Snail Scott on tue 2 sep 03
At 12:38 AM 9/3/03 EDT, you wrote:
> Just wanted to let everyone know I found a solution to my acrylic
>paint problem. I purchased a gloss glaze that is bakeable, applied it
over the
>top of the acrylic and baked it for an hour at 300 degrees...
>I do plan on selling these tiles...I do not however feel that I am doing a
disservice
>to any tile makers...
Those baked-acrylic paints are pretty nice, and much
more durable than ordinary acrylic paint, but they
will not stand up to abrasive cleaners or long-term
contact. OK for an ornamental wall piece, used much
as a painting on canvas might be. But, if the piece
is installed directly to the wall (not bolted on with
a separate backing) people tend to expect the same
durability as any ceramic tile, i.e. for the life of
the house. It's not the quality of your work that's
causing concern, it's the awareness that if you do
not meeet a customer's assumptions about a product,
they will give you grief later, even if you tried to
explain the work's proper care at the time.
One of the classic selling points of ceramic murals
(as opposed to painted ones, on tile or otherwise)
is the long-term durability. If your customers expect
this, they may treat your work as they would a fired
surface and not a painted one, and then be unhappy
when the surface shows wear. Keeping the work out of
bathrooms and kitchens will help, but may not be
sufficient.
I used to do textile art. Had a customer put a piece
in a south-facing window in New Mexico, then complain
when it faded. He wanted me to remake the piece from
scratch. He should have known better than to put it
in direct sunlight, but I was the one left in an
awkward position: To remake a piece without payment
to keep the buyer happy (or remake it so that my
work would continue to look good and represent me
well), or to piss off a well-heeled collector by
saying no. No good choices. I stick to more archival
materials now, mainly to avoid these issues. One
pissed-off collector with connections can do a lot
to damage your reputation as a craftsman. Especially
with custom commission work, your reputation is your
bond.
Permanently-installed work deserves permanent
materials.
I have used those oven-bake paints on glaze myself,
but I do sculpture, where the expectations are
different, and a durable contact surface is not
taken for granted. Still, I avoid them for larger
work, knowing that anything above pedestal scale
may eventually end up outdoors regardless of any
injunctions from me. And even on small work, I
know I'm taking a chance. If I sold them a painting,
they'd probably exercise reasonable care, but with
ceramics, assumptions are different.
Anyone who had ever sold a 'decorative use only'
pot that leaked when used for liquids can tell
horror storied about trying to buck customer
assumptions about a material. ("But it's ceramic,
just like my Corelle Ware/bathroom tile/kitchen
sink!") I suspect that many folks on this list
have had that experience, or know someone who has.
That's why some of the tile-makers on this list
are a little concerned. Someone says at the PTA
meeting, "I paid $$$ for a tile mural, but when
the housepainter splashed paint on it, I tried to
clean it up with steel wool and the design came
off. Those tile murals are all a rip-off!" It
affects other artists, too, at that point.
Glazing is not exactly like painting. It does
require some experience and knowledge to get it
right. But, that's why folks like Paul Lewing
can ask the big bucks for their work. They are
able to assure the customer of both appearance
and durability, backed by years of past
commissions that still look great.
Glaze is a different material, but consider
learning its uses. It's nice feeling, to assure
a buyer that their new treasure really is as
scrubbable as their bathroom tile. "Your child
coated it with peanut butter and jelly? No
problem!" (I once did a ceramic mural for a
preschool - they loved that part. "The kids
can touch it all they want, year after year,
and it just wipes off? Wow!")
I won't tell you not to use these oven-baked
finishes, but be very careful about how and
where they are installed, and beware of customer
assumptions.
-Snail
Earl Brunner on tue 2 sep 03
It's really amazing that you could do all of that product research since
this thread was first posted. My dishwasher cycle is about an hour, so
if you have done 5 of those AND soaked it in water for 4 hours, you've
been busy. Don't forget to do the freezing test as well. I doubt VERY
much that you could "fire" a "glaze" at 300 degrees in your oven that is
going to be both durable and permanent.
