Hollis Engley on mon 8 sep 03
----- Original Message -----
From: Llewellyn Kouba
To:
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: Vases, Flowers, Form and Function
> I hesitate beating an old horse and will try and make this as short as
> possible. I would like some input on 'form and function'. I live under a
> fairly Commercial or public eye with my ceramics. Some time ago I made a
> beautiful pitcher and bowl set in blues. The person who works here with
> fresh cut flowers has recently added large sunflowers from the
> garden. Although the flowers are attractive it is my belief or
'aesthetic'
> that has a conflict in functionality vs. art and decoration. I do not
> think the flowers do the pitcher & bowl justice since the piece was not
> created for that use...
Llewellyn: I don't have a problem with flowers displayed in anything if
they look good. Pitchers actually make quite nice vases, especially if you
like to make pitchers in a day when most people don't use them for their
original purpose.
My problem with the fellow who puts flowers in your pitcher would be a
different one. My experience at shows and at our craft co-op here on Cape
Cod is that people who come into a pottery shop or gallery and see a pitcher
or vase being used to display flowers are much less likely to buy that item,
feeling that it's already in use. That's fine if you have five or six
similar pots for the customer to choose from, but if it's a one-of-a-kind
item I think you've diminished the chance of selling it, no matter how nice
the flowers look.
Hollis
Hatchville Pottery
Falmouth, Mass.
hengley@cape.com
Lois Ruben Aronow on mon 8 sep 03
I took a workshop once with Jack Troy, who said "The Pot is not
complete until the user uses it".
I encourage people to come up with new uses for my pots. I'll do it
myself, like putting pens in a mug at a show. Someone once asked me
what a small lidded vessel was for, and I told him it looked nice at
the bedside holding condoms. He thought it hysterical and bought one.
My joy is in MAKING the pot. I love making pots. At some point, the
potter has to let go and let others gain enjoyment from it in
whichever way they see fit.
************
www.loisaronow.com
=46ine Craft Porcelain and Pottery
New Work for Summer 2003
New Show and Retail information
Gene and Dolita Dohrman on mon 8 sep 03
Llewellyn, My favorite form is the pitcher - I love it because of its
diversity. I can fill it with flowers, I can use if for orange juice. The
same goes for the ginger jar. Even more versatile - it can be filled with
sugar or bath salts or the lid comes off, and it makes the perfect vase.
The more uses one can find for a piece the better. I have a clay coffee
pot. I am never going to pour the coffee out of my glass coffee maker into
this coffee pot. I have been known to use it for flowers. How can one find
this so offensive? I am also a potter - plain and simple. Dolita in
Kentucky
As an artisan and ceramist I generally
> find the use of flower display in pitchers and bowls offensive when we
> have the vase form exactly perfect for that purpose. Are there others who
> agree with my way of thinking? Are there others with a different point of
> view? Perhaps there is someone who is able to state it more clearly? We
> would enjoy hearing your thoughts on this.
>
> Llewellyn Kouba
> Abbey Pottery
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Llewellyn Kouba on mon 8 sep 03
I hesitate beating an old horse and will try and make this as short as
possible. I would like some input on 'form and function'. I live under a
fairly Commercial or public eye with my ceramics. Some time ago I made a
beautiful pitcher and bowl set in blues. The person who works here with
fresh cut flowers has recently added large sunflowers from the
garden. Although the flowers are attractive it is my belief or 'aesthetic'
that has a conflict in functionality vs. art and decoration. I do not
think the flowers do the pitcher & bowl justice since the piece was not
created for that use...nor does the pitcher and bowl do justice to the
flowers, that is what we make vases for. On another note the same person
will turn hand made pottery pieces upside down and use them as pedestals
for other pots. (Does anyone have any extra used bowling balls on hand!)
