Donn Buchfinck on sun 24 aug 03
I have to agree a lot of poeple who are not heros call themselves artists.
That is about what I call the "cult of personality" peer recognition,
phycophants.
A real artist is an artist, they make art,
I paint, make sculpture, I make things in clay, and I draw, I am an artist,
good or bad my sculpture and paintings are art, I don't have to convince people
of that.
But on another note, before we can become heros, maybe we have to put the
armor on to go out and do battle. Wear that armor, get used to its weight, it's
demands, what it means to take on that moniker.
Maybe calling ourselves "artist" is the first step in understanding the
lifelong commitment that being an artist demands. True artists grow into that
definition.
Calling oneself an artist does not make it come true,
You have to do it, take the challenge on.
Earl Brunner on sun 24 aug 03
I think, Lily, that the problem is a problem of definitions, I think you
might be applying a higher definition to the word than someone else
might when they use the same word. I have a BFA, a bachelor of fine
arts degree. I graduated from a college with a degree in art. Some
would say that as a result, I am an artist. (I really don't care, in
fact when we get into a discussion of what makes something "art" I tend
to go with the higher, more nebulous definition. The kind of definition
Walter Gropius and Marguerite Wildenhain subscribed to). When we
affectionately refer to someone on this list as a "Guru", what are we
really trying to say?
We are simply making a distinction between their knowledge on a subject,
Glaze formulation, wood firing, whatever, and the general knowledge
level of say, the average person on the list. You yourself see a
difference between someone on the list who doesn't know a frit from
clay, and say Ron Roy. Gurus have done the time, and the name simply
acknowledges that.
You are right if these people were applying this honorific to
themselves, but generally on this list, that is not the case. WE as a
list, have applied the term to them. Some of them aren't even very
comfortable with being called such, because they have their heads on
right.
Artist that paint, sculpt, make pots, a painter, a sculptor, a potter.
Apply this to a Doctor, what kind? a rheumatologist, a GP, a surgeon.
The problem is, today anyone can call themselves an artist. Can anyone
call themselves a doctor? In Art, the term has been bastardized to mean
anyone who wants to call themselves an artist. That wasn't always the
case. Take a class, you're an artist. Since everyone who's taken a
class is a "potter", the honorifics we give, (not the one's we take) are
attempts by the group (potters) to acknowledge the skill levels of the
ones among us who have achieved some level of distinction in the field.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Lily
Krakowski
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 11:23 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Vince: About "Artist" II
While throwing and keeping an eye, sort of, on a huge pot of applesauce,
I
thought some more about "artist" and why loose use of the term bugs me.
It is wrong, I think, for a group of people in a category of professions
to
appropriate an honorific and rename themselves with it. If people are
painters and sculptors and potters, and like that, that is what they
should
call themselves. Not appropriate an honorific used to describe someone
who
does something supremely well.
There are military men. Soldiers, flyers, marines, sailors etc. They
have
ranks. And some are heroes. But is would be wrong, I think, for them
to
call themselves "heroes." I would find it offensive if I ran into
someone at
a party and ask what she does and she says "Oh. I am a hero...." Not so
fast
my girl....
Ditto, same party, if I ran into someone who describes himself as an
artist.
Not so fast, m'lad.
Off to check the applesauce....Smells so good...
Lili Krakowski
Constableville, N.Y.
Vince Pitelka on sun 24 aug 03
> It is wrong, I think, for a group of people in a category of professions
to
> appropriate an honorific and rename themselves with it. If people are
> painters and sculptors and potters, and like that, that is what they
should
> call themselves. Not appropriate an honorific used to describe someone
who
> does something supremely well.
Dear Lili -
You and I have very different interpretations of the term "artist." That is
okay, there is plenty of room for different interpretations. My point is
that throughout history there have been terrible artists who none-the-less
were referred to as artists. Being a bad artist is better than not being an
artist at all. Writing bad poetry is better than not writing poetry at all.
Either endeavor is likely to make one a better artist or poet over time.
But in the former case the maker of bad art is still an artist, and in the
latter case the maker of bad poems is still a poet. I would always rather
see good art and read good poetry, but I say thank good for the bad artists
and bad poets. They provide context.