You never did indicate how these tiles would be used. If you represent
these as fired, glazed tiles, please be sure to indicate the "cone" that
they were "fired" to.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Michele
Milligan
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:38 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: solution to the acrylic paint problem
Just wanted to let everyone know I found a solution to my acrylic
paint problem. I purchased a gloss glaze that is bakeable, applied it
over the
top of the acrylic and baked it for an hour at 300 degrees. I have
since then
(after it cooled) washed it in the dishwasher 5 times and currently have
it
soaking in a pan of water, where it has been for approximately 4 hours.
So far,
it has not peeled, burned, or shown any signs of coming off the tile.
I do plan on selling these tiles, in fact I have had several orders, and
that
is why I was seeking help- I do not however feel that I am doing a
disservice
to any tile makers, tile painters, etc or to my "customers" (I don't
remember who wrote the email with those remarks in them)
I appreciate all teh people who tried to help. thanks
________________________________________________________________________
______
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Michele Milligan on wed 3 sep 03
Just wanted to let everyone know I found a solution to my acrylic
paint problem. I purchased a gloss glaze that is bakeable, applied it over the
top of the acrylic and baked it for an hour at 300 degrees. I have since then
(after it cooled) washed it in the dishwasher 5 times and currently have it
soaking in a pan of water, where it has been for approximately 4 hours. So far,
it has not peeled, burned, or shown any signs of coming off the tile.
I do plan on selling these tiles, in fact I have had several orders, and that
is why I was seeking help- I do not however feel that I am doing a disservice
to any tile makers, tile painters, etc or to my "customers" (I don't
remember who wrote the email with those remarks in them)
I appreciate all teh people who tried to help. thanks
Lori Leary on wed 3 sep 03
I would hope that if you are really going to sell these tiles, that you let
your clients know that the tiles are NOT glazed and their durability is
questionable.. If I were to buy tiles, I would expect them to be glazed.
No one wants to buy a pig in a poke. By the way, Janet is absolutley
correct. She has some very valid points.
Your tiles are "ceramic" tiles only in the fact that they are made of clay.
I take umbrage at someone passing off a non ceramic object as the real
thing. I work hard to study and learn about clay, and I do not appreciate
short cuts that only make things look bad for the rest of us.
Rant over,
Lori Leary
lleary@epix.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michele Milligan"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 12:38 AM
Subject: solution to the acrylic paint problem
> Just wanted to let everyone know I found a solution to my acrylic
> paint problem. I purchased a gloss glaze that is bakeable, applied it
over the
> top of the acrylic and baked it for an hour at 300 degrees. I have since
then
> (after it cooled) washed it in the dishwasher 5 times and currently have
it
> soaking in a pan of water, where it has been for approximately 4 hours.
So far,
> it has not peeled, burned, or shown any signs of coming off the tile.
>
>
> I do plan on selling these tiles, in fact I have had several orders, and
that
> is why I was seeking help- I do not however feel that I am doing a
disservice
> to any tile makers, tile painters, etc or to my "customers" (I don't
> remember who wrote the email with those remarks in them)
>
> I appreciate all teh people who tried to help. thanks
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Merrie Boerner on wed 3 sep 03
Good problem solving !
<<<<< I purchased a gloss glaze that is bakeable, applied it over the
top of the acrylic and baked it for an hour at 300 degrees>>>>>>
Can you tell us the name of the product, please ? Where did you find this
product ? I wonder if their is a glue that would hold up under 300* for an
hour .....do you know ? I have a ceramic heirloom that I would like to
repair.
Thanks a bunch,
Merrie
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Barbara Rathbun Hood on wed 3 sep 03
Awesome! Glad to hear there was a solution.....we have all done things and
then find out there was an easier or better way to achieve the same end.
Sometimes we find out in time and sometimes not......glad you were lucky. Where
there is a will there is usually a way!
Barbara
Jipsy2000@aol.com
Williamsburg, VA
Snail Scott on thu 4 sep 03
At 12:56 PM 9/4/03 -0400, you wrote:
>I can attest to the durability of acrylic paints in outdoor locations.
