Snail Scott on tue 26 aug 03
At 07:39 PM 8/26/03 -0400, you wrote:
>It is a Skutt 1027 single phase and the specs call for #6 wire and a 60
>amp breaker.
>The electrician who wired ran #8 wire with a 50 amp breaker.
#6 is the minimum! (If the run from the breaker
box is long, it should be even heavier than that.)
The electrician (like many) may never have dealt
with such high power needs in a residential-scale
context (or ever). Many just don't believe what
the manual tells them, and since they may not
keep the heavier wire around, they try to get by
with what they've got on hand. Slipshod practice.
Don't let them do it. -Snail
Carl Finch on tue 26 aug 03
At 07:39 PM 8/26/03 -0400, Don Whitehouse wrote:
>I recently leased new studio space in an old mill complex.
>The only problem is the wiring for the kiln.
>It is a Skutt 1027 single phase and the specs call for #6 wire and a 60
>amp breaker.
>The electrician who wired ran #8 wire with a 50 amp breaker.
>I protested, so he showed me on his ammeter that my kiln on high only drew
>43.8 amps.
>So what are the problems I'm likely to encounter? Should I insist on
>the "spec" wiring?
My Skutt KM1027 manual specifies #6 wire and 60 amp breaker, as does
yours. But it ALSO shows a draw of 48 amps! That strikes me as a little
too close to 50 for comfort!
I did my wiring myself and as I recall the #6 wire (3-conductor plus
ground) only cost about a dollar per foot. And the 60 amp breaker
certainly wouldn't be much more than a 50 amp one. Your electrician
certainly didn't save much money cutting that corner! (possibly he just
saved a trip back to the shop for the proper wire and breaker!)
I'm no NEC authority, but I think I've read that a constant load should
consume no more than 80% of the ampacity of a circuit. Certainly a kiln
would be that sort of constant-load device. If this is correct (you can
check with your local planning department--where you pulled the permit)
that would be 80% of 50 amps = 40 amps max constant draw allowed on your
present breaker!
--Carl
in Medford, Oregon
Don Whitehouse on tue 26 aug 03
I recently leased new studio space in an old mill complex.
The only problem is the wiring for the kiln.
It is a Skutt 1027 single phase and the specs call for #6 wire and a 60
amp breaker.
The electrician who wired ran #8 wire with a 50 amp breaker.
I protested, so he showed me on his ammeter that my kiln on high only drew
43.8 amps.
So what are the problems I'm likely to encounter? Should I insist on
the "spec" wiring?
Don in Rhode Island,hoping not to incinerate the neighborhood!
John Rodgers on tue 26 aug 03
Have him install the wiring per spec. 1) You will have an insurance
problem if you don't. 2) You will likely find that your breaker will
kick off as the system ages. 3) I had my kiln wired #6 @ 50 amps. As
long as the weather was cold, it was not a problem. But when the weather
got hot, the kiln would kick off line during a firing.
Have him do it right. After all, you are paying for it.
John Rodgers
Birmingham, AL
Don Whitehouse wrote:
>I recently leased new studio space in an old mill complex.
>The only problem is the wiring for the kiln.
>It is a Skutt 1027 single phase and the specs call for #6 wire and a 60
>amp breaker.
>The electrician who wired ran #8 wire with a 50 amp breaker.
>I protested, so he showed me on his ammeter that my kiln on high only drew
>43.8 amps.
>So what are the problems I'm likely to encounter? Should I insist on
>the "spec" wiring?
>
>
>Don in Rhode Island,hoping not to incinerate the neighborhood!
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
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>
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>
>
>
Kenneth D. Westfall on wed 27 aug 03
Difference in cost #6 and #8 is peanuts. Don't let him sell you more
problems!! When you go to replace the elements it will draw more
amps. Kiln company's don't put in wiring specs so electricians know best.
Insist on getting all copper wire with a disconnect at the kiln (if its to
be hardwired) and what Skutt specs for your kiln period!!
At 07:39 PM 08/26/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>I recently leased new studio space in an old mill complex.
>The only problem is the wiring for the kiln.
>It is a Skutt 1027 single phase and the specs call for #6 wire and a 60
>amp breaker.
