Fredrick Paget on mon 1 sep 03
>dear clayarters,
>i recently had a very scary experience and i want to share it with you in
>hopes that i can spare others from going through what i did with
>possible worse
>outcomes than i had.
You were lucky to get off so easy!
Three years ago I got a snoot full of carbon monoxide from my gas
kiln started to walk away fainted and fell down the stair on to my
deck, hitting a cast iron railing with my face. Crushed the left side
of my face and permanently blinded me in the left eye.
I think I was single handily responsible for my HMO dropping our
county from its coverage. Didn't cost me a cent . They paid for it all
.
I was sitting right next to the kiln and watching the oxy probe and
pyrometer. The kiln is outside but in between three buildings that
sort of close it in.
Fred
--
From Fred Paget, Marin County, California, USA
fredrick@well.com
Alycia Goeke on mon 1 sep 03
dear clayarters,
i recently had a very scary experience and i want to share it with you in
hopes that i can spare others from going through what i did with possible worse
outcomes than i had.
i have been potting for several years. i worked at a community art center
until recently when i was able to open up my own studio at home. i have a 400
sq.ft area that is L-shaped. my wheel is at one end and my electric kiln is at
the other. there is a large widow directly across from my kiln, maybe four feet
away. recently, i found a good deal on an industrial size and strength window
fan. i installed it in hopes that it could create a draft helping to reduce
the heat and smelly fumes.
i was pleasantly surprised to find this to be so. usually when i bisque the
studio is too hot to be in. as i walked back into the kiln area i could feel
the pull of the fan and the heat being channeled out. the smell was greatly
reduced as well. i decided to stay out there for awhile and do some work. i took a
break for lunch and also several times left the studio, going outside, or to
answer the phone, etc. by mid-afternoon, i started to feel very tired. i
decided to clean up for the day. the kiln had several more hours to go. i had also
noticed earlier that my cheeks were really red (another symptom of CO
poisoning) and i thought that was strange cause it wasn't hot in the studio. i thought
maybe i was just excited cause i was making some pots i really liked!
anyway.....
as i went into the house, i felt very strange, disoriented. i was confused
and couldn't figure out what to do. i showered thinking it would clear my head
but it got worse. luckily my husband was in the basement working and i was able
to get to him. i felt very far away from myself and when i tried to think, i
couldn't remember the names of my family members or friends. nothing seemed
right. i lost my periphial vision. i got really frightened. i thought i was
stroking out or something. my husband called a potter friend of ours because he
suspected it was the fumes in the kiln (smart guy). i was using a new clay body
and he thought maybe it contained something harmful. our friend looked it up
in the potter's dictionary and said it sounded like carbon monoxide poisoning.
by that time, we were already on our way to the hospital who confirmed
through my symptoms and blood work what the book had said. i had carbon monoxide
poisoning. they put me on straight oxygen for a couple of hours and then sent me
home with some tylenol 3. i had an incredible headache that lasted for several
days.
since this incident, i have ordered an orton kiln vent 2 system for my kiln,
purchased a digital carbon monoxide detector, and have made a vow, even with
all these measures in place, never to work in my studio when the kiln is firing
again.
i pass this on because this is a hazard that i was unaware of and one that
could of had disastrous effects. breathing high concentrations of carbon
monoxide can be lethal in minutes. breathing low concentrations over time is
dangerous too. according to the safety information on carbon monoxide, long term
exposure to low levels can cause permanent heart and brain damage and after this
experience, i believe it!
i can think right off the top of my head three places where bisque kilns are
fired without proper ventilation; the community art center where i took my
first classes and worked, the high school where my daughters attended and took
ceramics and the college ceramics art department in our town. granted, all the
kilns in these places are over in a corner or in the next room, but none of
them are vented and a loosely fitted door or an open window (even with a powerful
fan) is not enough to keep this deadly molecule from polluting the immediate
area.
luckily, i am ok and it is my hope that by sharing this, someone else will be
spared this potentially dangerous situation. this web site has more
information on carbon monoxide poisoning or just type 'carbon monoxide' into any search
engine for a ton of helpful information. http://www.epa.gov/iaq/co.html
take care and happy potting from a grateful one that lives in oklahoma where
it is finally raining!!!
alycia goeke~
Louis Katz on tue 2 sep 03
I know it is possible to create CO in an electric kiln. I wonder how
much organic matter there must be before there is a reasonable
possibility of CO poisoning from an electric kiln. I would never have
an un-vented kiln in a room I worked in, The time for that foolishness
has long past.