>My wife painted a mural on a block building here in West Michigan. It
>survived for a number of years with no apparent fading or weathering...
I made a piece (^10) surfaced partly with acrylic
paints,which has been outside for a dozen years in
New Mexico. (Never meant for it to go outside; it
was broken during an exhibition, and has sat in my
my parents' yard ever since.) The paint showed
noticeable, though not horrible, degradation after
about 4-5 years. By 9 or 10 years, though, the paint
was almost entirely gone from the south-facing side,
and had deteriorated badly elsewhere.
I've also used lacquers and enamel paints, which
gave slightly longer survival rates, but not
permanent enough for my taste...not even close.
A piece of ^4 reduction stoneware with spray enamel
paints (another breakage case in the 'boneyard')
was almost entirely bare again after only 6 years
outside. The clay still looks great, but the paint
is gone.
Indoors, such surfaces can last almost indefinitely,
but only if properly cared for. THAT is the crux of
the issue. Wiil the client (or future owners of the
piece whom you will never meet) be able to readily
guess at its appropriate care? Or will they think,
"It's tile, grab the bathroom cleanser."
When we talk about permanently-installed work, we
have to consider how long 'a long time' is. In my
opinion, that means many decades, not just a few
years. It's hard to guess how durable a new process
or material will be without actually waiting to see,
but we owe it to the client to give our best guess.
I like acrylic paint and those new baked-polymer
products, too, and use them on my own work often,
but not for a fixed architectural installation
which resembles fired tile.
Painted murals are great, but they seem to get
more care and TLC than ones on tile. (It's that
'expectation' issue, again.) Also, a painted
mural can be painted over if it deteriorates
unattractively. A tile mural may have to by
entirely removed, at some considerable expense
and effort. Also, conventional painted murals
tend to deteriorate slowly and steadily before
reaching a point at which it's judged to be
unacceptable. Paint on glossy surfaces can peel
quite abruptly and gracelessly.
(I do believe that slightly toothy or porous
surfaces allow the paint to bond better than to
an impervious surface, especially a glossy one.
Before painting over glaze, for any purpose,
I'd seriously consider at least sandblasting it
a bit.)
I'll repeat my previous contention: permanent
installations deserve permanent materials.
-Snail
Rare - Earth - Design on thu 4 sep 03
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michele Milligan"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 5:38 AM
Subject: solution to the acrylic paint problem
Michele,
You have been getting wrong advice from people,
I do not know what your intentions are as I did not see the original post
but I have fired Acrylic paints on sculptural pieces to cone12 In a gas
kiln, heavy reduction and, except for the reds which vanished completely and
a yellow which faded quite a bit, all colours looked the same as they did
going in to the kiln.
One of these pieces was placed on a cliff-top about 5 years ago and it looks
the same to me to-day as it did then.
No flaking, peeling, chipping. Colours used by the artist were red, yellow,
blue, green, white. I do not know the compositions, I do not know if other
colours will hold, but I see no reason as to why earth pigments like ochres
cannot be used, after all these are what gives colour to the cut stone
tiles.
Regards,
Bob Hollis
Janet Kaiser on thu 4 sep 03
"'Twas I", said the Sparrow, "with my bow and arrow".
You have received advice on how to do it properly, which you
intend to ignore. What is no doubt unpalatable, you dismiss as
"those remarks". I therefore shall heap some more: "Seeing is
believing" and I quite honestly do not believe what you are
planning to do is a Good Thing. No, not at all, Michele. And if
you wish to ignore what other tile makers are telling you and how
you are potentially going to ruin their collective reputation,
then I can only say you are very ill-advised.
It is one thing producing such work for your own edification and
use, as a hobby or as a student project in school. There are many
products and materials out there which one can mix and match to
one`s heart`s content for that. However, as soon as you start
selling, you become a representative of all the others working in
that field too. The good, the bad and the indifferent. The
standard of work is one thing, but the inherent strengths of
various media have to be chosen with great care. They must be
appropriate to the job in hand, not a cheap short cut to an
"artistic affect".