>The electrician who wired ran #8 wire with a 50 amp breaker.
>I protested, so he showed me on his ammeter that my kiln on high only drew
>43.8 amps.
>So what are the problems I'm likely to encounter? Should I insist on
>the "spec" wiring?
>
>
>Don in Rhode Island,hoping not to incinerate the neighborhood!
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Kenneth D. Westfall
Pine Hill Pottery
R.D. #2 Box 6AA
Harrisville, WV 26362
kenneth@pinehillpottery.com
http://www.pinehillpottery.com
Arnold Howard on wed 27 aug 03
Your kiln might draw only 43.8 amps because the elements have aged. If
you install new elements, amperage may go up to 48, which is too close
to a 50 amp breaker. Especially in the summer, the breaker will probably
trip.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P.
arnoldhoward@att.net
From: Don Whitehouse
> The electrician who wired ran #8 wire with a 50 amp breaker.
> I protested, so he showed me on his ammeter that my kiln on high only
drew
> 43.8 amps.
> So what are the problems I'm likely to encounter?
wayneinkeywest on wed 27 aug 03
My kiln also shows a draw of 48 amps, and the manufacturer recommends
at LEAST a 50 amp breaker (I called and checked). My electrician
recommends no less than #6, and asid he would feel better running
#4, and putting in a 70 amp breaker.
I concur. Spend once, enjoy forever. The elec told me that the
difference between #6 with a 50 amp breaker,
and #4 with a 70 amp breaker should be about $30.
For $30, I'm not even going to argue. That's ONE pot. Oh Puhleeze!
I spend more than that on lunch.
Wayne in Key West
> Your kiln might draw only 43.8 amps because the elements have aged. If
> you install new elements, amperage may go up to 48, which is too close
> to a 50 amp breaker. Especially in the summer, the breaker will probably
> trip.
Jeremy/Bonnie Hellman on wed 27 aug 03
Is there anyone else besides me who finds it terrifying that a (presumably)
licensed electrician would ignore the manufacturer's specs? (This is a
rhetorical question.)
Don, if your electrician is NOT licensed, then I don't know why you would
have hired him.
Don, I would telephone Skutt or email them and ask this question, although
by now you've gotten quite a few replies on clayart giving you (and your
know-it-all) electrician the reasons for using the #6 wire and 60 amp
breaker.
And then I would tell your electrician to re-do the work correctly, without
additional charge to you.
Bonnie
From: Don Whitehouse
Subject: kiln wiring again
I recently leased new studio space in an old mill complex.
The only problem is the wiring for the kiln.
It is a Skutt 1027 single phase and the specs call for #6 wire and a 60
amp breaker.
The electrician who wired ran #8 wire with a 50 amp breaker.
I protested, so he showed me on his ammeter that my kiln on high only drew
43.8 amps.
So what are the problems I'm likely to encounter? Should I insist on
the "spec" wiring?
Don in Rhode Island,hoping not to incinerate the neighborhood!
Cindi Anderson on thu 28 aug 03
I would be surprised if a kiln manufacturer would tell you a 50 amp breaker
is ok for a 48 amp kiln. All the major ones definitely say use a 60 amp
breaker.
Cindi
BigCeramicStore.com
----- Original Message -----
> My kiln also shows a draw of 48 amps, and the manufacturer recommends
> at LEAST a 50 amp breaker (I called and checked).
Don Whitehouse on thu 28 aug 03
Thanks for reinforcements!
I got the landlord to force his electrician to put in the #6 with 60 amp
breaker we originally agreed on.
I told him the lease would be off if he couldnt comply. Guess a couple of
bucks for wire beats a year of rent!
Don
piedpotterhamelin@COMCAST.NET on thu 28 aug 03
One has to imagine electricity going through a wire as being like water in a
pipe. If your amperage is say, equal to a quantity of water, imagine that
volume of water passing through various pipes of increasing diameter. Too
large of a pipe serves no purpose and reduces the force of the water.
Secondly, it is the clamping area in your kiln sitter that is built for a
specific wire. A number 4 wire in a sitter box sounds very difficult to
install and to fit, and I believe, would not clamp down into the terminal.
Bigger is not necessarily better.
