Cecilia Wian on tue 21 oct 03
While wandering through numerous studios and shops, I've noticed that some
have a section for highly discounted pieces that had minor flaws. Others, as
Lee mentioned in one post, destroy any piece that's not perfect.
I was wondering how or why or any preference?
My current teacher keeps repeating, "You don't have to keep everything you
throw, and you don't have to bisque everything you keep." I'm assuming this
continues to "You don't have to glaze everything you bisque and you don't
have to keep everything you fire."
How do you decide?
Cecilia
Jonathan Kirkendall on tue 21 oct 03
Cecelia,
How and when I decide varies from time to time, but my one guideline is
this: if a stranger saw this, would they be interested in other things that
I produce? As a professional potter, I=B9ve learned that new customers come
from the strangest places. Recently, while making at retreat in Nova
Scotia, I came across another retreatent who I did not know carrying her
coffee in one of my mugs! How odd, I thought. I finally stopped to ask
where she got the mug, and she explained that it was had originally been
given to someone else who gave it to her... turns out we had mutual friends=
,
and my partner had given this friend the mug and this friend passed it on t=
o
this woman...who ended up ordering more, now that she had met the potter!
If I put seconds out to the public, they will come back to bite me in the
butt. I don=B9t want someone picking up a piece of mine, someone who may not
know that it came from the seconds shelf, and see a crack, chip, or glaze
defect and say to themselves =B3So, this is the kind of work that comes out o=
f
Kirkendall Pottery.=B2
When I=B9m at a sale, and there is a place for discounted ware, I will put in
pots that haven=B9t sold for a while that I=B9d like to get rid of so I can mak=
e
more room for new pots, but never pots with cracks or glaze defects.
I=B9ve noticed that some of the buying public love these flaws. =B3Oh, it just
means it=B9s hand made....=B2 they=B9ll say. I chafe at the idea that hand made
means flawed, broken, cracked...as if only machines make flawless work.
Jonathan in DC
On 10/21/03 1:08 PM, "Cecilia Wian" wrote:
> While wandering through numerous studios and shops, I've noticed that som=
e
> have a section for highly discounted pieces that had minor flaws. Others,=
as
> Lee mentioned in one post, destroy any piece that's not perfect.
>=20
> I was wondering how or why or any preference?
>=20
> My current teacher keeps repeating, "You don't have to keep everything yo=
u
> throw, and you don't have to bisque everything you keep." I'm assuming th=
is
> continues to "You don't have to glaze everything you bisque and you don't
> have to keep everything you fire."
>=20
> How do you decide?
>=20
> Cecilia
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
_____
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>=20
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>=20
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>=20
Hollis Engley on tue 21 oct 03
While wandering through numerous studios and shops, I've noticed that some
have a section for highly discounted pieces that had minor flaws. Others, as
Lee mentioned in one post, destroy any piece that's not perfect.
I was wondering how or why or any preference?
Cecilia Wian
Cecilia: I try to destroy anything that would embarrass me if I found it in
a friend's kitchen cabinet. I make lots of pots, so taking a hammer to a few
of them is no big deal. Sometimes things don't work out, handles go wonky,
cracks develop where they don't belong, things warp, glazes don't quite
work, stuff happens, resulting in pots that I don't want to see again.
Then there are those pots that, for one reason or another, are usable and
not embarrassing but are really not first-quality pots. You know, shino mugs
with a dull, oxidized side, a big salad bowl with an s-crack that doesn't
affect its utility, a slight warp in another bowl, stuff like that. I don't
have a "seconds" shelf in my shop, but I keep pots like that around on
shelves in the pottery and give them away to friends or relatives who show
an interest. I have a couple of nieces and a brother-in-law who will taken
ANYTHING and love it and use it. (And I make sure that I give them some of
the good stuff, too.)
Of course, practically everything I made in the first five years or so of
learning about clay is a second. And the real problem with giving away work
in those early years - even if it's work that you're proud of - is that it
comes back to haunt you. Guaranteed. My mother-in-law has a dreadful mug,
with an awful handle and a turquoise speckled glaze that I made up by adding
some wood ash and cobalt carb to a studio white cone 8 oxidation glaze. More
than once I've offered to buy it back, replace it with anything she wanted,
but she won't let it go. "It's my favorite mug!" she says. Gag. So, be
careful what you don't take a hammer to.