Tile has unique qualities. Acrylic paint has equally unique
qualities. The question is whether acrylic on tile is
appropriate? It is not, no matter what surface treatment you use.
Be in no doubt: your decision to go ahead in the face of
extremely good advice shows your contempt for both the medium,
the established tile makers both on this list and elsewhere and
ultimately your own clients and your future reputation as an
artist. Think very hard before you continue to "do your own
thing" here.
But you are apparently not alone. I have received several
messages from concerned potters and tile makers off-line, who
have actually seen examples of this in shops and "galleries"
locally. I say "galleries", because no self-respecting gallerist
would even consider exhibiting this inappropriate use of either
media apart from being cheap and tacky, however good the painting
may be. Acrylic is fine on paper, canvas, board, textiles and
even for surface treatment of ceramic sculptures but it should
NOT be used on tile murals. Period.
It is as appropriate as Grandma knitting a vest of hemp string
for the new addition to the family... It is not done for very
good reason.
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser
*** IN REPLY TO THE FOLLOWING MAIL:
>Just wanted to let everyone know I found a solution to my
acrylic
>paint problem. I purchased a gloss glaze that is bakeable,
applied it
>over the
>top of the acrylic and baked it for an hour at 300 degrees. I
have since
>then
>(after it cooled) washed it in the dishwasher 5 times and
currently have it
>soaking in a pan of water, where it has been for approximately 4
hours.
>So far,
>it has not peeled, burned, or shown any signs of coming off the
tile.
>
>
>I do plan on selling these tiles, in fact I have had several
orders, and
>that
>is why I was seeking help- I do not however feel that I am doing
a
>disservice
>to any tile makers, tile painters, etc or to my "customers" (I
don't
>remember who wrote the email with those remarks in them)
*** THE MAIL FROM Michele Milligan ENDS HERE ***
***********************************************************
The top posted mail was sent by Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art : Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent : Criccieth : Wales : UK
Centre of Excellence for The Arts
Home of The International Potters' Path
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 http://www.the-coa.org.uk
Open: 13.00 to 17.00hrs : Tuesday to Saturday
************** AVG Virus Protected ********************
Doric T. Jemison-Ball ll on fri 5 sep 03
Snail:
I can remember standing in galleries in the 60's with some friends enjoying
the joke that some of the paintings [notably Rothko] were painted with
ordinary house paint on canvas-not a real permanent media for paintings
selling for big bucks!
Then again, in the middle ages, the idea was that the art was there to
glorify God and consequently last until eternity or the second coming of
Christ, whichever came first.
Different strokes for different folks and times.
I'm with you. Sometimes half the fun of ceramics is "What will those guys in
the future think about us when they dig up this one in a thousand years?"
Doric T. Jemison-Ball ll
BBS-LA
14622 Ventura Blvd. #727
Sherman Oaks, CA 91403
In Southern California
818-262-5367 CELL/Voice/Message
In Northern California
707-884-5067 Voice
707-884-5417 FAX
buffalo@bbs-la.com
www.bbs-la.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Snail Scott"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: solution to the acrylic paint problem
> At 12:56 PM 9/4/03 -0400, you wrote:
> >I can attest to the durability of acrylic paints in outdoor locations.
> >My wife painted a mural on a block building here in West Michigan. It
> >survived for a number of years with no apparent fading or weathering...
>
>
> I made a piece (^10) surfaced partly with acrylic
> paints,which has been outside for a dozen years in
> New Mexico. (Never meant for it to go outside; it
> was broken during an exhibition, and has sat in my
> my parents' yard ever since.) The paint showed
> noticeable, though not horrible, degradation after
> about 4-5 years. By 9 or 10 years, though, the paint
> was almost entirely gone from the south-facing side,
> and had deteriorated badly elsewhere.
>
> I've also used lacquers and enamel paints, which
> gave slightly longer survival rates, but not
> permanent enough for my taste...not even close.
