Vince Pitelka on fri 5 sep 03
> If you think that Walmart is competition then you are in the same leaque
as
> our Ram pressing friend. I hope Walmart beats the hell outta him. Just
> don't give him a space next to you at a craft fair. Allowing the pressers
to
> display next to you is to give them the crediblility they don't deserve.
Thanks Tony. You are among the group of heroic potters making fine pots no
matter what. I never said that Walmart was competing with potters. That
wasn't the issue. My premise was that Walmart is killing the unique
qualities of small town America. That is a fact.
Okay, here I go. I will forever maintain that the rampressers and
slipcasters are not making handmade wares, unless they are handbuilding
unique work from rampressed or slipcast components. Otherwise, they are
mass-producing, and they have no business selling their work next to
potters/sculptors making their work by hand one piece at a time, ever, in
any venue.
Those who are "manufacturing" their work via rampressing or slipcasting and
are selling it as "handmade" in craft shows and fine craft galleries have
the potential to do serious damage to the market for handmade wares. I just
hope that they realize the falsehood they are presenting to the public.
That said, if someone does production rampressed or handbuilt work, and
represents it honestly for what it is, that is fine. They do not belong in
craft shows or fine craft galleries, but there are plenty of other venues.
My objective is to preserve the uniqueness and nobility of handmade work.
Don't anyone lecture me about how rampressing and slipcasting are just tools
like the pottery wheel or the slab roller, because that is completely
ridiculous. Only someone who is doing production rampressing or slipcasting
would try to pass off that kind of convoluted rationalization.
I love fine pottery and clay sculpture. I thank god for the Richard Aernis
and Tony Clennels and Linda Arbuckles who introduce such beauty and joy into
people's lives. I am adamantly opposed to anyone or anything that
diminishes or demeans the worth of what those potters are doing.
Okay, off my Saturday night soapbox -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Vince Pitelka on sat 6 sep 03
> I have seen slipcast work of high artistic value. Isn't that the method
that
> was used for much of the early Meissen pottery as well?
> The skill to create a really good, artistic mold is a remarkable one.
> What about stamps? If I make a stamp to transfer an intricate design
rather
> than spend HOURS carving -- does that mean my artistic vision was less?
Susan -
If you thought about this a bit you would see the obvious difference. A
stamp is just a tool you use to impress a design on the surface of your
handmade work, and it is a very old process used by potters all over the
world. A ram press or a slip-casting mold makes an entire vessel, exactly
like the rest of the who-knows-how-many-others cast from the same mold.
That concept is simply incompatible with the notion of handmade fine craft.
The people who are slipcasting many many multiples of an original are
manufacturing, they are not handmaking, even if they finish the piece by
hand. The original and the product might still be very beautiful, but it is
not handmade, and it does not belong in venues with handmade fine craft.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Vince Pitelka on sat 6 sep 03
What I said was:
"That said, if someone does production rampressed or handbuilt work, and
represents it honestly for what it is, that is fine. They do not belong in
craft shows or fine craft galleries, but there are plenty of other venues."
What I meant was:
"That said, if someone does production rampressed or slipcast work, and
represents it honestly for what it is, that is fine. They do not belong in
craft shows or fine craft galleries, but there are plenty of other venues."
Sorry about that -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Susan Setley on sat 6 sep 03
In a message dated 9/6/03 7:32:44 PM, vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET writes:
<<
What I meant was:
"That said, if someone does production rampressed or slipcast work, and
represents it honestly for what it is, that is fine. They do not belong in
craft shows or fine craft galleries, but there are plenty of other venues."
Sorry about that -
- Vince >>
I have seen slipcast work of high artistic value. Isn't that the method that
was used for much of the early Meissen pottery as well?
The skill to create a really good, artistic mold is a remarkable one.
What about stamps? If I make a stamp to transfer an intricate design rather
than spend HOURS carving -- does that mean my artistic vision was less?
L. P. Skeen on sun 7 sep 03
Mein gott John, I just snorted iced tea when I read this. The very IDEA of
Vince moving over to the right was just too much............ ;)
L
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Baymore"
Vince,
I'm right there on that same soapbox with you. Move over a tad to the right
will you ?
Karin Hurt on sun 7 sep 03
Have you noticed lately that many of the Indian pots are slipcast? The
galleries will tell you it's art because of the carving or painted surfaces.
Karin
Arizona
> In a message dated 9/6/03 7:32:44 PM, vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET writes:
>
> <<
>
> What I meant was:
>
> "That said, if someone does production rampressed or slipcast work, and
>
> represents it honestly for what it is, that is fine. They do not belong
in
>
> craft shows or fine craft galleries, but there are plenty of other
venues."
>
>
> Sorry about that -
>
> - Vince >>
>
> I have seen slipcast work of high artistic value. Isn't that the method
that
> was used for much of the early Meissen pottery as well?
>
> The skill to create a really good, artistic mold is a remarkable one.
>
> What about stamps? If I make a stamp to transfer an intricate design
rather
> than spend HOURS carving -- does that mean my artistic vision was less?
>
>
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__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
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John Baymore on sun 7 sep 03
Okay, here I go. I will forever maintain that the rampressers and
slipcasters are not making handmade wares, unless they are handbuilding
unique work from rampressed or slipcast components. Otherwise, they are
mass-producing, and they have no business selling their work next to
potters/sculptors making their work by hand one piece at a time, ever, in=
any venue.
