Tracy Shea on wed 22 oct 03
good news, i lost my job. i've been a thoroughly addicted "hobby =
potter" for almost 20 years because i've been scared to death to jump in =
and try to make a living. now i'm in a situation where i have to make =
some $, and, my pots are consistently worth selling.
well, i did a little harvest festival craft show a few weeks ago, sold =
some stuff, and got an order for 8 place settings, water glasses, mugs, =
serving bowls, the whole mess!!!!!!
it made me feel pretty darn good. so far, so good. i threw 12 of each =
piece, glaze firing about 2/3 of it today....wish me luck......
anyway, i'm looking for advice on the "business end" of this whole trip. =
i really wanna make this work, but i don't have any degree in art or =
business -=20
i'm currently rereading steve branfman's book "the potters professional =
handbook"- and it's definitely giving me some direction to go in, but =
are there any other suggestions for good craft / business type books, =
info i might find online, anything?? i REALLY want to be successful =
at this, i keep telling my hubby with a smile "don't MAKE me get a real =
job!" =20
i've got a friend working on a website for me, and i'm teaching a few =
homeschool classes.=20
what's the best way to approach galleries? =20
how do you "find" your customer??? i keep seeing sticker shock on some =
of my friends/ family faces, and i don't feel i'm overpricing anything. =
in fact, i'm doing this set of dishes for around $500 and beginning to =
think i'm nuts- but i'm enjoying the hell out of the experience. =20
is it all trial and error?? - i want to work smart - i don't have an =
infinite amount of time before the $ runs out.=20
thanks for reading my rambling and for any help you can give.=20
oh, yeah, tar paper bats are great, and, ron, i wanna be the president =
of your fan club! m^6 has opened a lot of new doors for the =
mathematical illiterate that is me..
tracy shea
garrettsville, oh.
ccpottery@BELLSOUTH.NET on wed 22 oct 03
Trust me ... if you are going to be running your own pottery business you have got at least
three real jobs.
One thing I can address is the Business aspects of Pottery.
Good Basic Books ....
Crafting as a Business ... Wendy Rosen ...
ISBN 0-80198-632-X
Your Crafts Business, A Legal Guide ... Richard Stim ...
ISBN 0-87337-838-5
Getting Business to Come to You ... Paul & Sarah Edwards ...
ISBN 0-87477-629-5
101 Ways to Promote Yourself ... Raleigh Pinsky ...
ISBN 0-380-78508-0
Book of Interest ...
Stayin Alive/ Survial Tactics for the Visual Artist ... Robin Hopper ...
ISBN 0-87349-571-3
Magazines ....
The Crafts Report ... a great business reference for artists
Pottery Making Illustrated ... I write a column every issue and so far I have covered every
single question you asked in your original post. Go to your library and photocopy some
old issues.
On the Internet ...
The Crafts Report website discussion forum. Browse the archives.
J Iverson's website offers lots of free business info. Click on the FAQ's.
Classes ...
The Crafts Business Institute offers weekend workshops to jump start your career. Check
in on the web for dates and locations.
Take Credit Cards !!! Call Arts and Crafts Business Solutions ... they specialize in
working with artists ... 800- 873-1192.
That's all I can think of offhand
Good Luck
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina - the kiln is cooling and I cannot wait to take a peek!
This time tomorrow I'll either be laughing or working like a fool to make more.
"Pottery by Potters"
Chris Campbell Pottery, llc
9417 Koupela Drive
Raleigh, NC 27615
1-800-652-1008
FAX : 919-676-2062
E Mail : chris@ccpottery.com
Wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com
Coming soon!! www.ccpottery.com
Neil Fallon on wed 22 oct 03
Tracey,
One of the best books I read recently on becoming a visual artist is a book
titled "Taking the Leap: Building a Career as a Visual Artist" by Cay Lang.
