis, or any
other joint problems a trip to a physical therapist might really pay
off. Crystal specializes in hands. A few years ago Crystal did a thing
on hands for NCECA. It might be written up in a journal.
A year ago I read up on Glucosamine and Chondroitin. There was a study
of US Navy Seals (divers) who were suffering from arthritic knees.
These two substances in a double blind study helped their knees. It was
not a panacea, it did not help arthritic backs. There have been some
followup studies and it also seems to help hands (source: my cousin an
M.D.). It is the only supplement I take other than a multivitamin. I
have seen no effect yet but the Navy Seal study showed a pretty high
rate of help so I am going to just believe it is there and keep taking
it for a while.
Louis
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on fri 22 aug 03
Hi Snail,
Well said and nicely, too...
While both 'truth' and 'science' are maybe in their own ways
quite large subjects, difficult to generalize about, it is
possible, as you have done here, to make some observations
about them.
Among which, is for me to mention of an interview I was
listening to on the Radio the other day...
World renoun famous-person scientist Astronomer fellow...who
I guess is in charge of the 'SETI' project or
something...anyway, as employs that large Radio Telescope in
Puerto Rico to investigate possible 'signals' from the far
reaches of Space as may prospectively be interpreted to
imply sentient origins...
When asked how come the Telescope has never been directed to
those areas of Space to which many paleolithic as well as
ancient Civilizations attributed habitation and visitations
from, he replied ( more or less) "Because the Telescope
costs a lot of money to run, and since they are running it
all the time anyway, we prefer to direct it to those areas
of Space to which we as Astronomers attribute the 'oldest'
Stars"
Which 'oldest' stars to them suggest the highest probability
of evolved sentient Planetary habitaions from which
'signals' may issue...
If 'science' could 'find' a Horse in a Pasture sometimes...I
would be very, very impressed...(I know they can,
could...'would' maybe another matter...and too there is the
matter of 'truth' and of how it is that "He who pays the
Piper Call the Tune"...too...) There is all the difference
in the World between 'science', Science and 'scientists' or
Scientists...
Yes?
Often, it is more like...the 'Special Olympics' somehow...at
least as far as the interface between 'science' and the
rest-of-the-human-world...
...Big...BIG 'sigh'...
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Snail Scott"
> At 02:30 PM 8/21/03 EDT, you wrote:
> >...scientist seem to...change their minds with each
> >slight discovery of something. They have so many
different theories for the
> >same thing...
>
>
> This is the great thing about science. Science is not
> about being right, or knowing the 'truth'. It is about
> seeking that truth, using processes which by their
> nature are intended to ferret out errors in previous
> scientific effort and arrive at a truer understanding.
>
> This is the essential difference between science and
> faith. Not whether you believe in quarks or karma,
> creation or evolution, but the process itself, which
> contains the seeds of its own self-correction. It is
> not an unflawed process, as it relies on human effort,
> and requires that the right questions be asked in order
> for the answer to be relevant. Science is not a set of
> facts, but a process. If there were not many competing
> theories, and minds being changed with each discovery,
> the process wouldn't be working.
>
> The mutable nature of scientific understanding, which
> you seem to hold as a weakness, is in fact its greatest
> strength.
>
> -Snail
>
>
____________________________________________________________
__________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at melpots@pclink.com.
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on fri 22 aug 03
Hi Zoe,
Most true...
And in which, and in which broader context, it is maybe not
quite so easy to say...what is anylonger meant by the term
Science...
I see merely bad sociology...and those expedient evocations
as it rely on to impress the gullible, or, to do 'business'
( being about the same thing...)
No?
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zoe Paddy Johnson"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: OT "No scientific evidence" (Arthritis)
> As a statistician, I don't think most of the scientists
are at fault with
> the news stories that change what is good and what is bad
on a weekly
> basis. It is the media looking for a story, and folks
hyping a story so
> that they can sell something remotely connected to a
"discovery". There is
> a tremendous amount of frustation with this on the science
news groups.
> Science is a process that where ideas are modified and
changed throughout
> the process of figuring something out. What the news
media does is grab a
> small snapshot and hype it as an end point. Then someone
else grabs a
> snapshot from a different angle at a different time and it
get hyped.
> Expecting them all to be the same is sort of the same
thing as expecting
> every pot you make to be the same... Hopefully as time
goes on, the
> snapshots converge one theory, but that may take a long
time, and in the
> meantime, 500 conflicting pictures are out there and the
public gives up in
> frustration.