My question is this how do I figure out how much organic matter is a
problem. I have a huge studio and I have kiln vents and general
ventilation to the outside. I want to figure a margin of safety. Other
issues will probably bring walls around the electric kilns in the next
year, but I also need to figure out what kind of passive ventilation to
include should the blowers go out during a firing. Anybody have an who,
wheres, or hows? I probably could get an answer from Minona If I could
remember how to spell her name.
We are fortunate to live in a mild climate as far as firing goes, but
electrical devices do not hold up in our salt air.
Louis
David Lane on tue 2 sep 03
I recently enclosed my back porch and turned it into my new pottery
studio. Along with the new Bailey wheel, kiln and extruder, I installed
smoke and carbon monoxide sensors. The two test firings went fine and a
few days ago I finally did my first bisque in the Bailey 2927 electric
kiln. When the temperature reached around 500F I heard a "beep, beep,
beep" coming from the studio. I thought maybe it was the smoke detector,
but it was actually the carbon monoxide detector that was beeping. Scared
the heck outta me!
Although I had the Bailey kiln vent going and a window on the other side
of the room open, it obviously wasn't enough ventilation to pull all the
fumes out. I quickly opened the doors to the outside and put a fan in the
doorway to pull fresh air into the room - and then I got the heck out of
there. A few minutes later the detector stopped beeping.
Cheers,
David
On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:46:30 EDT, Alycia Goeke wrote:
>hi fred,
>your letter points out how dangerous carbon monoxide is. after my
exposure to
>it i have done some reading and like you say one large dose of it can have
>really potentially lethal effects. i have gotten several letters from
others
>offline who question whether or not carbon monoxide can be produced from
an
>electric appliance. as i understand it in this case, it releases from the
clay body
>itself. the act of combustion/heat with the medium can cause the reaction
to
>occur.
>
>i do feel fortunate and i am sorry to hear how much of an impact this had
on
>you. so many times i think we take an attitude about things, like, ehh,
that
>won't happen to me, or we tend to think it had something to do with the
>individual user, instead of acknowledging that there is a real threat and
to take
>measures to assure our own safety. it's that invincible thing i think we
all have
>to some degree. anyway....i will never again think it's ok to be around a
>firing kiln with just an open widow or even a garage door open. the thing
that
>most impressed me about the whole experience was; one minute i was ok and
the
>next i wasn't and i really wasn't. that is the big big danger with this
stuff.
>you can be overcome by it before realizing anything is wrong and in some
cases
>by the time you do, it's too late.
>
>thanks for you reply and take care,
>alycia
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
____
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Alycia Goeke on tue 2 sep 03
hi fred,
your letter points out how dangerous carbon monoxide is. after my exposure to
it i have done some reading and like you say one large dose of it can have
really potentially lethal effects. i have gotten several letters from others
offline who question whether or not carbon monoxide can be produced from an
electric appliance. as i understand it in this case, it releases from the clay body
itself. the act of combustion/heat with the medium can cause the reaction to
occur.
i do feel fortunate and i am sorry to hear how much of an impact this had on
you. so many times i think we take an attitude about things, like, ehh, that
won't happen to me, or we tend to think it had something to do with the
individual user, instead of acknowledging that there is a real threat and to take
measures to assure our own safety. it's that invincible thing i think we all have
to some degree. anyway....i will never again think it's ok to be around a
firing kiln with just an open widow or even a garage door open. the thing that
most impressed me about the whole experience was; one minute i was ok and the
next i wasn't and i really wasn't. that is the big big danger with this stuff.
you can be overcome by it before realizing anything is wrong and in some cases
by the time you do, it's too late.