It is a very good book on the business basics of being an artist. (For me
artist is interchangeable with craftsperson, but that has been a subject of
numerous past discussion, so let's not go there.) I understand that Robin
Hopper has written a book called "Staying Alive: Survival Tactics for the
Visual Artist." I haven't read this book but it has received some buzz in
the clay publications.
Good luck with your endeavor.
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Tracy Shea
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 9:33 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: i don't wanna get a "real job"!
good news, i lost my job. i've been a thoroughly addicted "hobby potter"
for almost 20 years because i've been scared to death to jump in and try to
make a living. now i'm in a situation where i have to make some $, and, my
pots are consistently worth selling.
well, i did a little harvest festival craft show a few weeks ago, sold some
stuff, and got an order for 8 place settings, water glasses, mugs, serving
bowls, the whole mess!!!!!!
it made me feel pretty darn good. so far, so good. i threw 12 of each
piece, glaze firing about 2/3 of it today....wish me luck......
anyway, i'm looking for advice on the "business end" of this whole trip. i
really wanna make this work, but i don't have any degree in art or
business -
i'm currently rereading steve branfman's book "the potters professional
handbook"- and it's definitely giving me some direction to go in, but are
there any other suggestions for good craft / business type books, info i
might find online, anything?? i REALLY want to be successful at this, i
keep telling my hubby with a smile "don't MAKE me get a real job!"
i've got a friend working on a website for me, and i'm teaching a few
homeschool classes.
what's the best way to approach galleries?
how do you "find" your customer??? i keep seeing sticker shock on some of
my friends/ family faces, and i don't feel i'm overpricing anything. in
fact, i'm doing this set of dishes for around $500 and beginning to think
i'm nuts- but i'm enjoying the hell out of the experience.
is it all trial and error?? - i want to work smart - i don't have an
infinite amount of time before the $ runs out.
thanks for reading my rambling and for any help you can give.
oh, yeah, tar paper bats are great, and, ron, i wanna be the president of
your fan club! m^6 has opened a lot of new doors for the mathematical
illiterate that is me..
tracy shea
garrettsville, oh.
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Burness Speakman on thu 23 oct 03
A poster wrote..>> "Trust me ... if you are going to be running your own
pottery business you have got at least three real jobs."
That is hardly supportive. Some of us live in economically depressed areas
that don't provide one job for a person, much less 3. This gotta
be "employeed" mentality is very restrictive to being independent. More and
more people loose their jobs every year and do not know what to do except
become homeless. A 3 job outlook is indicative to just how bad the American
dollar is sliding. Some of us are no longer depending upon the "benefits"
provided by employment by creating American made products and hoping
Americans will buy them in liew of Chinese junk. The only way I see for
Americans to become independent upon China and employment is to struggle
for independence. Some people will find that too insecure and cling to
dependence upon a failing system.
Find local and distant craft and art fairs, hang a shingle out proclaiming
your wares, tell everyone, look for shops that take consignments or willing
to show your stuff. File for unemployment if you must. Ask questions
everywhere for leads to prospective buyers and places to sell.
Good luck
Bunny
Snail Scott on thu 23 oct 03
At 08:55 AM 10/23/03 -0400, you wrote:
>A poster wrote..>> "Trust me ... if you are going to be running your own
>pottery business you have got at least three real jobs."
>
>That is hardly supportive. Some of us live in economically depressed areas
>that don't provide one job for a person, much less 3.
I don't think they meant that a potter NEEDS three
'real' jobs. I think they meant that being a potter
IS three real jobs! (And they were right, both in
terms of the workload and in terms of the skillsets
required.)
-Snail
Lois Ruben Aronow on thu 23 oct 03
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:55:15 -0400, you wrote:
>A poster wrote..>> "Trust me ... if you are going to be running your own
>pottery business you have got at least three real jobs."
>
>That is hardly supportive. Some of us live in economically depressed =
areas
>that don't provide one job for a person, much less 3. This gotta
>be "employeed" mentality is very restrictive to being independent.=20
I don't see it as being unsupportive. I see it as being realistic.