> ZoeJ
>
>
____________________________________________________________
__________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at melpots@pclink.com.
Susan Setley on fri 22 aug 03
In a message dated 8/22/03 7:03:00 PM, pjohnso@UNM.EDU writes:
<< As a statistician, I don't think most of the scientists are at fault with
the news stories that change what is good and what is bad on a weekly
basis. It is the media looking for a story, and folks hyping a story so
that they can sell something remotely connected to a "discovery". There is
a tremendous amount of frustation with this on the science news groups. >>
You are absolutely right. Very often the media mangles the science as they
report it, too.
iandol on sat 23 aug 03
Dear Friends,
Might I suggest to those who are confused about the Nature of Science, =
that they read the works of Prof. Karl R.Popper; "Conjecture and =
Refutation" and "The Logic of Scientific Discovery".
In essence, the purpose of Science it to test and the accent is always =
on disproof of a theory rather than its validation.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
Bob Nicholson on sat 23 aug 03
>As a statistician, I don't think most of the scientists are at fault with
>the news stories that change what is good and what is bad on a weekly
>basis. It is the media looking for a story, and folks hyping a story so
>that they can sell something remotely connected to a "discovery".
You are so right! Much of the public's negative impression of science
is due to poor reporting. Often the reporters don't understand what
they are reporting on - or simply look for sensational aspects. A
cautiously worded scientific report on preliminary research results
ends up in the media as "Scientists Prove Egg Salad Prevents Shingles!"
PurpleLama@AOL.COM on sat 23 aug 03
//I have noticed that most doctors, especially orthopedists, are now
acknowledging that glucosamine/chondritin may offer some benefits. ??
Two years ago I began having severe pain in my right neck/shoulder and down
my arm. Sometimes my handsI would tingles or go almost numb. I would massage my
neck and shoulder, but it didn't help. (I am a trained massage therapist).
Told my dr about it when I went for a physical (many months after it started).
She thought it was carpel tunnel and gave me a brace, but also sent me for
xrays. Then it was off for an MRI because it seems I have arthritis in my neck,
c3-c6 I think it is.
My dr sent me to an orthopod. He told me that surgery doesn't usually help in
my case (good thing, since that is the very LAST thing I want). He told me to
buy CosaminDS (glucosamine/condtoitin) at Costco, initially take 2 a day and
after three months, 1 a day. He said that the College of Orthopods recommended
the brand. He also gave me an exercise to do - roll my head from shoulder to
shoulder going around back (not chin to chest). Apparently, rolling my head
to the back pops things back where they belong. A week or two after I began the
CosaminDS, the pain went away. I still wake up with hands tingling/numb, but
all I have to do is roll my head back and the nerves are no longer pinched and
feeling instantly returns. Sometimes it seems like magic.
Shula
falling apart ;-) in sunny Redondo Beach, CA
Jan L. Peterson on sat 23 aug 03
Tried it just now. Have had migraine and tension headaches all week. Have
been rolling my head, but included the chin to chest. Will try your way for
awhile. I'll try anything at this point. I'm just so muddled and fuzzy. And
completely drained. Jan-Alleycat & Co.
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sat 23 aug 03
Hi Jan,
Are you possibly dehydrated?
I drink a gallon and a half of clean water a day...I weigh
145 lbs.
Now I live in a 'hot' climate...but nevertheless...
Are you sufficiently hydrated?
Best wishes!
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan L. Peterson"
To:
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: OT "No scientific evidence" (Arthritis)
> Tried it just now. Have had migraine and tension headaches
all week. Have
> been rolling my head, but included the chin to chest. Will
try your way for
> awhile. I'll try anything at this point. I'm just so
muddled and fuzzy. And
> completely drained. Jan-Alleycat & Co.
>
>
____________________________________________________________
__________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at melpots@pclink.com.
Jan L. Peterson on sat 23 aug 03
Yeah, it would seem so. I just took the pinch test. On the other hand, both
legs appear to be swollen. I'm dry-mouthed most of the time, and drink up
everything I can get hold of, but it doesn't do anything, but go straight to the
ankles, feet and legs. There is a tumor on my Renal Gland, but they don't seem
to think it's very important, so I just toddle along. Of course, one leg has
staples in it all the way down due to heart surgery, but that was eight years
ago. The tumor is a gift from one of their cholesterol medications. I tried
Niacin and ended up with the dandiest rash and the reddest face you've ever seen
on someone who isn't angry.
Migraine headaches and tensionheadaches have long been one of those things I
seem to have to have. I seem to function; some. I keep going anyway, but
considerably slower than my usual pace. Can't think very quickly. Jan- Alleycat &
Co.