Hollis Engley
Hatchville Pottery
Falmouth, Mass.
hengley@cape.com
Janet Kaiser on wed 22 oct 03
Cecilia. It depends on the economics of your situation just as
much as the aesthetics, the morality and the ego! Some people can
go through the whole process and then decide they are going to
(a) hammer the pot (b) keep it for personal use only (c) sell it
willy-nilly, warts and all (d) give it to their mother-in-law for
Christmas... Or the parish priest, doctor, dentist, teacher,
neighbours, local charity shop... All sorts of places to "donate"
work that is "too good to waste"!
The decision where a finished pot is going to end up could be
based on anything from minor flaws to major defects or the pot
simply did not turn out the way that was planned.
A hungry potter having to make every single pot a money-spinning
earner, is going try to sell each one no matter what. It may well
be against their better judgement, but hey! Someone somewhere is
going to love it and buy it, even with quite major faults...
However, the prima diva potter would never have any sub-standard
work of theirs out in the world. No way... They are probably more
able to afford that very easy decision to hammer each and every
piece that does not meet their very highest standards and is
PERFECT.
Most potters are naturally in between these two extremes. The
extra good pots are sold at the highest price and so on down to
the seconds which get put into a corner / basket / bottom shelf /
under the counter. Those without much money to spend then at
least buy something more than a mug... Along with the tight-wads.
But that is another story!
On the whole, if a "flaw" is going to affect the FUNCTION of the
piece it is not put onto any shelf. Basta! Hammering, keeping for
reference and/or decoration and ma-in-law's Christmas present are
the ONLY alternatives for good karma.
This is an easy decision based on the "morality" of the
situation... What affects function? Anything which SHOULD hold a
liquid, but does not... Pots which leak either through S-cracks,
poor joints or are porous / have a poor glaze. Pots which could
HARM the user or DAMAGE their belongings... Chips on the lips or
spouts of drinking/pouring vessels... Dangerously sharp bits,
pots which would scratch surfaces, badly cracked handles... All
the faults that you would probably NOT buy yourself, if it was
for sale at Walmart.
What I call "spotting, spitting and pitting"? Well as long as it
is not a bad attack of lime popping, they are a personal thing
altogether. The "aesthetic" part of the equation. Each person has
their own standards here. Pinholes are not going to worry one
potter, but would be hammered by the next.
Minor attacks of bloating, crawling, cracking, crackling,
crazing... All the imperfections which hardly affect the
functionality too much, just the "way it looks".... Now THEY
start to become a "grey zone". For example, when is crazing a
serious fault and not a minor imperfection?
But your teacher is quite right to be advising you not to be too
precious about your work at each and every stage. There is not a
potter alive who does not wish they could recall some of their
past work... But like I say, sometimes the economic reality of
HAVING to sell and make some money over-rules their better
judgement, especially in the early days. And the urge to get out
selling work before one is really skilled enough is another time
when "seconds" are more often sold... Often those real "newbies"
are not even aware that they are flawed and at other times they
are under such pressure to "put on a show" that they have to put
every single pot they have out...
At the end of the day, if perfect pots were the only ones "worth"
selling and/or buying, then no one should be making pots
individually at all! Manufacturer's have the edge there, with the
possible exception of mould-makers. But I am of the school of
thought that it is the little "imperfections" which give pots
individual character. As long as it is not going to spoil my
table top, break off in my hand or cut my lip, more or less
"anything goes" for me personally. As long as it is only a
superficial fault like smudged decoration, a little uneven around
the rim, slight warping, uneven salting... All the little things
that the potter would not have been very happy about, but which
remind me that it was HAND MADE after all. These things do happen
to even the most consistently good potters and their work.
Anyway, I must get off to bed... Another long day tomorrow...
Hope this half answers your question!
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser
*** IN REPLY TO THE FOLLOWING MAIL:
>While wandering through numerous studios and shops, I've noticed
that some
>have a section for highly discounted pieces that had minor
flaws. Others,
>as Lee mentioned in one post, destroy any piece that's not
perfect.
>I was wondering how or why or any preference?
>My current teacher keeps repeating, "You don't have to keep
everything you
>throw, and you don't have to bisque everything you keep." I'm
assuming this
>continues to "You don't have to glaze everything you bisque and
you don't
>have to keep everything you fire."
>
>How do you decide?