thanks for you reply and take care,
alycia
Pat K Kratzke on tue 2 sep 03
In case Fred and Alycia's testimonies were not enough, I'll throw on my
own: I was wrongly reassured that carbon monoxide was not an issue with
electric kilns, and so during a firing my husband and I were going in and
out of the studio, doing some cleaning, etc. The large double door next
to the kiln was open, along with all the studio windows, mostly to vent
the heat. We (fortunately) were not spending a whole LOT of time in
there, only 3 or 4 minutes at a time, but we were in and out of the
studio quite a bit. After a while, we both had a kind of a spacy "blah"
feeling, and headaches, which is VERY rare for him so I knew something
was wrong. We figured it must have been CO poisoning, and we were very
thankful that we had not been more significantly exposed. So YES, an
electric kiln can throw off carbon monoxide - as stated previously this
is probably from the carbon being released from the clay body. So
caution, everyone - do not take this lightly! Do not trust windows,
doors and fans to do a proper venting job. And even if you have a fancy
venting system built into your kiln and/or studio, get a CO monitor as a
backup. This is nasty stuff, and can have long-term consequences.
Patti Kratzke
Kingston, WA
pkpotts@juno.com
On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:46:30 EDT Alycia Goeke
writes:
hi fred,
your letter points out how dangerous carbon monoxide is. after my
exposure to it i have done some reading and like you say one large dose
of it can have really potentially lethal effects. i have gotten several
letters from others offline who question whether or not carbon monoxide
can be produced from an electric appliance. as i understand it in this
case, it releases from the clay body itself. the act of combustion/heat
with the medium can cause the reaction to occur.
>
> i do feel fortunate and i am sorry to hear how much of an impact
> this had on
> you. so many times i think we take an attitude about things, like,
> ehh, that
> won't happen to me, or we tend to think it had something to do with
> the
> individual user, instead of acknowledging that there is a real
> threat and to take
> measures to assure our own safety. it's that invincible thing i
> think we all have
> to some degree. anyway....i will never again think it's ok to be
> around a
> firing kiln with just an open widow or even a garage door open. the
> thing that
> most impressed me about the whole experience was; one minute i was
> ok and the
> next i wasn't and i really wasn't. that is the big big danger with
> this stuff.
> you can be overcome by it before realizing anything is wrong and in
> some cases
> by the time you do, it's too late.
>
> thanks for you reply and take care,
> alycia
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________
_____
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
________________________________________________________________
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Ron Roy on wed 3 sep 03
Dear Alycia,
Thank you so much for posting this - many potters do not understand that
this can happen with electric kilns as well as fuel burning kilns.
Carbon monoxide monitors are easily found now - and should be installed in
any room in which combustion is going on - including wood stoves and gas
furnaces. If you had had one plugged in you would have had the warning you
needed to get out before you got that sick.
There are many CO monitors now that only warn when the levels are quite
high - you want one that measures even small amounts.
Carbon monoxide is insidious and will travel through walls easily - CO
detectors are cheap and having a few around a house - especially if your
kiln is in the same building as your living area - is wise.
Fans can give a false sense of security - if the wind is blowing the wrong
way they cannot do a proper job of drawing in fresh air. I have even seen
situations where the exit air was coming back into the same room.
It is the same with kiln vents - I can smell products of combustion in my
studio from a bisque firing in a small electric kiln - even though my Baily
vent is on and operating properly with a window open - the CO detector has
never indicated any CO - but I check it often.
I have had many close calls with CO in my early days as a potter - before I
knew better. Never again!
RR
>i recently had a very scary experience and i want to share it with you in
>hopes that i can spare others from going through what i did with possible worse
>outcomes than i had.
>
>i have been potting for several years. i worked at a community art center
>until recently when i was able to open up my own studio at home. i have a 400
>sq.ft area that is L-shaped. my wheel is at one end and my electric kiln is at
>the other. there is a large widow directly across from my kiln, maybe four feet
>away. recently, i found a good deal on an industrial size and strength window
>fan. i installed it in hopes that it could create a draft helping to reduce
>the heat and smelly fumes.