get the picture. I have spoken to him to try and educate him on the arts
of 'form and function' and although he does a pretty good job with flower
arrangement as such he has a lot to learn. He also continues by and large
to ignore my please on this subject. It is true that he is short handed
with having enough large vases and I have decided it is time to donate once
more. I still do not think this excuses anyone for sloppy display. I just
wanted to hear others views on this one. Of course once a piece is sold you
can never know how a person will use a ceramic form, but I nevertheless
still don't want these things to go on right under my nose. Although it
may not be an important topic to the florist or those who work with flowers
I do think it is important to educate ourselves and others exactly what
'form and function' are all about. As an artisan and ceramist I generally
find the use of flower display in pitchers and bowls offensive when we
have the vase form exactly perfect for that purpose. Are there others who
agree with my way of thinking? Are there others with a different point of
view? Perhaps there is someone who is able to state it more clearly? We
would enjoy hearing your thoughts on this.
Llewellyn Kouba
Abbey Pottery
David Hendley on mon 8 sep 03
To me, a vase can take just about any form. Since you got me
thinking about it, here is what my dictionary says:
"A hollow vessel, generally higher than wide, now chiefly used as
a flower container or for decoration."
That could certainly describe a pitcher. I would bet that at least
half of the pitchers I sell are used only for decoration, and of the
other half, some probably pull double duty as both a container
for liquid and for flowers.
This is a post-modern ceramic world of non-functional teapots,
painted rather than glazed pottery, and forms that imply no
traditional function. In light of that, a concern about the
differences between a pitcher and a vase seems way too
restrictive.
I like to display flowers in old medicine bottles I have found
around my farmstead. Is that also offensive, since they were
not made for that purpose, and I have plenty of "real" vases
on hand?
How about a "non-functional pitcher" with an implied handle
that cannot really be reasonably used?
At it's best, flower arranging is an art worthy of years of
study and practice. Finding unique containers and using them in
unique ways is part of the creative process. It seems that any
potter would be happy to see her work used and displayed in
new ways. I think I would.
By the time the pot is finished, we potters have had our fun.
Why deny the next person their chance to be creative?
Before the clay is dry, potters will readily turn one form
upside down, to use it as a base for another form (footed
bowls, goblets). The non-potter can only assemble pieces
after they are fired.
Of course, the results can be less than great, but that's the way
it goes. I have seen my vases, which were made to be vases,
displayed in people's home filled with gawd-awful artificial
fluorescent pink flowers.
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
> I hesitate beating an old horse and will try and make this as short as
> possible. I would like some input on 'form and function'. I live under a
> fairly Commercial or public eye with my ceramics. Some time ago I made a
> beautiful pitcher and bowl set in blues. The person who works here with
> fresh cut flowers has recently added large sunflowers from the
> garden. Although the flowers are attractive it is my belief or
'aesthetic'
> that has a conflict in functionality vs. art and decoration. I do not
> think the flowers do the pitcher & bowl justice since the piece was not
> created for that use...nor does the pitcher and bowl do justice to the
> flowers, that is what we make vases for. On another note the same person
> will turn hand made pottery pieces upside down and use them as pedestals
> for other pots. (Does anyone have any extra used bowling balls on hand!)
Janet Kaiser on tue 9 sep 03
Hi Llewellyn
You may have noticed I am a rigid proponent of certain rules and
regulations, however, functional jugs, ewers, pitchers, vases,
large vessels, teapots, drinking vessels, bowls... All have been
made to contain water or other liquids and are truly fair game
for the rampant flower arranger or any other use if they are
suitable for the task at hand. For example, I use an egg cup as
an emergency eyewash and cannot imagine the maker would object on
aesthetic or any other grounds. Other ceramic items around the
home which are rarely if ever used for their intended purposes
are a celery vase, a guzunder, a cream separator, a biscuit
barrel, a ewer and wash bowl set, various jugs and chargers, but
all are used in various other ways without any compunction.