I believe that the artist in all of us should be encouraged, because it is
something that is largely missing from society in general, and we can
constantly feel the lacking of it. If people did not view the reality of
"artist" as something so lofty and distant, they would be far more willing
and able to express themselves through visual media, and to think of
themselves as artists. We would all benefit from that. Seems to me a
wonderful way to improve the human condition.
I do not see this as a subversion or watering-down of language at all. I
see it as a correct and appropriate use of language, but I do admit that my
interpretation of the word involves a lot more than preservation of
traditional usage. As you know from my posts over the years, I believe
strongly in preservation of language. But I do believe that everyone starts
out with an uninhibited and intuitive ability to make good art, and again,
if the concept of being an artist did not seem so lofty distant, we would
have a lot more good/great artists in the world.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Snail Scott on sun 24 aug 03
At 02:23 PM 8/24/03 -0400, Lili wrote:
>...some more about "artist" and why loose use of the term bugs me...
>It is wrong, I think, for a group of people in a category of professions to
>appropriate an honorific and rename themselves with it...I would find it
offensive if I ran into someone at
>a party and ask what she does and she says "Oh. I am a hero...
I don't believe your analogy holds up here.
The term 'artist' does not imply a superlative
or any honorific. It derives from roots like
'artifex' and in my mind, still means 'someone
who makes stuff' within the context of visual
arts. As Vince said, the result may be good,
bad or indifferent; the maker is still an artist.
It's a description of the nature of the pursuit,
not the quality of the outcome.
'Artist', in my perception, becomes a superlative
mainly when applied to practicioners of other
disciplines. To say that a plumber is an artist,
for example, is to imply that their work exceeds
the expectations of that craft by incorporating
those of another field - art. As such, it's a
metaphor. Its use as an honorific is flattering,
(that the properties of art should be so valued
by others,) but it doesn't mean all artists are
great, or good, or even better than a plumber. ;)
It's a generic, overused term, to be sure, but
generic terms have their uses. Bologna sandwiches,
beef Wellington and cornflakes are all 'food'.
Granite boulders, paving aggregate and diamonds
are all 'rocks'. Trombonists, nose-flute players
and folk singers are all musicians. (Though we
can, of course, apply the overarching term 'the
arts' and call them artists, too.)
-Snail
claybair on sun 24 aug 03
Sorry Lili....
I must disagree.
American Heritage Definition....
Artist
One, such as a painter, sculptor, or writer, who is able by virtue of
imagination and talent or skill to create works of aesthetic value,
especially in the fine arts.
A person whose work shows exceptional creative ability or skill: You are an
artist in the kitchen.
One, such as an actor or singer, who works in the performing arts.
One who is adept at an activity, especially one involving trickery or
deceit: a con artist.
[French artiste, from Old French, lettered person, from Medieval Latin
artista, from Latin ars, art-, art. See ar- in Indo-European Roots.]
I see no reason why I should call myself anything else. If I am "able by
virtue of imagination and talent or skill to create works of aesthetic
value" I see no reason to wait for someone else to knight me with the title.
If on the other hand I dub myself an artist and produce crap then that does
indeed involve trickery or deceit. In either case then I am, by definition,
still an artist!!!
I rest my case!
I still love ya Lili!
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
While throwing and keeping an eye, sort of, on a huge pot of applesauce, I
thought some more about "artist" and why loose use of the term bugs me.
It is wrong, I think, for a group of people in a category of professions to
appropriate an honorific and rename themselves with it. If people are
painters and sculptors and potters, and like that, that is what they should
call themselves. Not appropriate an honorific used to describe someone who
does something supremely well.
There are military men. Soldiers, flyers, marines, sailors etc. They have
ranks. And some are heroes. But is would be wrong, I think, for them to
call themselves "heroes." I would find it offensive if I ran into someone at
a party and ask what she does and she says "Oh. I am a hero...." Not so fast
my girl....