>
>i was pleasantly surprised to find this to be so. usually when i bisque the
>studio is too hot to be in. as i walked back into the kiln area i could feel
>the pull of the fan and the heat being channeled out. the smell was greatly
>reduced as well. i decided to stay out there for awhile and do some work.
>i took a
>break for lunch and also several times left the studio, going outside, or to
>answer the phone, etc. by mid-afternoon, i started to feel very tired. i
>decided to clean up for the day. the kiln had several more hours to go. i
>had also
>noticed earlier that my cheeks were really red (another symptom of CO
>poisoning) and i thought that was strange cause it wasn't hot in the
>studio. i thought
>maybe i was just excited cause i was making some pots i really liked!
>anyway.....
>
>as i went into the house, i felt very strange, disoriented. i was confused
>and couldn't figure out what to do. i showered thinking it would clear my head
>but it got worse. luckily my husband was in the basement working and i was able
>to get to him. i felt very far away from myself and when i tried to think, i
>couldn't remember the names of my family members or friends. nothing seemed
>right. i lost my periphial vision. i got really frightened. i thought i was
>stroking out or something. my husband called a potter friend of ours because he
>suspected it was the fumes in the kiln (smart guy). i was using a new clay body
>and he thought maybe it contained something harmful. our friend looked it up
>in the potter's dictionary and said it sounded like carbon monoxide poisoning.
>
>by that time, we were already on our way to the hospital who confirmed
>through my symptoms and blood work what the book had said. i had carbon
>monoxide
>poisoning. they put me on straight oxygen for a couple of hours and then
>sent me
>home with some tylenol 3. i had an incredible headache that lasted for several
>days.
>
>since this incident, i have ordered an orton kiln vent 2 system for my kiln,
>purchased a digital carbon monoxide detector, and have made a vow, even with
>all these measures in place, never to work in my studio when the kiln is firing
>again.
>
>i pass this on because this is a hazard that i was unaware of and one that
>could of had disastrous effects. breathing high concentrations of carbon
>monoxide can be lethal in minutes. breathing low concentrations over time is
>dangerous too. according to the safety information on carbon monoxide,
>long term
>exposure to low levels can cause permanent heart and brain damage and
>after this
>experience, i believe it!
>
>i can think right off the top of my head three places where bisque kilns are
>fired without proper ventilation; the community art center where i took my
>first classes and worked, the high school where my daughters attended and took
>ceramics and the college ceramics art department in our town. granted, all the
>kilns in these places are over in a corner or in the next room, but none of
>them are vented and a loosely fitted door or an open window (even with a
>powerful
>fan) is not enough to keep this deadly molecule from polluting the immediate
>area.
>
>luckily, i am ok and it is my hope that by sharing this, someone else will be
>spared this potentially dangerous situation. this web site has more
>information on carbon monoxide poisoning or just type 'carbon monoxide'
>into any search
>engine for a ton of helpful information. http://www.epa.gov/iaq/co.html
>alycia goeke~
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Alycia Goeke on wed 3 sep 03
hi david,
i'm glad to know that your monitor went off like that. hopefully the one i
bought will be as sensitive. i do know that all detectors are not created equal.
i spent a little more for the one i got but it has a digital readout that
monitors and keeps track of previous levels. it has a loud four beep cycle that
continues to sound off until safe levels are reached and the system is reset.
it's interesting to realize that carbon monoxide poisoning can be a real
problem for potters and also surprising that so many of us didn't know about it.
your new studio sounds wonderful! i am happy for you.
here's to making lots of pots ~
alycia
Alycia Goeke on wed 3 sep 03
dear ron,
thanks for your reply. i guess this would be considered my 'early years' at
least when it comes to making pots. i was taught to fire the kilns at the
studio where i worked but we never had discussions about carbon monoxide; just that
it was probably not a good idea to be around the kiln in the early burn off
stage.
i agree with you totally about the fan creating a false sense of security and
the importance of having more than one detector. i have one in my studio and
several others in my house. i did get the ones that monitor even very low
levels because that too can be dangerous over time.
i'm glad you appreciated the post. my potter friend who helped my husband
figure out what was going on with me asked if i minded if he told others about my
experience, which was sweet, he didn't want to embarrass me. but i didn't and
don't feel that way. i took what i thought were precautionary measures, i
just didn't realize the risk involved. i have learned so much from so many
people, yourself included, i am just grateful to be here and to be able to share
some of what i've learned.
take care and happy potting,
alycia
Ron Roy on wed 3 sep 03
Hi Louis,
Best I can suggest is - monitor the CO - you will get a good idea about
when it starts to build up - the facinating thing is how fast it builds up.