It was my husband who pointed out to me that I don't have a job - I
have a business. And aside from actually running this business, it's
a chore just educating even friends and relatives that this is a real
live business, and not just "wifey's little hobby".
Aside from making, designing, marketing and selling the work I do,
there is the whole business end of record keeping, tax paying, balance
sheets...and I'm just doing this on a small scale. My work doesn't
(yet) support my family, and barely pays for itself.
> Some of us are no longer depending upon the "benefits"
>provided by employment by creating American made products and hoping
>Americans will buy them in liew of Chinese junk. The only way I see for
>Americans to become independent upon China and employment is to struggle
>for independence. Some people will find that too insecure and cling to
>dependence upon a failing system.
It's not just "chinese junk" that is our competition. It is OTHER
AMERICAN POTTERS who license out their designs, under their own
names, and have it mass produced and marketed. Any craftsperson who
is hand making their work needs to be keenly aware of this, and needs
to shrewdly market their work as handmade, and sell in venues that
will be friendly and receptive to handmade work, both in appreciation
and price.
************
Lois Ruben Aronow
www.loisaronow.com
Modern Porcelain and Tableware
Earl Brunner on fri 24 oct 03
The IRS doesn't care if my pottery is a hobby or a business. If I make
money at it, they are just tickled pink to take taxes out of it. On the
other hand they do want a business to turn a profit periodically in
order for me to right off the expenses. That's fair.
I could really care less if BunBun thinks I'm a "full time" potter or
not. Ewww, like I care!! Van Gogh's life sucked. My medical expenses
run over $5,000.00 per month. The "real job" pays the insurance for
that, I pay maybe $150.00 of that. Pottery ain't going to do that for
me.
BUT, I get to make any thing I WANT to out of clay. I don't give a POOP
if I ever sell anything, and I'm the happiest I've been with clay in 30
years.
Whatever.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Burness
Speakman
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 4:38 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: i don't wanna get a "real job"!
>>>>"My work doesn't(yet) support my family, and barely pays for
itself."
When I was raising 10 horses whose net value was a minimum value of
25,000,
shoveling manure by the load full, being my own vet, shoer, trainer, and
tax consultant, the IRS told me it was only a hobby. I can understand
why
people think what you are doing is "only a hobby".
My pottery is our only source of income so it cannot be construed as a
hobby. When I see someone who has a hubby that is bringing in the money
that allows the family to have insurance coverage of any sort, pays the
bills, drives a car newer than 1980, has store bought cloths, buys at
walmart, can afford to go on vacations or even a movie, I do call that a
hobby, in drag. Most peoples definition of "business" is only an
extension
of what the law says it is, not what it really is. The same with a
hobby.
The meanings of these words are basically legal terms used for tax
purposes
in order to give a performance under the law.
Some of you may have competition, but I don't. Just a fact. Nobody has
what
I have because I make that so.
I do not support Chinese "junk" because I support American business that
are, and have been distroyed by a foreign country. I will continue to
call
it "junk" until all Americans can afford our own products again. When a
country's work force becomes "service" orientated work force instead of
a "production" work force, that country is in serious trouble.
Eventually
the ones being "served" by that job, will run out and production will
have
to come back.
I say no more.
Bunny
Burness Speakman on fri 24 oct 03
>>>>"My work doesn't(yet) support my family, and barely pays for itself."
When I was raising 10 horses whose net value was a minimum value of 25,000,
shoveling manure by the load full, being my own vet, shoer, trainer, and
tax consultant, the IRS told me it was only a hobby. I can understand why
people think what you are doing is "only a hobby".
My pottery is our only source of income so it cannot be construed as a
hobby. When I see someone who has a hubby that is bringing in the money
that allows the family to have insurance coverage of any sort, pays the
bills, drives a car newer than 1980, has store bought cloths, buys at
walmart, can afford to go on vacations or even a movie, I do call that a
hobby, in drag. Most peoples definition of "business" is only an extension
of what the law says it is, not what it really is. The same with a hobby.