I see very little reason to deny any "use" even if it was not the
same as the maker intended nor can one claim that there is a
right and wrong, certainly no aesthetic laws or conventions
broken here, as it is a personal choice on the part of both the
maker and the buyer. Just because the maker conceived and made it
as a teapot, is there anyway wrong for someone else to think of
it and use it as a watering can or a coffee pot? The small vase
in the maker`s mind could be a large drinking vessel in the eye
of the beholder. Imagine trying to tell or "educate" people to
the concept that they will only be allowed to eat spaghetti out
of what was made and marketed as "spaghetti bowls" or milk out of
those "milk jugs"... I don`t think that could possibly be taken
seriously, do you?
HOWEVER, the appropriate exhibition of your work is quite a
different matter altogether. I don`t know what is acceptable
practice in your country, but using "stock" which is for sale
would be considered completely unacceptable in the UK... As soon
as any item on exhibition/for sale has been used, it becomes and
must be classed as a second hand item. Some depreciation in value
or diminished worth is therefore incurred by definition. It must
be labelled and priced accordingly. BTW for those of you ready to
flame my "self-righteous opinion" yet again, it is actually set
out thus in UK consumer law and applies as much to a pot as to a
washing machine.
If someone really wanted to be pedantic, they could claim their
"consumer rights". Even filling a teapot with tap water at the
request of a prospective customer to test how well/poorly it
pours can incur the penalty of the customer turning around and
demanding a price reduction. THIS HAS HAPPENED here and although
I was suitably shocked and outraged, the customer is always
right.... Right?
That was mere tap water... The smelly water and slime which some
cut flowers produce would mean that the vessel would have to be
washed and sterilised... A visiting trading standards officer who
was wanting to be particularly nasty could actually prohibit such
a sale and issue a fine for the vendor even trying. OK, he would
have to know his onions pretty well and have some vindictive
streak, but that would remain his "right" as a law enforcement
officer.
Using work to display other work? Well, I would not turn pots
upside down to use as plinths to display other work, but then
again we run a proper gallery and not a shop, so the exhibits
always stand alone or are "tastefully" grouped. Shops have
various "window display" methods and techniques such as this,
which can be very effective. Again, it is really a matter of
taste. Yes, I can understand how some makers would perceive that
as disrespect for their work, but it surely could not be
considered a mortal sin?
Reading between the lines, I think there is more of a problem or
clash of viewpoints between you and the person in charge at the
place your work is being shown/sold. Could that be so? Perhaps
another quiet but much firmer word about the way your work is
exhibited and what you feel is currently inappropriate
display/use of your work would help resolve the situation? And
maybe in addition to that it would help to try not to feel quite
so protective towards your finished work? I know that is easier
said than done, but being precious about pots is not very
productive for you personally. What about keeping newly made pots
in the studio until such time as you can more happily "wash your
hands of them" and wave them on their merry way? Keep your new
babies but let the teenagers go as they outgrow their welcome...
BTW the most beautiful flower arrangements I have ever seen, were
white water lilies floating in cut-edged ceramic bowls at a
wedding. They were quite stunning and very touching in their
simplicity in that place, at that time and on that occasion.
Believe me, those bowls transcended mere functionality or
decoration beyond anything the maker could have intended or ever
imagined.
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser - anyone interested in the secret of how to keep
water lilies from closing up in the evening can mail me off-line.
*** IN REPLY TO THE FOLLOWING MAIL:
>I hesitate beating an old horse and will try and make this as
short as
>possible. I would like some input on 'form and function'. I
live under a
>fairly Commercial or public eye with my ceramics. Some time ago
I made a
>beautiful pitcher and bowl set in blues. The person who works
here with
>fresh cut flowers has recently added large sunflowers from the
>garden. Although the flowers are attractive it is my belief or
'aesthetic'
>that has a conflict in functionality vs. art and decoration. I
do not
>think the flowers do the pitcher & bowl justice since the piece
was not
>created for that use...nor does the pitcher and bowl do justice
to the
>flowers, that is what we make vases for. On another note the
same person
>will turn hand made pottery pieces upside down and use them as
pedestals
>for other pots. (Does anyone have any extra used bowling balls
on hand!)