Jan L. Peterson on mon 25 aug 03
They can, however, say, I'm in the Military, or I'm a Fireman. A writer is an
artist, too. Depend upon your definition of the word. A pianist can be an
artist. Maybe, your military person is actually an engineer, or a strategist,
both of which take a certain artistic bent of the mind to be. Artists are not
artists because they earn degrees. They are artists because of what is
intrinsically inside their soul. Most of them can and do a variety of things well. Very
well. They've chosen one field to be special in. If they should change their
specialty, I have no doubt they would be just as successful. Jan, the Alleycat
Tom Sawyer on tue 26 aug 03
Lil,
I have found your posts on this subject - well interesting. But for myself,
I don't get hung up on words. If someone calls themselves a solider, there
just solidering. If someone is making pottery, then I willing to consider
them a potter; if someone is painting, I have no problem calling them
painters although if they are painting house, I would distinguish them as
house painters. Who care? If someone wants to call themselves a hero, I look
to myself for my definition of a hero. If someone wants to call themselves
an artist, there just making art; not necessarily good art which I would
infer from your post is your defintion of an artist. Just lay back and think
well your not a good artist. Life is short and definitions long and anxiety
and stress even longer. You would go nuts in our house; I am a "hopeful"
atheist and my wife frequently refers to me as the most religious person she
knows when she's not introducing me as doctor, lawyer and artist!!!!!! Ye
Gads!!!!!! Oh to be an Indian Chief.......
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Lily
Krakowski
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 1:23 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Vince: About "Artist" II
While throwing and keeping an eye, sort of, on a huge pot of applesauce, I
thought some more about "artist" and why loose use of the term bugs me.
It is wrong, I think, for a group of people in a category of professions to
appropriate an honorific and rename themselves with it. If people are
painters and sculptors and potters, and like that, that is what they should
call themselves. Not appropriate an honorific used to describe someone who
does something supremely well.
There are military men. Soldiers, flyers, marines, sailors etc. They have
ranks. And some are heroes. But is would be wrong, I think, for them to
call themselves "heroes." I would find it offensive if I ran into someone at
a party and ask what she does and she says "Oh. I am a hero...." Not so fast
my girl....
Ditto, same party, if I ran into someone who describes himself as an artist.
Not so fast, m'lad.
Off to check the applesauce....Smells so good...
Lili Krakowski
Constableville, N.Y.
Be of good courage....
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 26 aug 03
Hey Tom,
What about somewhere where maybe it 'matters'?
Like say a Surgical Theatre?
Surgeon asks for suction, gets a corned beef sandwhich in a
zip-lock, oweing to how the Nurse doesn't care what things
are called? ( or vice-versa...)
When or where does it matter I wonder?
In Life?
Or only in certain 'special' occasions?
What ever shall we do!
Best!
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Sawyer"
> Lil,
>
> I have found your posts on this subject - well
interesting. But for myself,
> I don't get hung up on words. If someone calls themselves
a solider, there
> just solidering. If someone is making pottery, then I
willing to consider
> them a potter; if someone is painting, I have no problem
calling them
> painters although if they are painting house, I would
distinguish them as
> house painters. Who care? If someone wants to call
themselves a hero, I look
> to myself for my definition of a hero. If someone wants to
call themselves
> an artist, there just making art; not necessarily good art
which I would
> infer from your post is your defintion of an artist. Just
lay back and think
> well your not a good artist. Life is short and definitions
long and anxiety
> and stress even longer. You would go nuts in our house; I
am a "hopeful"
> atheist and my wife frequently refers to me as the most
religious person she
> knows when she's not introducing me as doctor, lawyer and
artist!!!!!! Ye
> Gads!!!!!! Oh to be an Indian Chief.......
>
> Tom Sawyer
> tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf
Of Lily
> Krakowski
> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 1:23 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Vince: About "Artist" II
>
>
> While throwing and keeping an eye, sort of, on a huge pot
of applesauce, I
> thought some more about "artist" and why loose use of the
term bugs me.
>
> It is wrong, I think, for a group of people in a category
of professions to
> appropriate an honorific and rename themselves with it.
If people are
> painters and sculptors and potters, and like that, that is
what they should
> call themselves. Not appropriate an honorific used to
describe someone who
> does something supremely well.
>
> There are military men. Soldiers, flyers, marines,
sailors etc. They have
> ranks. And some are heroes. But is would be wrong, I
think, for them to
> call themselves "heroes." I would find it offensive if I
ran into someone at
> a party and ask what she does and she says "Oh. I am a
hero...." Not so fast
> my girl....