*** THE MAIL FROM Cecilia Wian ENDS HERE ***
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Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 http://www.the-coa.org.uk
Open: 13.00 to 17.00hrs : Tuesday to Saturday
************** AVG Virus Protected ********************
Jennifer Boyer on wed 22 oct 03
Over the last 30 years of throwing production pots, I've produced A LOT
of seconds. I sell them for 30% off retail at my studio. At this point
my seconds are because of glaze irregularity, smudged overglaze
decoration, kiln dandruff, warping, clay impuriteis, small bottom
S-cracks: all stuff that I don't see til I'm unloading the glaze kiln.
I sell them because the imperfections are minor, don't affect the
usability and don't bother the customers in the least. They seem to
like them, saying they are barely noticable and just show that the pots
were made by a human being....
I have a major problem with sending pots to the land fill, although I
do send some if they are cracked or just too badly flawed. I'd rather
have cheap hand made pots bought by people who don't think they can
afford my usual prices: Jonathan's right: get handmade pots into their
hands(even flawed ones) and they will get addicted!
Jennifer
On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 07:55 PM, Hollis Engley wrote:
> While wandering through numerous studios and shops, I've noticed that
> some
> have a section for highly discounted pieces that had minor flaws.
> Others, as
> Lee mentioned in one post, destroy any piece that's not perfect.
> I was wondering how or why or any preference?
> Cecilia Wian
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
***********************************************
never pass on virus warnings or emails with checking them at:
http://snopes.com
Jennifer Boyer - Thistle Hill Pottery
Montpelier, VT 05602
http://thistlehillpottery.com
***********************************************
nancy patterson on thu 23 oct 03
I have given my seconds to mosaic artists
in my neighborhood. They love them!
On 10/22/03 12:30 PM, "Jennifer Boyer" wrote:
> Over the last 30 years of throwing production pots, I've produced A LOT
> of seconds. I sell them for 30% off retail at my studio. At this point
> my seconds are because of glaze irregularity, smudged overglaze
> decoration, kiln dandruff, warping, clay impuriteis, small bottom
> S-cracks: all stuff that I don't see til I'm unloading the glaze kiln.
>
> I sell them because the imperfections are minor, don't affect the
> usability and don't bother the customers in the least. They seem to
> like them, saying they are barely noticable and just show that the pots
> were made by a human being....
>
> I have a major problem with sending pots to the land fill, although I
> do send some if they are cracked or just too badly flawed. I'd rather
> have cheap hand made pots bought by people who don't think they can
> afford my usual prices: Jonathan's right: get handmade pots into their
> hands(even flawed ones) and they will get addicted!
>
> Jennifer
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 07:55 PM, Hollis Engley wrote:
>
>> While wandering through numerous studios and shops, I've noticed that
>> some
>> have a section for highly discounted pieces that had minor flaws.
>> Others, as
>> Lee mentioned in one post, destroy any piece that's not perfect.
>> I was wondering how or why or any preference?
>> Cecilia Wian
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>> _______
>> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>> melpots@pclink.com.
>>
>>
> ***********************************************
> never pass on virus warnings or emails with checking them at:
> http://snopes.com
>
> Jennifer Boyer - Thistle Hill Pottery
> Montpelier, VT 05602
> http://thistlehillpottery.com
> ***********************************************
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
Marty Morgan on fri 24 oct 03
I save all my seconds from one firing to the next and twice a year hold a
"seconds" sale. My longtime customers (from being in the same area for
thirty years) show up on the dot of 10 am to have first choice. These
pieces are 50% off the regular price, which is what I would get if selling
firsts wholesale.
Of course I always make sure I have lots of new work in my shop at the time
of the sale. I find the sales end up being roughly 60% new work and 40%
seconds as once customers are there they remember needing a wedding present
etc. Some of the pots on sale have just been around too long and need a
home, so there is nothing "wrong" with them. People who have started out by
buying work at the sale have become good customers. Any work that is
cracked, chipped or too gross to bother grinding the drips goes in a box
for a friend who does mosaics. The rest of the year no seconds are
available, anyone wanting them signs my mailing list and gets a postcard
about the sale.
Marty Morgan
in Gloucester MA, where there was snow falling yesterday am - I'm ready to
join Wayne-in-Key West- but my husband says snow doesn't count unless you
have to shovel it.
Bobbruch1@AOL.COM on sat 25 oct 03
My view of "seconds" is that they are full scale test tiles. Cone 6 oxidation
glazes can become more interesting when you apply one glaze over another. I
have found that results differ when you put the covering glaze over an
existing glaze vs. applying both on bisque ware. I often get very different results
on larger peices than I do on test tiles, so experimenting on "seconds" makes
more sense than trying it out for the first time on one's best work.
Bob Bruch
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