Zoe Paddy Johnson on sat 23 aug 03
I started rolling my head on the advise of a friend. I ended up with a
pinched nerve in my neck, which rendered my right arm useless and my left
arm nearly so. Both the doctor and chiropractor who eventually fixed the
problem, were horrified that I started such a "dangerous" exercise without
getting my neck checked first. Evidentally, this exercise can be bad in
some people with a certain vertebral anatomies. Check it out before
starting. It was the most miserable 6 months of my life.
ZoeJ
>> Tried it just now. Have had migraine and tension headaches
> all week. Have
>> been rolling my head, but included the chin to chest. Will
> try your way for
>> awhile. I'll try anything at this point. I'm just so
> muddled and fuzzy. And
>> completely drained. Jan-Alleycat & Co.
Jan L. Peterson on sun 24 aug 03
OK. I'll be careful with it. I was asked at the Dr.'s if I had had any
accidents lately, and immediately wondered if one could give one a whiplash avoiding
a black eye from a jumping dog. Probably not. I am starting to feel better,
although still fuzzy and muddled, like I'm swimming in molasses and my brain is
wrapped in cotton balls. This one was so much worse than others and has had
longer lasting effects. Maybe it just my age that made it such a devastating
headache. Jan, the Alleycat
Susan Setley on sun 24 aug 03
In a message dated 8/24/03 7:20:31 PM, pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET writes:
<<
What we have instead is very incomplete and partial
'science', >>
Science is no good unless it has all the answers? LIke good art, good science
raises more questions than it answers.
Doric T. Jemison-Ball ll on sun 24 aug 03
Jan:
Has anybody checked to see if you have diabetes?
Doric T. Jemison-Ball ll
BBS-LA
14622 Ventura Blvd. #727
Sherman Oaks, CA 91403
In Southern California
818-262-5367 CELL/Voice/Message
In Northern California
707-884-5067 Voice
707-884-5417 FAX
buffalo@bbs-la.com
www.bbs-la.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan L. Peterson"
To:
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: OT "No scientific evidence" (Arthritis)
> Yeah, it would seem so. I just took the pinch test. On the other hand,
both
> legs appear to be swollen. I'm dry-mouthed most of the time, and drink up
> everything I can get hold of, but it doesn't do anything, but go straight
to the
> ankles, feet and legs. There is a tumor on my Renal Gland, but they don't
seem
> to think it's very important, so I just toddle along. Of course, one leg
has
> staples in it all the way down due to heart surgery, but that was eight
years
> ago. The tumor is a gift from one of their cholesterol medications. I
tried
> Niacin and ended up with the dandiest rash and the reddest face you've
ever seen
> on someone who isn't angry.
>
> Migraine headaches and tensionheadaches have long been one of those things
I
> seem to have to have. I seem to function; some. I keep going anyway, but
> considerably slower than my usual pace. Can't think very quickly. Jan-
Alleycat &
> Co.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sun 24 aug 03
Hi Ivor!
And we may wonder why no one now as is occupied with
'Hi-Rise' or Monumental Archetecture could 'build' a stone
'Cathedral'...
Yes indeedy...
Too...
Or to reflect upon the screams of blasphemy as Charles
Kettering got in his introduction of the 'Electric Starter'
for Automibiles 91 years ago even...but Kettering was more
than a pedantic, dessicated 'scientist' hell bent on
proveing that nothing but their own oblique vanity may (have
permission) to 'exist'...
Or how it is even yet, that 'science' denies any validity to
anything for which they do not have an operative consensual
'model'...or the wit to accomidate the obligations TO a
prospective 'Model' as requires adjustments of their
prejudices.
Some Australian Aboriginies still preserve (and others as
may not be Aboriginies may posess the delicay of faculty to
as well espye or 'find') the 'mental' Maps of Hunting
Trails, many of whose portions have been under Water since
the melting of the Glaciers of the last Ice Age...and must
allow respects to the overlay ammendments OF the Maps to use
them.
...'science' sneers...
Meanwhile, any number of intrisicly useless 'scientists'
should (as a mercy!) perish if ever they were to need to
find or follow those or other 'trails'...
Too bad we may not arrange THAT 'experiment'?
...sigh...
Maybe if they had more humility and affection FOR Life, I'd
like 'em more...
Maybe if they were not so hell bent on making a
'dead'-world', making their baliwick the end-all and be-all,
I could respect them.
As it is, because I Love Science, AND Life, I as well am
obliged to construe those cruel departures from both, and
especially as wish to impose their tyrranies on either.
