David Hendley on tue 2 sep 03
Lily, I addressed this question in a "Comment" in Ceramics Monthly in 1999
called "In Ceramics 'handmade' means 'hand' made".
Molded ceramics are, in my opinion, not handmade and thus I don't regard
the process in the same light as handmade pottery.
The bottom line is the potter's hand does not shape the clay. When using
electric potters wheels, extruders, digital pyrometers, and pug mills the
potter still shapes the clay. Extruders are included in the list because the
clay is not simply squirted out of the machine, it is manipulated after
being extruded.
Here are a few paragraphs from the essay:
Unlike most art and craft media, the potter's hands are the primary tools
used to make pottery. The wood-worker needs a saw and a drill, the stone
sculptor needs a hammer and a chisel, and the metalworker needs a torch and
a file to shape his work. The potter does his shaping with his hands, and
the clay records everything the hands do. This suggests a logical standard
for judging whether or not a pot is "handmade"; namely, did a hand shape it?
Once any kind of mold or template determines the final shape of the piece,
it's not "hand" made, or "handmade" in the literal sense.
There are other criteria that are useful for judging a piece of pottery as
handmade or not. One is to question how much skill, or training, was
required to make the piece. Workers in ceramics factories can be trained in
a few days to pour molds or press pottery. On the other hand, learning to
skillfully manipulate plastic clay into desired shapes takes years of
practice. Yes, I know that great skill and experience was required to make
that mold. Well, the mold itself is handmade. Another useful question is,
"What would be involved if the design of the piece were changed slightly,
say made a half inch wider?" For molded pottery this would require a
complete retooling, while for a potter shaping plastic clay by hand it would
simply mean that she would start with a little more clay and remember to
make the form a little wider. It is this quick and easy evolution of form
that allows an accomplished potter to grow and to breathe life into her
continuously refined work.
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
> Perhaps some serious discussion is needed as to why making molds and using
> one's own molds and like that is considered inferior. Why them what makes
> things in molds are discriminated against. Children of a Lesser Muse.
>
Lily Krakowski on tue 2 sep 03
Perhaps some serious discussion is needed as to why making molds and using
one's own molds and like that is considered inferior. Why them what makes
things in molds are discriminated against. Children of a Lesser Muse.
Now those who use press molds, those who use extruders, those who use
jiggers are not, as far as I know, discriminated against.
As far as I remember, making slip for casting is hell. Even if you buy the
slip (= to buying ready mixed clay bodies) it is hell to keep it right, use
it right....the whole process is well beyond my nervous system. It requires
a tremendous amount of skill. I dare say one cannot learn it half as easily
as learning how to throw.
Ok. There is the factor that once molds are made many many many many
finished pieces are made. Quelle horreur! Out there, sneaking up like some
monster slime from outer space, invading our lives, are slipcast hordes of
pots and sculptures......BUT I HAVE YET TO HEAR A DISCUSSION--I THINK VALID
--OF LIMITED EDITIONS.
Let me simplify my message. I think making models, and making molds, and
casting etc the pieces requires huge skill and patience. As do other
methods of fabricating clay ware. I think we have come to accept a whole
bunch of tools and gadgets that help us make pots; tools and gadgets that
replace a certain amount of skill : electric wheels replace the skill of a
kicking foot, premixed clay and commercial glazes (self-explanatory), frits
(no no not again) pug mills (scrap wedging) those electric kiln digital
thingies, pyrometers, gas analyzers.....WHAT GIVES WITH MOLDS. (Extra U's
provided on request.)
Lili Krakowski
Constableville, N.Y.
Be of good courage....
L. P. Skeen on tue 2 sep 03
THANK YOU DAVID!!!!!!!!!! for saying exactly what I think too, only much
more nicely than I would have been able to say it...... Hand made is
handmade and mold made is moldmade. The beauty of handmade is the variation
from piece to piece. :)
L
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Hendley"
> Molded ceramics are, in my opinion, not handmade and thus I don't regard
the process in the same light as handmade pottery. The bottom line is
the potter's hand does not shape the clay.
Hendrix, Taylor J on tue 2 sep 03
Lili and all,
I don't know what's up either. I see no difference between
someone sculpting, designing and making molds, casting and
assembling and what the "rest of us" do. I know enough now
to know that slip casting from idea to product is way
difficile. That kind of work takes a bunch of skill AND
patience, neither of which I have.
