Norman van der Sluys on mon 8 sep 03
I think it ill behooves us potters to point a finger at a certain
technique or method used in our craft and say it is inferior, not art,
or whatever. I have heard these arguments before in my life. I
remember when photography was not considered an art. Well, then Man
Ray's photograms were different - the artist himself was directly
manipulating the materials, so that was art. But Ansel Adams used a
method of calculating exposure and development with results quite
different from the drugstore prints, and so on. Now photography is
firmly established in the art world - not because of materials and
technique, but because of its potential for expression. That is the
true hallmark of art, and I believe of fine craft as well - significant
expression.
It hasn't been too many years ago that clay was rejected as a material
by the art world. We should remember that. It is not the material or
the technique, it is what is done with that material and those
techniques that makes the difference between art and craft, and
mechanical manufacturing.
Now marketing, that is a different question!
Norman van der Sluys
Benona Pottery
Near the shore of Lake Michigan.
Joan Berkwitz on mon 8 sep 03
After thinking about and re-reading some of the posts on the subject of =
slipcasting/rampressing, it seems like we are discussing two different =
issues. There is a disconnect on the two sides, somehow neither is being =
as clear as it could. In order to refocus slightly, let's re-structure =
the arguments into slightly modified forms.
Vince, and others who nod their heads with you, is it mostly the =
slipcasting/rampressing that bothers you (the method of forming) or is =
it the marketing? If it is only that the marketing of the pieces seems =
to deceive customers, who are expecting to find handbuilt/wheel thrown =
ware, then would you have less concern if the items were clearly marked =
and marketed as cast or jiggered? If the wares sitting next to you in =
the craft fair made it plain that they were made with these methods =
(perhaps by showing photos of the process, etc.) would you find that =
acceptable? Fairness in marketing is always a goal to strive for, it is =
usually the nuance of meaning and definition that cause argument. (Think =
about the term "organic" as it applies to fruit and veggies...seems so =
simple to define, it is not.) If you wouldn't mind competing against the =
cast/jiggered pieces, as long as they were clearly marked, then you are =
on solid ground.=20
If you argue that the method itself removes the pieces from the =
"handcrafted" or "handformed" realm, please consider that this is the =
part of the discussion where you may be treading on less firm soil. If =
an artist is the one who makes the original, makes the mold, casts or =
jiggers the piece, finishes and glazes it, and no part of this process =
is removed from the artists control or actual hands, it is difficult to =
then contend that it is not "hand formed". In ancient Rome, artisans =
produced statuettes called "Tanagra" figures. They were smaller =
sculptures, of more everyday people, including the mythological, =
entertainers, peasants, and young ladies of fashion. They were produced =
in bronze or clay, in molds, and were the art that the common man could =
afford. In ancient Egypt, funerary figurines (sorry, can't remember =
their name) were cast in that faience composite material by the hundreds =
of thousands. In Neolithic times, metal items were commonly cast out of =
pottery molds. (there's a lovely recreation of the process in a special =
on "Otzi") It is hard to believe that anyone would accuse these pieces =
of not being "handformed" or "handcrafted". =20
It seems that Bernard Leach, and his teachings, were more against the =
overly ornate factory produced ware of their time than they were against =
the use of molds. They were more interested in design and decoration, =
and in the result that a studio pottery can bring to the finished ware. =
They started a backlash against the indifferent, mass produced, poorly =
designed wares made in sweatshop conditions by children. Did he really =
speak against a small studio pottery whose wares were produced in a =
controlled setting by well trained adults? Did he speak against pieces =
whose original was well designed, with a view to form and function, =
being produced in such a way that common people could afford it?=20
And if you can convince the museums around the world that their cast =
pieces are not "handformed" and therefore not carrying any ascetic =
value, may I stand in the give away line?
Joanie (who is on the bylaws committee of a national non-profit, and is =
in practice for such discourse)
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 9 sep 03
Hi Vince, and all...
Maybe some of the ambiguity here...is that some 'Slipcast'
objects are not 'mass produced', but are merely Slip Cast
for some reason as may make reasonable sense to do for their
form, kind of handles or edges, embossing-like decorations,
or what...and...for them to be aesthetically meritorious as
well in their being themselves as what they are...
Should they be barred from more sophisticated or 'serious'
venues?
What if I were to gain the knack, say of making 'Slip Cast'
Table Settings, as say, of the sort ennoyed for Morning or
Luncheon Settings as the Russian Czars or their associates
and relatives enjoyed in the 1830s?
Such things, or some of them...were far finer and more
tasteful and 'right' than anything I know of (of their kind)
made by anyone, anywhere, to-day...and were very wonderfull,
entirely excellent, splendid and simply beautiful...
What then?
NOT 'mass produced'...
And certainly as much qualified to be 'Fine Art' I should
think, as anyones Ceramics, of any sort might aspire TO
be...
Ignominy?
...or?
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince Pitelka"
(..snip..)