The better the CO detector (read expensive) the more sure you will be of
the amounts.
When the firing is over you are tempted to think the danger is over - flush
the studio with fresh air - till the monitor says 0 and it's all gone
right?
Used to do that in my old studio - middle of winter - close the door and
get warm - CO monitor goes right back up - seems it's soaked into
everything and comes right out
I favour two - side by side - to get some idea of how accurate the common
ones are - about $50 at home depot - and you can get them plug in - with or
without battery backup.
Monona has some much needed information on CO and levels and monitors in
Vol 17, No. 02 (Feb 2003) of her newsletter. She recommends the NightHawk
but notes that they do not warn soon enough to protect everyone - and well
under the EPA limits - so you have to watch them. Best to put them where
they are right in your face.
There is a new type for $100 from Aeromedix - much better - go to
www.aeromedix.com
Contact ACTS
http://www.caseweb.com/ACTS
Her news letter costs $20 US per year - one a month - not all pottery
related of course but interesting when covered.
RR
>I know it is possible to create CO in an electric kiln. I wonder how
>much organic matter there must be before there is a reasonable
>possibility of CO poisoning from an electric kiln. I would never have
>an un-vented kiln in a room I worked in, The time for that foolishness
>has long past.
>My question is this how do I figure out how much organic matter is a
>problem. I have a huge studio and I have kiln vents and general
>ventilation to the outside. I want to figure a margin of safety. Other
>issues will probably bring walls around the electric kilns in the next
>year, but I also need to figure out what kind of passive ventilation to
>include should the blowers go out during a firing. Anybody have an who,
>wheres, or hows? I probably could get an answer from Minona If I could
>remember how to spell her name.
>We are fortunate to live in a mild climate as far as firing goes, but
>electrical devices do not hold up in our salt air.
>
>Louis
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Michael Wendt on thu 4 sep 03
One important note about monoxide poisoning: it is cumulative. Several small
doses in close temporal proximity add up. This is because carbon monoxide
binds with the hemaglobin in blood and prevents the transport of oxygen by
that blood cell. If enough time elapses between doses, the blood cells are
replaced with new ones that work. If further exposure occurs, too many blood
cells can no longer ransport oxygen and you feel ill, or die.
Kiln vents do more than remove the noxious fumes. They also add fresh oxygen
to the kiln enevelope and this aids in the complete combustion of the
organic matter present in most clays. If there is not enough oxygen to
"burn" all the carbon, carbon just steals an oxygen from a neighboring CO2
to form CO.
Thus vents also assure better firing results by removing gas forming agents
before they can cause blisters and pin holes.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
wendtpot@lewiston.com
Kat on thu 4 sep 03
That is one bone of contention for me. I am still amazed at
how some people have a very nonchalant attitude about something
that is a known danger. Once I brought in the fire department to
check carbon monoxide levels while I was firing the kiln and it came
back dangerously high. (in the 1000ppm by the kiln) Where 200ppm
a person should only be in the room from a 2-3 hour period.
and all the co-workers said was, we will open this window here and
it should solve the problem. Easy to say when they are not firing
the kiln, and I am the one going home with a headache.
Since, we did some repairs to the kiln, but by no means do I trust it.