All that is not to say that inheriting a bunch of molds
and some china paints from grandma is necessarily the=20
same thing. I think it isn't even close. I've made
plastic model planes (my favorite was the Mosquito) and
know what skill it takes to make all the parts eventually
look like it could fly. What is that though? When does
it go from skillful construction to artistic expression?
What may be many people's hang-up regarding slip casters
is that it becomes too easy to 'inherit', to become just
the means of getting the slip into the molds. It is=20
after all a very rigid form of production after a certain
point. There are just so many things you can do with those
spin and paint things, right? After a while one wants a=20
straight line.
Of course I don't really have a position on this as yet.
I'm too green for that.
Taylor, in Waco
-----Original Message-----
From: Lily Krakowski [mailto:mlkrakowski@CITLINK.NET]=20
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:53 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Molds and slip casting!
Perhaps some serious discussion is needed as to why making molds and
using
one's own molds and like that is considered inferior. Why them what
makes
things in molds are discriminated against. Children of a Lesser Muse.
...
Scott Ackerman on wed 3 sep 03
David,
I would have to beg to differ with you. The mold or template never
determines the shape of the piece. The intention of the mold maker
determines the shape of the piece. And how do you think you get the =
master
for a mold? Quite often it is turned from plaster (not too different =
from
trimming a foot on a bowl), or it is thrown. While it is true that the =
other
crafts/trades use tools while sculpting, so do potters. What is a rib? =
It is
a tool used in finalizing the shape of the piece. How do you trim the =
feet
of your pots, with your fingers? I doubt it, you probably use some kind =
of
trimming tool. So do you tell your customers that 90% of the pot is =
handmade
the foot is not? When are we all going to quit putting down other =
methods of
pursuing our common love of working in clay? I could come up with all =
kinds
of reasons why Ram pressing is better than other forms of producing =
pots,
but the only reason I would is if I am trying to justify my use of Ram
pressing over other methods of production. By the way I don't know =
anything
about Ram pressing other than to be able to identify a Ram press in a
picture. Where does intention fit in all of this? Don't we really use
different methods in order to satisfy the intention? Of course I guess =
it is
easier to judge others use of method than it is to spend time =
questioning
our own intentions. Those who believe that there is no skill in =
producing
masters and molds for slipcasting should try it just once. I suppose =
there
are handbuilders out there who make pinch or coil pots who could claim =
there
method is "more handmade" than throwing on a wheel. When does it stop? I
imagine that the bronze sculptors only "art" is his original clay or wax
master because after all everything else is just "metal slipcasting". I =
know
you say that you are not putting down slipcasting. No, you have a more
clever way of putting it:
"...while for a potter shaping plastic clay by hand it would simply mean
that she would start with a little more clay and remember to make the =
form a
little wider. It is this quick and easy evolution of form that allows an
accomplished potter to grow and to breathe life into her continuously
refined work."
I am reading between the lines that because slipcasting or Ram-pressing =
or
jiggering is not "handmade" by your definition that it has not life.
I know it is off the pottery subject but you should read "The =
Impractical
Cabinetmaker" by James Krenov. He would argue that you can't do anything =
but
"leave your fingerprints" on what you do. Anyway, didn't mean to rant =
it's
just that I am getting tired of reading about peoples' self-righteous
exclusionary attitudes regarding this subject instead of trying to =
encourage
others with clay, after all I thought that is why we are here, to help
others, not to belittle them. By the way I don't slipcast, yet!
"Every improvement in the standard of work men do is followed swiftly =
and
inevitably by an improvement in the men who do it" - William Morris
=20
Scott Ackerman
1133 Riverside
Suite B
Fort Collins, CO 80524
970-231-9035
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of David =
Hendley
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 6:08 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Molds and slip casting!
Lily, I addressed this question in a "Comment" in Ceramics Monthly in =
1999
called "In Ceramics 'handmade' means 'hand' made".
Molded ceramics are, in my opinion, not handmade and thus I don't regard
the process in the same light as handmade pottery.
The bottom line is the potter's hand does not shape the clay. When using
electric potters wheels, extruders, digital pyrometers, and pug mills =
the
potter still shapes the clay. Extruders are included in the list because =
the
clay is not simply squirted out of the machine, it is manipulated after
being extruded.
Here are a few paragraphs from the essay:
Unlike most art and craft media, the potter's hands are the primary =
tools
used to make pottery. The wood-worker needs a saw and a drill, the stone
sculptor needs a hammer and a chisel, and the metalworker needs a torch =
and
a file to shape his work. The potter does his shaping with his hands, =
and
the clay records everything the hands do. This suggests a logical =
standard
for judging whether or not a pot is "handmade"; namely, did a hand shape =
it?