>
> Ditto, same party, if I ran into someone who describes
himself as an artist.
> Not so fast, m'lad.
>
> Off to check the applesauce....Smells so good...
>
>
>
>
> Lili Krakowski
> Constableville, N.Y.
>
> Be of good courage....
>
>
____________________________________________________________
________________
> __
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________
__________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at melpots@pclink.com.
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 27 aug 03
Oh!
Quite so Tom...!
For me...these are all casual enough in my acceptance of
them, as terms, more or less...I do not expect them to be
backed up by anything in particular.
While I cook often, it would never occur to me to say, upon
being asked what I 'do'...that I am a "Cook"...
Yet..many part time Artists may wish to be known primarily
as an Artist, I suppose, because there is more energy or
meaning to the occupation than to their other
occupation(s)...at least so far as saying what one 'does' is
concerned. Or their identity is happier with that
association...and...
I am a Cabinetmaker and Mechanic and whatnot who sometimes
makes or has made Pottery...
I can back these up to the rerquisites of anyone's otherwise
subjective expectation pretty much...if maybe even to find
that they know nothing about any of it...
While occasions of People telling me thay are an Artist,
allows me little guess as to just what medium, kind, sort,
or discipline IN Art they pursue...it is usually necessary
that I ask them further, "Oh! - What kind of 'Art'...?"
Then I may get to find they 'Paint'...they "Draw in Pencil",
or whatever...(And I allways wonder, why do they not simply
say so?)
No one ever askes me "What kind of
Cabinetmaking"...ever...usually they just launch into a
spellbinder of how their grandpap or uncle or someone could
"build" anything, and with one arm tied behind his back,
useing nothing but a bent screwdriver and a pen-knife or
some nonsense like that...blah-de-blah-de-blahhhhhhhh...
For me, while not a hung-up on definitions so far as I can
tell, I do find it convenient when I am able to find meaning
in them, to 'put' some value on a 'definition'...or to find
that it means something actual rather than merely allusury.
If someone tells me they are a Mechanic, I would like to
expect SOME aptitude, some familiarity with notions of
Mechanical systems, and some experience in dealing with, or
ministering to them...
I try and listen...'carefully'...
Sometimes People tell me they are an 'Engineer', and I get
all dewey eyed and thrilled and then I find they oversee
management of design proposal revisions for printed circuits
getting made in mexico or something and know NOTHING
WHATEVER about any actual Engineering...
They could say they were a specialist IN 'electrical
engineering as respects printed circuits', but that never
happens...
In their mind...they are an 'engineer'...
I like the 'qualifiers' when a distinction IS important...
There is a world of difference between an Engineer and
somebody who looks over the shoulders of draughtsmen
reviewing printed circuits.
Some one may say, "I am a Doctor"...Of Medicine? Of
Divinity? Of Philosophy? Of what? - to me I'd rather they
just said! THEN I have some idea what to expect...
Sigh...
See what I mean?
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Sawyer"
> Nope, don't buy into your argument; hope a nurse passes me
something to eat
> when I'm hungry. Really if I ask for an instrument and I'm
handed a beer, I
> have a dumb nurse and she wouldn't last the day. So a
kindergarden kid takes
> an art class and makes art and while they are creating
they are an artist.
> Thats not to say they are a good artist. Sure we care what
things are called
> but were open enough not to get hung up on definitions but
rather, I think,
> we should focus on results. Some one makes art and calls
themselves an
> artist, why should anyone get offended. I'm afraid if that
were the criteria
> a Picasso could say I'm the only artist in the world
because no one measures
> up to my standards. Gads, I like to think everyone who
makes art is an
> artist; everyone who cooks is a cook; everyone who makes
pottery is a
> potter; everyone who makes babies is a parent............
This is not to say
> they are good at what they do which is an entirely
different question
> because now we interject a value system. It seems to me
that everyone who
> gets hung up on definitions does so because they wish to
impose a value
> system on the definition. Thats not to argue that values
are unimportant,
> they are important to me. I have my own values. I just
don't believe values
> are absolute. Values, I believe, are the product of
genetics and environment
> and both are infinitely varied. Since I am unique in the
history of the
> world so is my value system and by the ways so is yours. I
doubt that you
> have ever found anyone "exactly" like you; we are all
different; enjoy the
> difference and try to understand them.