>get the picture. I have spoken to him to try and educate him on
the arts
>of 'form and function' and although he does a pretty good job
with flower
>arrangement as such he has a lot to learn. He also continues by
and large
>to ignore my please on this subject. It is true that he is
short handed
>with having enough large vases and I have decided it is time to
donate once
>more. I still do not think this excuses anyone for sloppy
display. I just
>wanted to hear others views on this one. Of course once a piece
is sold you
>can never know how a person will use a ceramic form, but I
nevertheless
>still don't want these things to go on right under my nose.
Although it
>may not be an important topic to the florist or those who work
with flowers
>I do think it is important to educate ourselves and others
exactly what
>'form and function' are all about. As an artisan and ceramist I
generally
>find the use of flower display in pitchers and bowls offensive
when we
>have the vase form exactly perfect for that purpose. Are there
others who
>agree with my way of thinking? Are there others with a different
point of
>view? Perhaps there is someone who is able to state it more
clearly? We
>would enjoy hearing your thoughts on this.
*** THE MAIL FROM Llewellyn Kouba ENDS HERE ***
***********************************************************
The top posted mail was sent by Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art : Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent : Criccieth : Wales : UK
Centre of Excellence for The Arts
Home of The International Potters' Path
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 http://www.the-coa.org.uk
Open: 13.00 to 17.00hrs : Tuesday to Saturday
************** AVG Virus Protected ********************
kruzewski on tue 9 sep 03
From: "Lois Ruben Aronow"
"I took a workshop once with Jack Troy, who said "The Pot is not
complete until the user uses it".
I encourage people to come up with new uses for my pots."
You hit the nail on the head Lois!
My favourate use for a cappuccino cup I sold to a lady who exclaimed it was
just the thing for her to put in and take out her contact lenses. It was as
wide as her face - no more losing dropped lenses in the sink.
The worst is when someone says "of course I will never use it, it's too nice
and I don't want to break it". But then that too is their perogative.
Jacqui
North Wales
Roly Beevor on tue 9 sep 03
Janet Kaiser wrote, "a guzunder"
Janet, is that a thing that "goes under", as in Glororum, a place from which
to "glower over them" (invaders, Danes probably). Or some sort of weird
Australian artifact (in which case the intended function is proably best
glossed over)? Or is it the deep saucer traditionally used in Wales for
drinking the tea (held by resting on the tips of the left hand fingers and
thumb), after pouring delicately from the fine china teacup, with the pinkie
(little finger) properly raised of course (the handle being too small to put
the forefinger through)?
Boggled
Roland
Steve Slatin on tue 9 sep 03
"Guzunder" - traditional (British, IIRC) for the pot which, in the years
before the development of indoor plumbing, goes under the bed for late
night emergency service. Of course, Ms. Kaiser may have meant something
different. Ms. K.?
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Roly Beevor
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 5:03 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Vases, Flowers, Form and Function
Janet Kaiser wrote, "a guzunder"
Janet, is that a thing that "goes under", as in Glororum, a place from
which
to "glower over them" (invaders, Danes probably). Or some sort of weird
Australian artifact (in which case the intended function is proably best
glossed over)? Or is it the deep saucer traditionally used in Wales for
drinking the tea (held by resting on the tips of the left hand fingers
and
thumb), after pouring delicately from the fine china teacup, with the
pinkie
(little finger) properly raised of course (the handle being too small to
put
the forefinger through)?
Boggled
Roland
Llewellyn Kouba on wed 10 sep 03
To: hengley@CAPE.COM Subject: Form & Function
Hollis,
Thank you for responding to my 'form & Function'. It is true I didn't find
the flower look all the bad but what I didn't like for some reason was that
the bowl was under the pitcher and I just kept looking at it and asking ,
pitcher set? flowers? vase? It all just seemed to confuse the viewer.If it
had been just the pitcher alone so you would be drawn to the flowers I
think it would have been more successful but seeing the big top and the big
bottom (bowl) it just looked stupid to me. And as I mentioned I think the
vase does a better job but as you say some people do like the ecclectic? I
sit on the middle of the fence with that issue and more often don't like it
so when in doubt I listen to my gut feeling. Thanks for the input.