Once any kind of mold or template determines the final shape of the =
piece,
it's not "hand" made, or "handmade" in the literal sense.
There are other criteria that are useful for judging a piece of pottery =
as
handmade or not. One is to question how much skill, or training, was
required to make the piece. Workers in ceramics factories can be trained =
in
a few days to pour molds or press pottery. On the other hand, learning =
to
skillfully manipulate plastic clay into desired shapes takes years of
practice. Yes, I know that great skill and experience was required to =
make
that mold. Well, the mold itself is handmade. Another useful question =
is,
"What would be involved if the design of the piece were changed =
slightly,
say made a half inch wider?" For molded pottery this would require a
complete retooling, while for a potter shaping plastic clay by hand it =
would
simply mean that she would start with a little more clay and remember to
make the form a little wider. It is this quick and easy evolution of =
form
that allows an accomplished potter to grow and to breathe life into her
continuously refined work.
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
> Perhaps some serious discussion is needed as to why making molds and=20
> using one's own molds and like that is considered inferior. Why them=20
> what makes things in molds are discriminated against. Children of a=20
> Lesser Muse.
>
_________________________________________________________________________=
___
__
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Linda Knapp on wed 3 sep 03
David Hendley wrote:
>Lily, I addressed this question in a "Comment" in Ceramics Monthly in 1999
>
>called "In Ceramics 'handmade' means 'hand' made".
>
>Molded ceramics are, in my opinion, not handmade and thus I don't regard
>
>the process in the same light as handmade pottery.
>
>The bottom line is the potter's hand does not shape the clay. When using
>
>electric potters wheels, extruders, digital pyrometers, and pug mills the
>
>potter still shapes the clay. Extruders are included in the list because the
>
>clay is not simply squirted out of the machine, it is manipulated after
>
>being extruded.
>
>
So by this logic Slip cast mugs/ teapots or other whatnot could be
"handmade" since after removal from the mold they are manipulated. Hmmm
maybe the world is not black and white after all?
Linda
Who just can't resist throwing gas on a fire.....
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 3 sep 03
Hi Hendrix, and all...
For me too...I may notice any number of splendid 'Slip Cast'
forms, and any number of entirely regretable Hand Thrown
forms...
Or either, ruined as may be with Glazes as take from them,
in distraction, whatever merit they may have had AS a
'form'...
What does it mean?
For me...I may like the form...and (one may hope,) also the
color, texture or scale or 'feel' of some Ceramic
piece...and I may also like to appreciate it was thrown on a
Wheel, built up from 'coils' or other
means...'hand-built' from thin 'slabs', Jiggered or Ram
Pressed as may be...or Slip Cast...
My own aspirations often are occupied with reveries of Slip
Cast Work I wish to do...
Especially if I may wish to offer 'sets' for the formal
Table whose various pieces enjoy to be quite alike.
Or even to offer various forms as I like as may then be
reliably the 'same'...as or IF that seems nice to do, and
sometimes it seems to me, it is.
Too, 'press-mould' Work as for certain embelmatic or
charecature or relief-pounce or what of Pitchers or Tumblers
or Bowl's sides for that matter...
There are many forms as do not lend themselves very well to
be 'Thrown'...which may have had something to do with why
the method of Slip Casting had evolved...as well as to make
multiples which shall be quite near alike IN form and weight
and so on, whose peculairities maybe would be tedious to
throw on the Wheel.
I do not think I would delight in Slip Casting as an
alternate method for forms as may be thrown nicely
enough...but for things as may not be thrown nicely enough,
I'd be delighted to do it.
I am happy to enjoy some appreciation of the differences,
and to appreciate that very good Work, middleing Work, and
very bad Work, are and may be done, in any of the methods of
making them.
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hendrix, Taylor J"
Lili and all,
I don't know what's up either. I see no difference between
someone sculpting, designing and making molds, casting and
assembling and what the "rest of us" do. I know enough now
to know that slip casting from idea to product is way
difficile. That kind of work takes a bunch of skill AND
patience, neither of which I have.
All that is not to say that inheriting a bunch of molds
and some china paints from grandma is necessarily the
same thing. I think it isn't even close. I've made
plastic model planes (my favorite was the Mosquito) and
know what skill it takes to make all the parts eventually
look like it could fly. What is that though? When does
it go from skillful construction to artistic expression?