> Tom Sawyer
Tom Sawyer on wed 27 aug 03
Nope, don't buy into your argument; hope a nurse passes me something to eat
when I'm hungry. Really if I ask for an instrument and I'm handed a beer, I
have a dumb nurse and she wouldn't last the day. So a kindergarden kid takes
an art class and makes art and while they are creating they are an artist.
Thats not to say they are a good artist. Sure we care what things are called
but were open enough not to get hung up on definitions but rather, I think,
we should focus on results. Some one makes art and calls themselves an
artist, why should anyone get offended. I'm afraid if that were the criteria
a Picasso could say I'm the only artist in the world because no one measures
up to my standards. Gads, I like to think everyone who makes art is an
artist; everyone who cooks is a cook; everyone who makes pottery is a
potter; everyone who makes babies is a parent............ This is not to say
they are good at what they do which is an entirely different question
because now we interject a value system. It seems to me that everyone who
gets hung up on definitions does so because they wish to impose a value
system on the definition. Thats not to argue that values are unimportant,
they are important to me. I have my own values. I just don't believe values
are absolute. Values, I believe, are the product of genetics and environment
and both are infinitely varied. Since I am unique in the history of the
world so is my value system and by the ways so is yours. I doubt that you
have ever found anyone "exactly" like you; we are all different; enjoy the
difference and try to understand them.
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:38 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Vince: About "Artist" II
Hey Tom,
What about somewhere where maybe it 'matters'?
Like say a Surgical Theatre?
Surgeon asks for suction, gets a corned beef sandwhich in a
zip-lock, oweing to how the Nurse doesn't care what things
are called? ( or vice-versa...)
When or where does it matter I wonder?
In Life?
Or only in certain 'special' occasions?
What ever shall we do!
Best!
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Sawyer"
> Lil,
>
> I have found your posts on this subject - well
interesting. But for myself,
> I don't get hung up on words. If someone calls themselves
a solider, there
> just solidering. If someone is making pottery, then I
willing to consider
> them a potter; if someone is painting, I have no problem
calling them
> painters although if they are painting house, I would
distinguish them as
> house painters. Who care? If someone wants to call
themselves a hero, I look
> to myself for my definition of a hero. If someone wants to
call themselves
> an artist, there just making art; not necessarily good art
which I would
> infer from your post is your defintion of an artist. Just
lay back and think
> well your not a good artist. Life is short and definitions
long and anxiety
> and stress even longer. You would go nuts in our house; I
am a "hopeful"
> atheist and my wife frequently refers to me as the most
religious person she
> knows when she's not introducing me as doctor, lawyer and
artist!!!!!! Ye
> Gads!!!!!! Oh to be an Indian Chief.......
>
> Tom Sawyer
> tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf
Of Lily
> Krakowski
> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 1:23 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Vince: About "Artist" II
>
>
> While throwing and keeping an eye, sort of, on a huge pot
of applesauce, I
> thought some more about "artist" and why loose use of the
term bugs me.
>
> It is wrong, I think, for a group of people in a category
of professions to
> appropriate an honorific and rename themselves with it.
If people are
> painters and sculptors and potters, and like that, that is
what they should
> call themselves. Not appropriate an honorific used to
describe someone who
> does something supremely well.
>
> There are military men. Soldiers, flyers, marines,
sailors etc. They have
> ranks. And some are heroes. But is would be wrong, I
think, for them to
> call themselves "heroes." I would find it offensive if I
ran into someone at
> a party and ask what she does and she says "Oh. I am a
hero...." Not so fast
> my girl....
>
> Ditto, same party, if I ran into someone who describes
himself as an artist.
> Not so fast, m'lad.
>
> Off to check the applesauce....Smells so good...
>
>
>
>
> Lili Krakowski
> Constableville, N.Y.
>
> Be of good courage....
>
>
____________________________________________________________
________________
> __
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________
__________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at melpots@pclink.com.
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
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