Those who are "manufacturing" their work via rampressing or slipcasting a=
nd
are selling it as "handmade" in craft shows and fine craft galleries have=
the potential to do serious damage to the market for handmade wares. I
just
hope that they realize the falsehood they are presenting to the public.
That said, if someone does production rampressed or handbuilt work, and
represents it honestly for what it is, that is fine. They do not belong =
in
craft shows or fine craft galleries, but there are plenty of other venues=
.
Vince,
I'm right there on that same soapbox with you. Move over a tad to the
right will you ? =
The definition of "handcrafted" is unfortunately a slippery one. And som=
e
people just COVER it in WD40 .
Like most craftspeople, I make a point of going into craft shops /
galleries. Unfortunatley, too many times I see some well known rampresser=
s/
jiggerers /slipcasters work sitting there. I usually "play dumb" and as=
k
the salespeople a bunch of "tourist type" questions about the work. Almo=
st
100 percent of the time I get told that the work is all completely
handcrafted, .... 98 percent of the time I am even told it is hand thrown=
or handbuilt. About 90 percent of the time I get told that the artist hi=
m
or herself made it with their own two hands. After I get all the erroneo=
us
statements focused and out in the open...... I usually then will explain
who I am and my clay background, and explain the REAL history of the maki=
ng
of those kinds of pieces. In most cases they seem "surprised" that this =
is
the case to my face. (In some cases the salesperson really IS
unknowing...... cause the manager hasn't told them.) But if I go back to=
that same shop a year later...... about 98 percent of the time the same
work is still sitting there. And if I ask a new salesperson there.... I
get the same story I got before all over again.
=
Amazing what the pursuit of money will do to some people's sense of what =
is
ethical.
My whole contention on this subject is the "truth in advertising" approac=
h.
Slipcast, jigger, and rampress openly and with gusto. Nothing wrong wit=
h
good well designed manufactured ware. God knows that Walmart is a GREAT
example of this need . But misrepresenting the genesis of that kind =
of
work is pretty low, and the "don't ask, don't tell" approach to the issue=
is even worse.
If a person goes into a fine craft shop or gallery there is an expectatio=
n
before they walk in about what they will find. I truly believe that a co=
re
expectation by the vast majority is that the work is "handmade". So by
placing manufactured type work in these venues... there is a breaking of
the trust between the seller and the buyer. If the seller doesn't
know...... then the breaking of the trust is between the maker of the
object and the seller, and the end "victim" of the misrepresentation is t=
he
buyer. =
If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck......
it's a duck. Work in a handcraft shops is handcrafted........ except whe=
n
it is a "trojan duck" .
If you took a group of 100 "average people" and had them watch a person
throwing on a potter's wheel, pinching a pot, slab building a pot, throwi=
ng
on the potter's wheel, hand press molding a piece, slip casting a piece,
jiggering a piece, rampressing a piece, and taking a pre-made offshore
piece of bisqeware out of a shipping box ....... and then asked them
which of these forming processes would fit their own current defintion of=
"handcraft work", I personally think the results would be pretty obvious.=
=
The one that might hit the question mark "grey zone" would be the hand
press molding....depending on the complexity of the particular mold. =
If this whole issue TRULY is a non-issue as some assert..... then it woul=
d
do NO harm for the maker to be totally upfront and honest about the manne=
r
of production. And to take a very aggressive role in this disclosure of
forming methods if the venue being sold to could somehow mistake the work=
for more handcrafted pieces. I've never seen a hangtag or a bio or
brochure or anything discuss these kinds of forming methods about pieces.=
=
I HAVE seen "handcrafted" on such work. And even hand thrown.
Anyone interested in this topic might want to go to the part of my websi=
te
that has been up for years and years on this subject....... =
at http/www.JohnBaymore.com/p0001029.htm
best,
....................john =
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086-5812 USA
JBaymore@compuserve.com
http://www.JohnBaymore.com
603-654-2752 (studio)
800-900-1110 (studio)
Vince Pitelka on mon 8 sep 03
Lisa Skeen wrote:
> Mein gott John, I just snorted iced tea when I read this. The very IDEA
of
> Vince moving over to the right was just too much............ ;)
After John Baymore wrote:
> I'm right there on that same soapbox with you. Move over a tad to the
right
> will you ?
Thanks LIsa. Yes, just about anything could cause me to move even further to
the left, especially in these trying times, but nothing in the entire world
could get me to move over to the right except a faster driver wanting to
pass.
Bet wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
tsawyer on thu 11 sep 03
I agree Vince. Left is right when right is wrong. That's always when I
move further left.
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Vince
Pitelka
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 7:35 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Men's underwear, Rampressing, and Slipcasting
Lisa Skeen wrote:
> Mein gott John, I just snorted iced tea when I read this. The very
> IDEA
of
> Vince moving over to the right was just too much............ ;)
After John Baymore wrote:
> I'm right there on that same soapbox with you. Move over a tad to the
right
> will you ?
Thanks LIsa. Yes, just about anything could cause me to move even
further to the left, especially in these trying times, but nothing in
the entire world could get me to move over to the right except a faster
driver wanting to pass. Bet wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803 http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
________________________________________________________________________
______
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
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