Rick
> My kiln also shows a draw of 48 amps, and the manufacturer recommends
> at LEAST a 50 amp breaker (I called and checked). My electrician
> recommends no less than #6, and asid he would feel better running
> #4, and putting in a 70 amp breaker.
> I concur. Spend once, enjoy forever. The elec told me that the
> difference between #6 with a 50 amp breaker,
> and #4 with a 70 amp breaker should be about $30.
> For $30, I'm not even going to argue. That's ONE pot. Oh Puhleeze!
> I spend more than that on lunch.
> Wayne in Key West
>
> > Your kiln might draw only 43.8 amps because the elements have aged. If
> > you install new elements, amperage may go up to 48, which is too close
> > to a 50 amp breaker. Especially in the summer, the breaker will probably
> > trip.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Snail Scott on thu 28 aug 03
At 12:05 PM 8/28/03 +0000, you wrote:
>...the clamping area in your kiln sitter that is built for a
>specific wire. A number 4 wire in a sitter box sounds very difficult to
>install and to fit...
For runs of longer than a certain distance from the
breaker box, #6 is inadequate; you MUST use #4.
Don't run the #4 wire directly into the kiln, but
to a junction box (if hard-wiring) or an outlet (if
using a plug.)
-Snail
Carl Finch on thu 28 aug 03
At 12:05 PM 8/28/03 +0000, Rick, piedpotterhamelin@COMCAST.NET wrote:
>One has to imagine electricity going through a wire as being like water in a
>pipe. If your amperage is say, equal to a quantity of water, imagine that
>volume of water passing through various pipes of increasing diameter. Too
>large of a pipe serves no purpose and reduces the force of the water.
This "analogy" is just plain INVALID for electricity, and your conclusion
is dangerously misleading!
>Secondly, it is the clamping area in your kiln sitter that is built for a
>specific wire. A number 4 wire in a sitter box sounds very difficult to
>install and to fit, and I believe, would not clamp down into the terminal.
What you say here is possibly true, but irrelevant. Because the wire from
the electrical panel (breaker box) that supplies the 240v power to the kiln
area does not terminate in the kiln itself (or the sitter), but rather in a
wall-mounted junction box, switch box, or receptacle box. And from there
electricity gets to the kiln via a power cord (with plug) or appropriately
sized, hard-wired cable.
>Bigger is not necessarily better.
In this case it is. For as one poster said, it would allow a bigger kiln
in the future.
--Carl
in Medford, Oregon
wayneinkeywest on thu 28 aug 03
Not into a sitter box. Only to the 220VAC outlet.
Even with a disconnect in-line, I'm not crazy enough to leave it plugged in
in the lightning capital of the US!
Wayne in Key West
> One has to imagine electricity going through a wire as being like water in
a
> pipe. If your amperage is say, equal to a quantity of water, imagine that
> volume of water passing through various pipes of increasing diameter. Too
> large of a pipe serves no purpose and reduces the force of the water.
> Secondly, it is the clamping area in your kiln sitter that is built for a
> specific wire. A number 4 wire in a sitter box sounds very difficult to
> install and to fit, and I believe, would not clamp down into the
terminal.
> Bigger is not necessarily better.
> Rick
piedpotterhamelin@COMCAST.NET on fri 29 aug 03
Sorry about not being clear enough. I would not direct wire to the Main
either; I have a disconnect as well. ON Each kiln. I never liked the 230/240
plugs as they will eventually burn. Disconnects are only$25, more or less.
> Not into a sitter box. Only to the 220VAC outlet.
> Even with a disconnect in-line, I'm not crazy enough to leave it plugged in
> in the lightning capital of the US!
> Wayne in Key West
>
> > One has to imagine electricity going through a wire as being like water in
> a
> > pipe. If your amperage is say, equal to a quantity of water, imagine that
> > volume of water passing through various pipes of increasing diameter. Too
> > large of a pipe serves no purpose and reduces the force of the water.
> > Secondly, it is the clamping area in your kiln sitter that is built for a
> > specific wire. A number 4 wire in a sitter box sounds very difficult to
> > install and to fit, and I believe, would not clamp down into the
> terminal.
> > Bigger is not necessarily better.
> > Rick
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
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