The meanings of these words are basically legal terms used for tax purposes
in order to give a performance under the law.
Some of you may have competition, but I don't. Just a fact. Nobody has what
I have because I make that so.
I do not support Chinese "junk" because I support American business that
are, and have been distroyed by a foreign country. I will continue to call
it "junk" until all Americans can afford our own products again. When a
country's work force becomes "service" orientated work force instead of
a "production" work force, that country is in serious trouble. Eventually
the ones being "served" by that job, will run out and production will have
to come back.
I say no more.
Bunny
Rob Van Rens on fri 24 oct 03
----- Original Message -----
From: "Burness Speakman"
> >>>>"My work doesn't(yet) support my family, and barely pays for itself."
>
> My pottery is our only source of income so it cannot be construed as a
> hobby. When I see someone who has a hubby that is bringing in the money
> that allows the family to have insurance coverage of any sort, pays the
> bills, drives a car newer than 1980, has store bought cloths, buys at
> walmart, can afford to go on vacations or even a movie, I do call that a
> hobby, in drag.
How about someone whose WIFE earms a good living at a corporate job she
likes and is good at, so that, yes, we can have health insurance and a
retirement plan, while "hubby" works 12 hour days 7 days a week, draws only
enough salary for expenses, and generally works like a friggin' DOG now so
that in five years I can have the freedom to do what I want, without the
pressure to turn out 500 coffee cups a week to make a living as a potter?
According to you, that makes me a hobbyist ("in drag").
Burness, I usually resist the temptation, strong though it is, to respond to
your posts. This time, though, I take GREAT exception to your statements.
I'm not talking about the nonsense you're spouting regarding legal
definitions of business; that's just your ignorance showing. What I am
DEEPLY offended at is the implication that I, and others in my position, are
somehow "playing" at running a business, because we are unwilling to starve
while we try and sell our pots.
I am a potter, first and foremost. I'm not a prolific potter, I'm not a
production potter, I'm mostly self-taught and happy about it. I'm not going
to make a living selling tableware or anything like that. Instead, I own a
BUSINESS that serves other potters, and allows me the opportunity to make my
own work (and sell it). No, I don't spend nearly as much time in the studio
as I'd like. But I still manage a kiln-load a month or so, which is enough
to keep me sane.
In the meantime, my wife "works for the man". She likes it. She is well
paid for it. She's good at it. She works weekends here (for no pay) so
that I have an extra set of hands. She also makes sure that we have health,
dental, and vision isnurance. THESE ARE NOT LUXURIES. Last spring I needed
to have a cardiac procedure done. It would have cost L:ITERALLY 10's of
thousands of dollars without insurance. I could not have hoped to afford
that.
My wife is not a domestic goddess. She doesn't cook, and she only cleans
when comapny is coming. It would be stupid for her to try and be something
she's not.
We do in fact drive two cars newer than 1980. In fact, my pickup is a 1995.
It hauls many tons of clay a week. It hauls wood and mulch and manure on
the weekends. My wife's car is a 1989 Honda. It's cheap to operate,
reliable, and apparently much too posh for the likes of you, which is really
a laugh.
We go to movies from time to time, too. In August, we went on weeks'
vacation. I spent two days lying in a hammock while my back adjusted to not
moving clay for the first time in weeks. it felt damn good. We even have
cable TV...a neccessity in the mountains, where we always keep a close eye
on the weather. No reception for aerial antennae anyway. Of course, I'm
sure you don't have luxuries like TV in your little utopia of poverty...
>Most peoples definition of "business" is only an extension
> of what the law says it is, not what it really is.
Huh??????????????????????????????????????
>The same with a hobby.
> The meanings of these words are basically legal terms used for tax
purposes
> in order to give a performance under the law.
Again, huh?????????????????????????????????
A hobbyist, and damn proud of it!!!!