What may be many people's hang-up regarding slip casters
is that it becomes too easy to 'inherit', to become just
the means of getting the slip into the molds. It is
after all a very rigid form of production after a certain
point. There are just so many things you can do with those
spin and paint things, right? After a while one wants a
straight line.
Of course I don't really have a position on this as yet.
I'm too green for that.
Taylor, in Waco
-----Original Message-----
From: Lily Krakowski [mailto:mlkrakowski@CITLINK.NET]
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:53 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Molds and slip casting!
Perhaps some serious discussion is needed as to why making
molds and
using
one's own molds and like that is considered inferior. Why
them what
makes
things in molds are discriminated against. Children of a
Lesser Muse.
...
____________________________________________________________
__________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Lily Krakowski on wed 3 sep 03
David and Lisa I respect you both profoundly. I disagree as profoundly
about the up front total rejection of slip cast pots.
Linda rightly commented that a slip cast piece can be manipulated.
But that is not all. A slip cast piece can be enhanced (sprigs, slip,
carving, etc.) and glazed imaginativedly. Two slip cast pieces might be
joined. This all requires the application of the nose to grindstone, tush
to chair, hand to work.
I have seen --oy, have I seen!-- production thrown pots, pretty identical,
klutzy ugly, badly designed, badly glazed. These would get into my show or
pantheon millenia after a slip cast piece of beautiful design and perfect
execution would.
Years ago I said to Hermann Seger: "Hermie," I said, "A Kegel here, a kugel
there, and soon there will be no stopping it." Did he listen? Did anyone?
The pyrometric cone soon replaced the expert eye--the looking into the kiln,
the sense of it, the deep knowledge of the true fireman. Any pipsqueak now
can use cones and gas analyzers and pyrometers--where will it end?
It seems to me that this needs real exploration and debate. Because to me
the art is in perfection of skill, mastery of craft (as I keep repeating to
my own boredom) No one can say Wedgewood inter al did not make gorgeous
stuff and much of that was made in molds. I suspect that some of the
rejection of slip cast work comes exactly from a judgment that it requires
less skill....Because as far as I ever have seen the hand and eye
coordination and skill is there....I know I throw darned well. But I would
never be good at slipcasting....
Is it maybe involved with the fact that the MFA places no longer teach it?
So, David, Lisa-- open up the discussion with clearer enunciation of your
viewpoints. Please. I am NOT being argumentative here....I think we all
should talk about it. Repeat. All.
Lili Krakowski
Constableville, N.Y.
Be of good courage....
=?iso-8859-1?q?lance=20millward?= on thu 4 sep 03
These kind of definitions serve some people better
than others. I will be switching from hand drawn
plans to computer rendered plans for my landscape
designs. Maybe the 'art' in my work will dies then
too? You should find people who produce similar work
in a similar kind of way and pressure them to push the
boundaries of your materials and techniques.
I knew a Chech mould maker who made shell casings
during the war. He made copies of dinnerware after
the war...isn't easy to account for shrinkage to
produce an exact copy. He was also involved in making
moulds for porcelain dolls. They soon realized that
they could buy cheap imported moulds. His attention
to detail made his moulds expensive. They also took
to making copies of his moulds and selling them,
themselves. Basically they screwed him over.
Strange thing was that other people were more pissed
off about it than he was. He was just glad he had
escaped working in the coal mines during the war that
would have spelled death. Mould-making was his life.
Lance.
--- Linda Knapp wrote: > David
Hendley wrote:
>
> >Lily, I addressed this question in a "Comment" in
> Ceramics Monthly in 1999
> >
> >called "In Ceramics 'handmade' means 'hand' made".
> >
> >Molded ceramics are, in my opinion, not handmade
> and thus I don't regard
> >
> >the process in the same light as handmade pottery.
> >
> >The bottom line is the potter's hand does not shape
> the clay. When using
> >
> >electric potters wheels, extruders, digital
> pyrometers, and pug mills the
> >
> >potter still shapes the clay. Extruders are
> included in the list because the
> >
> >clay is not simply squirted out of the machine, it
> is manipulated after
> >
> >being extruded.
> >
> >
>
>
> So by this logic Slip cast mugs/ teapots or other
> whatnot could be
> "handmade" since after removal from the mold they
> are manipulated. Hmmm
> maybe the world is not black and white after all?
>
> Linda
> Who just can't resist throwing gas on a fire.....
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
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