If 'science' was not so entrenched in the politics of it's
own tryannical vanity, if it Loved Life and had some respect
for it, the progress of Science should not have become so
corrupted and NON transcendant of it's very worshipped
nemesis...
Or phrased differently, they do not fool me...
I have met enough of them, or seeing them on the tee-vee,
or hearing them on the Radio...
As a 'class'...they hate Life and 'science' is their revenge
and compensatory gambit.
Not the same as respect at all..not the same as an open
minded curiousity and interest and humility to acknowledge
things for which they maybe do not 'have' a handy operative
'model'...
They like a 'stacked-deck', and to deal from it...
The 'SETI' Telescope will NEVER be 'pointed' to the Pliades
or Orion...
On and nauseatingly on...
Not so good...
Sheesh! Why do I even 'care' anymore!
Maybe bescuse I have enough old Books to see that Science
was once something rather 'else' from what it has
become...it did not allways 'need' to 'explain' everything,
or moreso, to dismiss curtly what it may not conveniently
explain...or to be so jealous of everthing it does not
controll.
On and on...
Infidelity to the 'method' is not the Method...
Nor is the Method 'King'...
The 'Method' is a Prince as may serve the King...
Or not.
I see it...'like that'...
Yours!
Allways,
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "iandol"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 10:59 PM
Subject: OT "No scientific evidence" (Arthritis)
Dear Friends,
Might I suggest to those who are confused about the Nature
of Science, that they read the works of Prof. Karl R.Popper;
"Conjecture and Refutation" and "The Logic of Scientific
Discovery".
In essence, the purpose of Science it to test and the accent
is always on disproof of a theory rather than its
validation.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
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pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sun 24 aug 03
If Science (as an institution) wished (or wishes us) to
understand 'Arthritus' -
that is, to deliniate the aetiology of it, and hence,
likely,
to investigate those ACTUAL regimines as may remediate it's
mischiefs...or othyerwise even to approve a 'cure' in the
absence of detailed 'explainations', I have no doubt it
would or could do so quite
well, or quite well enough.
What we have instead is very incomplete and partial
'science',
as does not do justice to the precepts OF Science or (in
this and other examples) to the austensible 'subject' it
wishes to investigate. We have the purportion of 'subject'
as pretense for profession and jealous authorities.
What we have mostly, are those narrow applications of
'science' as are calculated to make money for their
employers.
The employers being the large pharmacautical houses and
their symbiotes various.
It is one thing to investigate real things in such a way as
to describe a useful Model, or to find a pragmatic method or
Regimin even IF it has no highly integrated 'theoretical'
Model TO accounbt for it, or to accomidate the features and
functions of the thing one investigates BY respecting them
AS themselves...and quite another
to make that 'Model' small enough, excludeing enough, to
suit one's taste for
impatience or other concessions or compromises.
Seems to me...
Phil
Las Vegas
iandol on mon 25 aug 03
Dear Phil in El Vee,
Methinks thou hast confused the cult of personality with the practice of =
critical thought by the human intellect.
For goodness sake, give your self a mental treat and read Old Karl P. =
You might even have a look into the collaborative work he produced with =
John C. Eccles. "The Self and its Brain".
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 26 aug 03
...hi Ivor!
Oh...I have been grumpy I think...AND feeling exhasperated
at the interface between what is presented as 'science' to
the public, by government and by 'science' somehow, and
hearing these interviews and having seen some of the famous
and so on on the tee-vee and I could pull my hair if it
would assuage the exhasperation with their sheer hypocracy
and evasions and narrow-eyed sudden shifts of gameboard...
So...'cult of personality', or, the guy who runs
'SETI'...the spokesmen and morons and liars as run 'nasa',
on and on...puppets and liars and phony corporate
gamesmen...
'Science' my ass...!
It is all (about) something 'else'...
Anyway...
I went on 'Amazon' and ordered the Book you recommended
here, and shall read it...
...sigh...
I remember Richard Feynman...reading some of his
Books...seeing him on the tee-vee.
I liked him a lot...I would have liked to have known him.
HE was 'tearing his hair' too...and often...
Anyway...
Time for Tay-an'-a-Craven-Aye I think...
Best!
Thanks for bein' a good sport Ivor!
Yours,
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "iandol"
Dear Phil in El Vee,
Methinks thou hast confused the cult of personality with the
practice of critical thought by the human intellect.
For goodness sake, give your self a mental treat and read
Old Karl P. You might even have a look into the
collaborative work he produced with John C. Eccles. "The
Self and its Brain".
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
____________________________________________________________
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You may look at the archives for the list or change your
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