Rob Van Rens
Frederick Clay Art Center
5400 Yukon Ct, Unit 500
Frederick, MD 21758
(301) 676-9339
Gene and Dolita Dohrman on fri 24 oct 03
Bunny, If you cannot afford any of the things listed below and you say you
have no competition, then you must not be doing very well. If you have a
family and no insurance coverage, that is just plain scary. Of course,
everyone has their own idea of what "doing well" may be. This whole thing
has been hashed out before. You have made a choice to produce items of
luxury (and that is exactly what pottery is in this day and age) in an area
that is financially repressed. I find you strangely bitter. What is up with
that? Dolita
dohrman@insightbb.com
Louisville, KY
>
> My pottery is our only source of income so it cannot be construed as a
> hobby. When I see someone who has a hubby that is bringing in the money
> that allows the family to have insurance coverage of any sort, pays the
> bills, drives a car newer than 1980, has store bought cloths, buys at
> walmart, can afford to go on vacations or even a movie, I do call that a
> hobby, in drag. Most peoples definition of "business" is only an extension
> of what the law says it is, not what it really is. The same with a hobby.
> The meanings of these words are basically legal terms used for tax
purposes
> in order to give a performance under the law.
>
> Some of you may have competition, but I don't. Just a fact. Nobody has
what
> I have because I make that so.
>
Neil Fallon on fri 24 oct 03
What a wonderful world we enjoy here within Clayart. We had one very simple
question from one of us asking for information on good resources that may
help that person kick start her business. Today, that one simple question
has brought us a number of posting discussing hobby vs. business, jobs
outside clay, clay as numerous jobs and a great number of pats on the back
with encouragement.
This is the exact reason I pour a cup of coffee and read read and read.
By the way I'm with Rob on this one.
Neil Fallon
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Rob Van Rens
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 12:12 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: i don't wanna get a "real job"!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Burness Speakman"
> >>>>"My work doesn't(yet) support my family, and barely pays for itself."
>
> My pottery is our only source of income so it cannot be construed as a
> hobby. When I see someone who has a hubby that is bringing in the money
> that allows the family to have insurance coverage of any sort, pays the
> bills, drives a car newer than 1980, has store bought cloths, buys at
> walmart, can afford to go on vacations or even a movie, I do call that a
> hobby, in drag.
How about someone whose WIFE earms a good living at a corporate job she
likes and is good at, so that, yes, we can have health insurance and a
retirement plan, while "hubby" works 12 hour days 7 days a week, draws only
enough salary for expenses, and generally works like a friggin' DOG now so
that in five years I can have the freedom to do what I want, without the
pressure to turn out 500 coffee cups a week to make a living as a potter?
According to you, that makes me a hobbyist ("in drag").
Burness, I usually resist the temptation, strong though it is, to respond to
your posts. This time, though, I take GREAT exception to your statements.
I'm not talking about the nonsense you're spouting regarding legal
definitions of business; that's just your ignorance showing. What I am
DEEPLY offended at is the implication that I, and others in my position, are
somehow "playing" at running a business, because we are unwilling to starve
while we try and sell our pots.
I am a potter, first and foremost. I'm not a prolific potter, I'm not a
production potter, I'm mostly self-taught and happy about it. I'm not going
to make a living selling tableware or anything like that. Instead, I own a
BUSINESS that serves other potters, and allows me the opportunity to make my
own work (and sell it). No, I don't spend nearly as much time in the studio
as I'd like. But I still manage a kiln-load a month or so, which is enough
to keep me sane.
In the meantime, my wife "works for the man". She likes it. She is well
paid for it. She's good at it. She works weekends here (for no pay) so
that I have an extra set of hands. She also makes sure that we have health,
dental, and vision isnurance. THESE ARE NOT LUXURIES. Last spring I needed
to have a cardiac procedure done. It would have cost L:ITERALLY 10's of
thousands of dollars without insurance. I could not have hoped to afford
that.
My wife is not a domestic goddess. She doesn't cook, and she only cleans
when comapny is coming. It would be stupid for her to try and be something
she's not.