> A piece of ^4 reduction stoneware with spray enamel
> paints (another breakage case in the 'boneyard')
> was almost entirely bare again after only 6 years
> outside. The clay still looks great, but the paint
> is gone.
>
> Indoors, such surfaces can last almost indefinitely,
> but only if properly cared for. THAT is the crux of
> the issue. Wiil the client (or future owners of the
> piece whom you will never meet) be able to readily
> guess at its appropriate care? Or will they think,
> "It's tile, grab the bathroom cleanser."
>
> When we talk about permanently-installed work, we
> have to consider how long 'a long time' is. In my
> opinion, that means many decades, not just a few
> years. It's hard to guess how durable a new process
> or material will be without actually waiting to see,
> but we owe it to the client to give our best guess.
>
> I like acrylic paint and those new baked-polymer
> products, too, and use them on my own work often,
> but not for a fixed architectural installation
> which resembles fired tile.
>
> Painted murals are great, but they seem to get
> more care and TLC than ones on tile. (It's that
> 'expectation' issue, again.) Also, a painted
> mural can be painted over if it deteriorates
> unattractively. A tile mural may have to by
> entirely removed, at some considerable expense
> and effort. Also, conventional painted murals
> tend to deteriorate slowly and steadily before
> reaching a point at which it's judged to be
> unacceptable. Paint on glossy surfaces can peel
> quite abruptly and gracelessly.
>
> (I do believe that slightly toothy or porous
> surfaces allow the paint to bond better than to
> an impervious surface, especially a glossy one.
> Before painting over glaze, for any purpose,
> I'd seriously consider at least sandblasting it
> a bit.)
>
> I'll repeat my previous contention: permanent
> installations deserve permanent materials.
>
> -Snail
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Janet Kaiser on fri 5 sep 03
Yes, Ms Milligan, there are apparently a lot of others besides
your good self who like faking tile in this manner, but it still
does not make it right, whoever does the talking. I stated the
conclusions many will come to either sooner or later about your
proposed method of working without being in the least bit rude.
Your use of a female canine to describe me, on the other hand,
was not what I personally consider mannerly, however I do concede
you at least chose the correct gender.
Naturally others using the same methods will agree with you, but
you will notice that no conscientious or reputable tile maker
will. I repeat for your edification and anyone else who feels
they are quite entitled to use acrylic paints in this manner...
Acrylics are fine for many applications including cold finishes
as various sculptors have agreed, but TILE is a completely
different kettle of fish.
TILES are made and will be expected to withstand the use of
abrasives, cleaning agents, urine, temperature/humidity
variations, chemicals and even sharp implements yet remain
completely hygienic AND aesthetically pleasing. Few other ceramic
products have to fulfil all these criteria. Certainly not
sculpture, whether it is outdoors or in.
My "people skills" as you call them are fine thank you very much.
Not least because the majority are able to distinguish a truthful
and honest answer when they hear one. They naturally can ignore
every single word I utter, but they usually manage to do so with
some semblance of good grace.
Preaching to the converted is no fun, but it remains a challenge
to all who strive for good practice to at least try to keep
erring individuals on the straight and narrow. Obviously there
will always be the sinners and the black sheep.
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser
*** IN REPLY TO THE FOLLOWING MAIL:
From: Michele Milligan
>are you always such a rude bitch or only when you don't like
what someone
>else has to say??
>
>I simply asked a question and got many replies- yours was the
one one that
>was not only negative, but rude as well. I will do as I please
with MY tiles
>and acrylic paint, and it shouldn't matter to you one way or
another- you
>would be surprised how many other "tile artists" are doing
something similiar, and
>support what I am doing 100%.
>
>I think you need to work on your people skills.
*** THE MAIL FROM Michele Milligan ENDS HERE ***
***********************************************************
The top posted mail was sent by Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art : Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent : Criccieth : Wales : UK
Centre of Excellence for The Arts
Home of The International Potters' Path
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 http://www.the-coa.org.uk
Open: 13.00 to 17.00hrs : Tuesday to Saturday
************** AVG Virus Protected ********************
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