Kat in the Hat
kat@digitalfire.com
-----------------------------------
"Do or do not, there is no try"
Yoda
Alycia Goeke on thu 4 sep 03
hi kat,
i agree with you. i am the person who wrote the original post about CO. it
has been interesting to watch what some of the others in my potting community
have done with the information. some people acted like it had something to do
with user error. like it was a case of carelessness. people are quick to say
that has NEVER happened to me, so....i open the garage door, or i have fans, or
wow, too bad....i guess that's your luck kind of attitude. very strange.
everyone said they were glad i was ok, but some just act like it was an isolated
incident that won't happen to them. these are people that have unsafe studios
where others work.
i'm glad it's never happened to them because it is a very intense thing to go
through. and now that i posted, i have gotten enough feedback to realize that
this is a well known fact and many have had exposure to it. and it's
upsetting to think that so many don't take it seriously. not enough to make sure
precautions are in place in the teaching end of it and also the technical with the
use of vents and monitors and not firing when students are present.
i used to do a lot of the bisque and later on gas firings at the art center
where i learned to work with clay. i frequently would get headaches and be bone
tired at the end of the day...
i'm sure it had to do with CO exposure. i feel like i am on some kind of
crusade against unsafe firing practices. i don't want to be a fanatic about it and
everyone has the right to have whatever kind of set up they desire but i
don't have to put myself in jeopardy and i won't be still about it if i come into
another community kind of setup if it's not handled in a safe way.
take care,
alycia
David Coggins on fri 5 sep 03
Hi All,
Regarding Workplace Safety and Health in general, Monona Rossol's book "The
Artist's Complete Health and Safety Guide" contains much good information
about risks involved in our industry. There is a chapter about ceramics, and
lots more really good info.
Monona Rossol is a highly respected expert in the US, Canada and
internationally in the field of workplace safety.
I can recommend the book, and I hope to publish some extracts (with
permission) on my website in the future.
Regards
Dave Coggins
David & Elaine Coggins
dcoggins@bigpond.com
www.users.bigpond.com/dcoggins
Alycia Goeke on fri 5 sep 03
hi michael,
that is why even after i left the studio, my symptoms increased. my exposure
had reached a level where there was a cascading effect. i don't know if i was
close to death, but i definitely was in a very altered state and one that
effected my mental capacity greatly.
on my own the doctor said it would have taken 4- 5 hours for my body to
metabolize the CO, still leaving me with a horrible headache, but with the help of
the pure oxygen, within just a few minutes, my cognitive processes started to
return. i could breath better and felt more like myself.
from my readings, being exposed to low levels of CO over time, compromises
the body as well, due to the information you provided. it can cause heart and
brain damage.
it's good to know that the kiln vent will create a cleaner firing. the need
for a secondary source of fresh air is still recommended and of course the
monitors.
thanks for the information,
alycia
Kathi LeSueur on fri 5 sep 03
kat@DIGITALFIRE.COM wrote:
> ... I am still amazed at how some people have a very nonchalant
> attitude about something
> that is a known danger.... all the co-workers said was, we will open
> this window here and
> it should solve the problem.
When I put an addition on my studio and moved the kiln inside carbon
monoxide poisonig was a consideration. We did a number of things to
assure that fumes did not drift into the work area. First, there is a
wall between the two sides. It is insulated and covered with fire
resistant drywall. Second, we had an eight foot hood made to pull out
most of the fumes. And to add extra assurance we put two turbines in the
roof. I think the turbines were one of the best decisions we made. We've
been able to keep fumes to a minimum. But we still stay out of that room
except to check the kiln when firing.
Kathi
Ron Roy on sun 7 sep 03
Hi Dave,
Thanks for posting this - I could not agree more.
Don't forget to check with her - she will want to see what you put up to
make sure it is complete.
Let me know when it is up so I can recommend it to others.
RR
>Regarding Workplace Safety and Health in general, Monona Rossol's book "The
>Artist's Complete Health and Safety Guide" contains much good information
>about risks involved in our industry. There is a chapter about ceramics, and
>lots more really good info.
>
>Monona Rossol is a highly respected expert in the US, Canada and
>internationally in the field of workplace safety.
>
>I can recommend the book, and I hope to publish some extracts (with
>permission) on my website in the future.
>
>Regards
>
>Dave Coggins
>David & Elaine Coggins
>dcoggins@bigpond.com
>www.users.bigpond.com/dcoggins
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
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