We do in fact drive two cars newer than 1980. In fact, my pickup is a 1995.
It hauls many tons of clay a week. It hauls wood and mulch and manure on
the weekends. My wife's car is a 1989 Honda. It's cheap to operate,
reliable, and apparently much too posh for the likes of you, which is really
a laugh.
We go to movies from time to time, too. In August, we went on weeks'
vacation. I spent two days lying in a hammock while my back adjusted to not
moving clay for the first time in weeks. it felt damn good. We even have
cable TV...a neccessity in the mountains, where we always keep a close eye
on the weather. No reception for aerial antennae anyway. Of course, I'm
sure you don't have luxuries like TV in your little utopia of poverty...
>Most peoples definition of "business" is only an extension
> of what the law says it is, not what it really is.
Huh??????????????????????????????????????
>The same with a hobby.
> The meanings of these words are basically legal terms used for tax
purposes
> in order to give a performance under the law.
Again, huh?????????????????????????????????
A hobbyist, and damn proud of it!!!!
Rob Van Rens
Frederick Clay Art Center
5400 Yukon Ct, Unit 500
Frederick, MD 21758
(301) 676-9339
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Lori Leary on fri 24 oct 03
Bunny wrote:
My pottery is our only source of income so it cannot be construed as a
hobby. When I see someone who has a hubby that is bringing in the money
that allows the family to have insurance coverage of any sort, pays the
bills, drives a car newer than 1980, has store bought cloths, buys at
walmart, can afford to go on vacations or even a movie, I do call that a
hobby, in drag.....
Gee Bunny, I can hardly believe what I am reading. No need to diminish what other potters are doing just because you are not doing well. I've always felt the best way to get along in life is to just do the work....why compare yourself to others...it's an easy road to unhappiness and dissatisfaction.
Lori L.
Les on sat 25 oct 03
I know I should not get involved in this and will probaly get "flamed" but I
find it easier in our "socialist" state of Canada. We pay up front rather
steeply but when it comes to a health disaster and you "must " go into the
hospital ( I was in for colon cancer, and 3 times in 5 months in the ICU
with my heart a few years ago) you have your operation or whatever and when
you have recovered sufficiently to go home, you thank them very much and go
home. No bills arrive at the door afterwards.
Les Crimp in Nanoose Bay, B.C. ( on damp but great fall day on Vancouver
Island)
lcrimp@shaw.ca
----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl Brunner"
To:
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: i don't wanna get a "real job"!
> That's fine, just STAY in your world when you or yours get a
> catastrophic illness; because if you go to the hospital and can't pay,
> then you are passing the cost on to everyone else. The hospital will
> recoup its cost by passing it on to those who DO pay. Insurance is like
> a co-op, everyone in the "group" pays in, and a certain percentage gets
> their expenses covered when they have them. They have and use
> statistical tables to determine the risks and costs.
>
> I repeat, when you get sick, stay in your world.
>
> Which third world country do you know that is on a gold standard? I
> don't know any.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Burness
> Speakman
> Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 6:55 AM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: i don't wanna get a "real job"!
>
> "Bunny, If you cannot afford any of the things listed below and you say
> you
> have no competition, then you must not be doing very well."
>
> Do you happen to know what a third world country is? It is a country
> whose
> monetary system is backed by gold and silver not credit and paper.
> Insurance is nothing more than passing the buck to an entity to accept
> the
> resposibility of injury and to pay the bills one cannot afford to pay.
> If
> that is "scary" to you that is because it the "rug" that can be pulled
> out
> from under your feet. God forbid one would have to be liable and held
> responsible for ones own accidents or illnesses. Credit is nothing more
> than passing the buck to an entity to purchase something one cannot
> afford
> to buy outright. (Mortgages, clothing, cars, etc.) Electricity is a
> luxury
> not a necessity. Water and food is a necessity not a luxury. Back to
> credit
> and paper. I do not consider an illusion as doing well anymore than
> stark
> dependency upon something that might not be there tomorrow. If you are
> relying upon credit, medical insurance, etc. I find that not doing well.