> Slipcasting and rampressing are wonderful
> production proceeses, but the products should be sold at
any of the abundant
> venues where mass-produced items belong. I do not believe
it is
> appropriate, economically or philosophically, to sell them
next to artisans
> doing truly handmade work.
> Best wishes -
> - Vince
om.
Burness Speakman on tue 9 sep 03
I do all of it. There is a time and place for each and every aspect of
working with clay, whether it is with molds, sculpting, or wheel work. Many
people who are out there buying a piece for a friends birthday don't even
know the differnce between a mold casted piece or a wheel thrown item. I
was in a very exclusive store a couple weeks ago where some Indian look
alike pottery was being sold "on sale" for $50 and up. A man was looking at
a vase with a crack in it, and contimplating a purchase. I talked him out
of it. I showed him the mold lines and explained what they were. I also
pointed out the very expensive Hopi ware in the show case. People are
buying within their budget right now and this means that mold cast items
are not cost prohibitive. The man above was willing to pay fifty bucks for
an inferior item with a crack, not because it was mold casted. He was not
aware that it had been made in a mold and mass produced though. Without the
crack I thought it a little pricy myself, but the shop owner has an
overhead and what he can get is up to him, it is his credibility in the
long run, not mine.
Using molds are how people learn something that they ordinarily would not
be able to do. This is OK. I have a "thing" about mass produced chinese or
rampressed work also, but they have their place. There is a rampress artist
down the road and he sells his work for more bucks than I would pay, but
that is only because I can make something similar. He has an overhead he
wants to maintain. I have an art that I want to maintain. There is space
for both of us in this world and I won't begruge him of his.
Bunny
Vince Pitelka on tue 9 sep 03
Vince, and others who nod their heads with you, is it mostly the
slipcasting/rampressing that bothers you (the method of forming) or is it
the marketing? If it is only that the marketing of the pieces seems to
deceive customers, who are expecting to find handbuilt/wheel thrown ware,
then would you have less concern if the items were clearly marked and
marketed as cast or jiggered? If the wares sitting next to you in the craft
fair made it plain that they were made with these methods (perhaps by
showing photos of the process, etc.) would you find that acceptable?
Joan -
I am probably repeating myself (ad nauseum perhaps?), but no, I don't think
that is appropriate. My contention is that mass-production slipcast and
rampressed wares do not belong in fine craft galleries and craft shows. I
believe in a long-standing tradition of fine hand-made wares at these
venues, and I do not want to see that tradition diluted or subverted. I
think we should all do whatever we can to help the hardworking throwers and
handbuilders support themselves. Slipcasting and rampressing are wonderful
production proceeses, but the products should be sold at any of the abundant
venues where mass-produced items belong. I do not believe it is
appropriate, economically or philosophically, to sell them next to artisans
doing truly handmade work.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Cat Jarosz on wed 10 sep 03
In a message dated 9/9/2003 11:10:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET writes:
Joan -
I am probably repeating myself (ad nauseum perhaps?), but no, I don't think
that is appropriate. My contention is that mass-production slipcast and
rampressed wares do not belong in fine craft galleries and craft shows. I
believe in a long-standing tradition of fine handmade wares at these
Venues, and I do not want to see that tradition diluted or subverted. I
think we should all do whatever we can to help the hardworking throwers and
handbuilders support themselves
Boy have I tried to stay out of this fray from the moment Tony C spoke
up.... And I am still not sure why I am as surely its not because I have lots to
add (we all have opinions) and so many others have better wording. I think I
should try to add to it as I am also one of the potters that is affected by the
above and am concerned about the watering down of what we are trying to do
not just for myself but for the newer studio potters trying to make their way.
I wonder with so many upset opinions that the original posts got messed up
and some folks are defending things that were not in the original intent.
Read the above clipped Vince thread. What he wrote about Tony's posting should
be taken for what it is and the truth of it goes to my heart... HONESTY AND
INTEGRITY
I have 2 potter friends who both make a living with their work that have
differing opinions about the guy that wholesales to some god awful amount of
galleries around the country. Heck this guys work is in many galleries here in
the surrounding Asheville area being sold next to the lone studio potters
work for the same amount of money.. yeah the rutile blue guy
One of the potters thinks that its awesome that someone made a wonderful
product and glaze combo and came up with a way to mass produce and market the
work because its so sellable... The other potter will not sell to any gallery
that carry's this work... 2 different poles of thought...
I myself can not make enough product in a yr. to supply 10 good galleries
or do many shows either so I can pretty much pick and choose who gets my
work (I can be fussier than I once was) So I need to make choices now on
not only do I have to ship? or do I have to wait net 30 for a check but now do
I want my work in a gallery that buys this work and markets it next to mine
as in the same genre' ? Should I ask the galleries if they carry this fellas
work first? Or ask if they will carry the work in the future?