Llewellyn
> > I hesitate beating an old horse and will try and make this as short as
> > possible. I would like some input on 'form and function'. I live under a
> > fairly Commercial or public eye with my ceramics. Some time ago I made a
> > beautiful pitcher and bowl set in blues. The person who works here with
> > fresh cut flowers has recently added large sunflowers from the
> > garden. Although the flowers are attractive it is my belief or
>'aesthetic'
> > that has a conflict in functionality vs. art and decoration. I do not
> > think the flowers do the pitcher & bowl justice since the piece was not
> > created for that use...
>
> Llewellyn: I don't have a problem with flowers displayed in anything if
>they look good. Pitchers actually make quite nice vases, especially if you
>like to make pitchers in a day when most people don't use them for their
>original purpose.
> My problem with the fellow who puts flowers in your pitcher would be a
>different one. My experience at shows and at our craft co-op here on Cape
>Cod is that people who come into a pottery shop or gallery and see a pitcher
>or vase being used to display flowers are much less likely to buy that item,
>feeling that it's already in use. That's fine if you have five or six
>similar pots for the customer to choose from, but if it's a one-of-a-kind
>item I think you've diminished the chance of selling it, no matter how nice
>the flowers look.
>Hollis
>Hatchville Pottery
>Falmouth, Mass.
>hengley@cape.com
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Llewellyn Kouba on wed 10 sep 03
Louis,
Thank you for your input on the form and function. Perhaps I am a bit 'old
fashioned' or something, stiff and rigid? I don't know. It is hard for
some (me) to break away from traditional values and traditional
settings. Your point of view certainly has merit and value. Maybe I need
to rethink my ways. Thanks
Llewellyn
At 06:30 PM 9/8/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>I took a workshop once with Jack Troy, who said "The Pot is not
>complete until the user uses it".
>
>I encourage people to come up with new uses for my pots. I'll do it
>myself, like putting pens in a mug at a show. Someone once asked me
>what a small lidded vessel was for, and I told him it looked nice at
>the bedside holding condoms. He thought it hysterical and bought one.
>
>My joy is in MAKING the pot. I love making pots. At some point, the
>potter has to let go and let others gain enjoyment from it in
>whichever way they see fit.
>
>
>
>
>
>************
>www.loisaronow.com
>Fine Craft Porcelain and Pottery
>New Work for Summer 2003
>New Show and Retail information
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Janet Kaiser on wed 10 sep 03
Anwyl Boggled Roland
Naaahhh... We don't cock our pinkies in Wales! How the lads would
laugh down pit. There would be no lifting our head for shame. And
as you know we are all either coal miners or spend our days up
mountains counting sheep. Nothing namby-pamby about us, Boyo!
Don't you come here casting nasturiums!
But even hobnailed coal miners used piss-pots up to the 1970s as
I recall... Saved us groping down the garden path to the Ty Bach,
see you? Unpleasant in the dark and cold, especially for the wife
and kiddywinks.
As for guzunders... Well, really now I come to think of it, that
must have been because of our Mam, whose great aunt Mair twice
removed was in Service up at the Big House in her younger days
before the war and before she got the rheumatism so bad. Refined
she was and liked the gentrified ways of our betters, although
she did not pink her fingers when I saw her aged 92. Sat up in
bed like a ramrod she was. Just like the Queen. I expect she it
was who used to call them a (the receptacle which) GOES UNDER
(the bed). A guzunder... does not sound so common as a
"piss-pot", now does it Bach?
How Mam would look now though. They are called "Chamber Pots" in
the antique shops and sell at prices Tada would work a year or
more to earn down the mines. Duw annwyl, I had better start
treating them with more respect and not just to hold the soaps
those nice hotel people always leave lying around for us to take
home.