>
> I do not consider a cup and plate a luxury. I find them necessaries, I
> prefer eating off of one than eating out of my hand. A sculpture
> certainly
> is luxury.
>
> If you have competition then you must be working your butt off to keep
> up
> with them.
>
> We live in two different America's. I prefer mine, it is more secure.
>
>
> Bunny
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
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> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Earl Brunner on sat 25 oct 03
For lack of something better, basic health insurance is a necessity. I
believe that. Is there a better system? Probably, does the U.S. have
it? No.
I have rheumatoid arthritis. Three years go I couldn't get out of bed.
I couldn't stand on my feet. I have worn braces on my knees, elbows and
wrists. The medication that I take, that costs so much is a monoclonal
antibody. It is one of the newer drugs that are making a HUGE
difference for those with autoimmune diseases. It blocks tumor necrosis
factor alpha, a key cause of inflammation in rheumatoid arthritis. I
think it is genetically engineered, and like I said, it costs a bundle.
In my group plan, I would be one of those driving up the over all cost
of the insurance. But I don't see where I'm driving up what is charged
for the drug.
We have hospitals in our community that may not turn away individuals.
IF they don't pay, tell me who does? I agree the system is a mess. We
need better, cheaper health for those who can't afford it.
Maybe I read her wrong, Bunny said she didn't have health insurance, and
maybe she can't afford it. But she implied that she wouldn't have it if
she could afford it. There's a difference.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Norman van
der Sluys
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 4:58 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: i don't wanna get a "real job"!
Don't be fooled by the terminology. Health "insurance" is not insurance
in the conventional sense, but rather prepayment.
Ours is the only developed
nation on this earth that believes it is right and proper to profit from
the injury and illness of others. A national health care system such as
in place north of our border ( or south of it if you live in Michign as
I do :<) ) would go a long way to ease the burden of those living in
poverty or close to it in this country. Please remember that 43 million
people in our nation who work for a living and are not on the dole are
denied access to our health care system. It is the reason our system
has been ranked as 23rd by the World Health Organization.
If you really believe that you are paying for those who cannot afford
health insurance, just inquire about the difference between what your
insurance provider pays and what would be charged to a patient without
insurance. As a nation, we pay nearly twice as much for health care as
any other nation on earth. The idea that we have the best health care
in the world is largely a myth. We may have the most advanced
technology, but our medical professionals are not nearly as skilled in
diagnosis as the physicians of 50 years ago. Without the technology
they would be lost.
I don't know what your health situation is, but that cost of $5000 a
month makes me believe that you are a lot more guilty of driving up the
cost of health care than is Bunny. I don't fault you for it, It is a
life circumstance you probably had no control over. Feel fortunate that
your circumstances permit you to pay only 3% of the cost. But don't
castigate Bunny for her inability to afford health insurance. She is
not to blame for that $5000/month health care cost.
It has been shown that a single payer system can cut costs enormously
just because of reduced administrative costs and greater bargaining
power. A universal health care system would also add something that is
sadly lacking in our system - fairness.
Jane Vernon on sat 25 oct 03
It takes a lot for me to write to Clayart! I've subscribed for years
but rarely post. Most of the time I don't feel I have anything to add
to the expert advice others have to offer. However .......
In message , Burness Speakman writes
>>>>>"My work doesn't(yet) support my family, and barely pays for itself."
>
>My pottery is our only source of income so it cannot be construed as a
>hobby. When I see someone who has a hubby that is bringing in the money
>that allows the family to have insurance coverage of any sort, pays the
>bills, drives a car newer than 1980, has store bought cloths, buys at
>walmart, can afford to go on vacations or even a movie, I do call that a
>hobby, in drag.
This isn't the only way to look at it. Perhaps it is only the income
from the potter that allows the family to afford these things.
>Most peoples definition of "business" is only an extension
>of what the law says it is, not what it really is. The same with a hobby.