I actually did have work in a gallery that carried the work but the
gallery owner said that she wasn't able to buy enough studio work from potters
and had to resort to this fellas mass production ... oh the gallery went
under this yr. because the owner got bored with the gallery so I really didn't
have to make any decision about not selling to them again. ( pretty lame excuse
as there are tons of potters in this area)
OK my opinion about the above is I don't think the fella in??? Is
actually misrepresenting his work process but I could be wrong... The galleries by
omitting this imfo is the one at fault and I do resent it... Yes, they have
to make a living and keep the gallery's viable but if the work stands on its
own and is able to sell mugs at 26 bucks because its next to mine there is
something smelly about it. That's not the right thing to do... Honesty and
integrity are important to me and I wish I had answers to the many that are
starting out and cant afford to be fussy about who they sell wholesale to. Also
what's the answer to galleries that cannot find enough wholesale work to fill the
gallery so they have to resort to this mass produced work posing as individual
studio potter work?
The only answer I can come up with is for us to keep on making work that
sets it apart from the masses, finding a voice distinctly yours and that wont
sell to the masses. My work is not for everyone nor should it be. Many people
out there that buy pottery because its BLUE, and don't look at the work just
the color ( I don't sell to that crowd)... I do not do blue and wanna say I
wont do blue but I think that will jinx me
Before I get off my soap box I want to add that the above is all about
functional pottery not sculpture or wild and crazy art forms, it's about mass
produced functional ware ... and it's not just about the one guys production
practices although he was singled out because his is so blatant where as the
potters that are ram pressing a few items to market next to mine and others at
our guild shows are getting away with it too and its dishonest to me if its
not UPFRONT but who is gonna stir the pot? Who is gonna holler? Who has time?
Who will police the guilds?
respectfully submitted by a hard working honest functional potter, Cat
Jarosz who will ask that John B, Vince and Tony make room to the right or left
for more of us to stand . I may not be able to make much of a mark anywhere
but on this forum but am grateful for this chance to take a stand somewhere...
>^..^
Kathi LeSueur on wed 10 sep 03
Cat81257@AOL.COM wrote:
>...the rutile blue guy.......OK my opinion about the above is I don't think the fella in??? Is
>actually misrepresenting his work process but I could be wrong... >>>
>
>I've seen the "rutile blues" guy's work (he's from Erie, PA) in a number of galleries, some of which I sell to. In most cases there is a picture of the "rutile blue" guy and a copy of the Ceramics Monthly issue with a story on him and his process. So I have a hard time with the idea that he's misrepresenting his work. BTW, his work is carried by my all time favorite gallery. The one who always has a big order sitting in my production box, orders more than any other account, always pays right on time, is one of the top ten retailers, and over the years has bought a van for me with her payments. So, I just can't see that having his work along side my hand thrown and handmade slab work in a gallery is hurting my sales.
>
> Kathi
>
steve harrison on thu 11 sep 03
> Such things, or some of them...were far finer and more
> tasteful and 'right' than anything I know of (of their kind)
> made by anyone, anywhere, to-day...and were very wonderfull,
> entirely excellent, splendid and simply beautiful...
> What then?
> NOT 'mass produced'...
>
Hi Phil,
As always, you make a very thoughtful contribution.
I have made small runs of slip cast "short black" coffee cups.
I threw the originals then carved the handles, made multipiece molds of
them both and cast a small run.
these were then wood fired.
I think that they qualify as fine art, not just craft.
(to illustrate this point, I have Jpegs for anyone interested)
I think that they are as good as anyone else's 'hand made' objects.
In fact I consider them hand made objects.
I certainly used my hands to make them. (and my brain)
They required all the same sensitivities and skills that my thrown pots
require.
quite simply, there just isn't any difference.
Best wishes
Steve Harrison
Hot & Sticky Pty Ltd
5 Railway Pde
Balmoral Village
NSW 2571
Australia
http://ian.currie.to/sh/Steve_Harrisons_books.html
John Anthony on thu 11 sep 03
Hi Steve- I'd love to see the jpegs- this is something I've been
interested in doing, and I'm sure the cups are great.
I guess the larger question might be, would they still be as handmade
if you made twenty molds and hired twenty people
to make "x" hundred of them a day, and five people to put handles on
and take mold marks off, and two people to glaze them all
and a couple of people to fire them, and sold "x" thousand a year.
Ostensibly, the objects would be the same- but this is
where I always begin to have trouble with the concept of handmade. I'd
definitely want want one of the cups you made
yourself.
John Anthony
http://www.redhillpottery.com
steve wrote
>>>I have made small runs of slip cast "short black" coffee cups.
I threw the originals then carved the handles, made multipiece molds of
them both and cast a small run.
these were then wood fired.
I think that they qualify as fine art, not just craft.
(to illustrate this point, I have Jpegs for anyone interested)
I think that they are as good as anyone else's 'hand made' objects.
In fact I consider them hand made objects.
I certainly used my hands to make them. (and my brain)
They required all the same sensitivities and skills that my thrown pots
require.
quite simply, there just isn't any difference.<<<
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