Nos da!
Janet Kaiser - who can still aim from a height and hit the
target. Also can remember how scary the eye in the bottom of one
guzunder was and the night when I mistook the litter bin for...
Well, better not tell about that...
*** IN REPLY TO THE FOLLOWING MAIL:
*** From: Roly Beevor
*** E-address: rolybeevor@CHRISTISON.COM
*** Sent: 09/09/2003 Time: 13:02
>Janet Kaiser wrote, "a guzunder"
>Or is it the deep saucer traditionally used in Wales for
>drinking the tea (held by resting on the tips of the left hand
fingers and
>thumb), after pouring delicately from the fine china teacup,
with the
>pinkie (little finger) properly raised of course (the handle
being too
>small to put the forefinger through)?
>Boggled
>Roland
*** THE MAIL FROM Roly Beevor ENDS HERE ***
***********************************************************
The top posted mail was sent by Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art : Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent : Criccieth : Wales : UK
Centre of Excellence for The Arts
Home of The International Potters' Path
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 http://www.the-coa.org.uk
Open: 13.00 to 17.00hrs : Tuesday to Saturday
************** AVG Virus Protected ********************
tsawyer on thu 11 sep 03
I got into pottery almost 30 years ago because of plants and flowers and
making vases, flower pots and bowls is my favorite thing. Frankly, I
like to see the occasional flower in something other than a vase. Seeing
flowers in, lets say, a pitcher is a pleasant surprise - a langiappe.
But I wouldn't want to see a roomfull of flowers in pitchers or sugar
bowls etc... Also floating flowers in a bowlful of water can be quite
attractive; I don't know that I would get hung up on the idea that
flowers should always be in vases.
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Llewellyn
Kouba
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 9:40 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Vases, Flowers, Form and Function
I hesitate beating an old horse and will try and make this as short as
possible. I would like some input on 'form and function'. I live under
a fairly Commercial or public eye with my ceramics. Some time ago I
made a beautiful pitcher and bowl set in blues. The person who works
here with fresh cut flowers has recently added large sunflowers from the
garden. Although the flowers are attractive it is my belief or
'aesthetic' that has a conflict in functionality vs. art and decoration.
I do not think the flowers do the pitcher & bowl justice since the piece
was not created for that use...nor does the pitcher and bowl do justice
to the flowers, that is what we make vases for. On another note the
same person will turn hand made pottery pieces upside down and use them
as pedestals for other pots. (Does anyone have any extra used bowling
balls on hand!) get the picture. I have spoken to him to try and
educate him on the arts of 'form and function' and although he does a
pretty good job with flower arrangement as such he has a lot to learn.
He also continues by and large to ignore my please on this subject. It
is true that he is short handed with having enough large vases and I
have decided it is time to donate once more. I still do not think this
excuses anyone for sloppy display. I just wanted to hear others views
on this one. Of course once a piece is sold you can never know how a
person will use a ceramic form, but I nevertheless still don't want
these things to go on right under my nose. Although it may not be an
important topic to the florist or those who work with flowers I do think
it is important to educate ourselves and others exactly what 'form and
function' are all about. As an artisan and ceramist I generally find
the use of flower display in pitchers and bowls offensive when we have
the vase form exactly perfect for that purpose. Are there others who
agree with my way of thinking? Are there others with a different point
of view? Perhaps there is someone who is able to state it more clearly?
We would enjoy hearing your thoughts on this.
Llewellyn Kouba
Abbey Pottery
________________________________________________________________________
______
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Jan L. Peterson on thu 11 sep 03
I put tiny violets and moss roses and tea roses in votive candle holders, or
sometimes juice glasses. I've floated roses in Brandy Snifters, and put pussy
willows in kerosene lamp tops. I think they all look fine. Little vases are
hard to find, and roses always look romantic floating. Jan, the Alleycat.
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