>The meanings of these words are basically legal terms used for tax purposes
>in order to give a performance under the law.
>
>Some of you may have competition, but I don't. Just a fact. Nobody has what
>I have because I make that so.
It sounds as if you think no competition a good thing. I can't see it
that way. I live in a medium-sized rural town in the UK and we have a
shop for local makers of any kind of product. There are about 7 potters
in the shop. I also attend a farmers market regularly and there are
three potters who do this. Undoubtedly some of us make more money than
others but we all survive and sometimes think this is a miracle.
However, there is another side to it: all of us know each other's work
and will refer customers to potters who make what the customer is really
looking for if we don't make it ourselves. By being a constant and
numerous presence I think we raise the profile of hand-thrown pottery in
the public awareness. People begin to think of it as a generally
available product rather than something rather quaint.
The general experience of selling in this country seems to be that craft
fairs and one-off events are declining in popularity and people are
finding it increasingly hard to make money at these events. On the
other hand, regular (weekly, fortnightly or monthly) craft events or
shops, where customers know they can always find good quality products,
are still doing reasonably well. This, for me, is another indication
that the profile of "craft" items is being raised closer to other
products.
The tone of your posts suggests that you don't value other people's
work, efforts and lifestyle if they are not making their entire living
from pottery in the way that you are. You are missing so much if you
live your working life this way. I work in clay and cloth (hence the
domain name!) and do some teaching (not art) up to two days per week to
supplement my income. I have friends who work as full-time potters and
make a living, some who work as full-time potters with partners who
work, some who work as full-time artist/makers who barely make a living.
We get on well, are supportive of one another, are not bitter about the
person who has more than ourselves nor guilty towards the person who has
less. It's just not an issue. It's a great way to live. By the way,
the shop I mentioned runs as a co-operative. It's still going three
years later, within a generally declining retail market. That must tell
you something.
--
Jane
http://www.clothandclay.co.uk
Burness Speakman on sat 25 oct 03
"Bunny, If you cannot afford any of the things listed below and you say you
have no competition, then you must not be doing very well."
Do you happen to know what a third world country is? It is a country whose
monetary system is backed by gold and silver not credit and paper.
Insurance is nothing more than passing the buck to an entity to accept the
resposibility of injury and to pay the bills one cannot afford to pay. If
that is "scary" to you that is because it the "rug" that can be pulled out
from under your feet. God forbid one would have to be liable and held
responsible for ones own accidents or illnesses. Credit is nothing more
than passing the buck to an entity to purchase something one cannot afford
to buy outright. (Mortgages, clothing, cars, etc.) Electricity is a luxury
not a necessity. Water and food is a necessity not a luxury. Back to credit
and paper. I do not consider an illusion as doing well anymore than stark
dependency upon something that might not be there tomorrow. If you are
relying upon credit, medical insurance, etc. I find that not doing well.
I do not consider a cup and plate a luxury. I find them necessaries, I
prefer eating off of one than eating out of my hand. A sculpture certainly
is luxury.
If you have competition then you must be working your butt off to keep up
with them.
We live in two different America's. I prefer mine, it is more secure.
Bunny
Mert & Holly Kilpatrick on sat 25 oct 03
> We live in two different America's. I prefer mine, it is more secure.
>
> Bunny
Bunny,
You may have mentioned, but I have forgotten, whereabouts are you located?
Holly
East Bangor, PA
Snail Scott on sat 25 oct 03
Bunny wrote:
>>...When I see someone who has a hubby that is bringing in the money
>> that allows the family to have insurance coverage of any sort, pays the
>> bills, drives a car newer than 1980...I do call that a
>> hobby, in drag...
I used to be entirely self-supporting. I also lived
well below the 'poverty line', wore secondhand clothes,
drove a $500 car, had no insurance, etc. My choice. I
had the skills and smarts to get a better-paying job;
I just didn't want to.
Then I met a great guy. Still in college, doing grad
school in physics. We dated, then moved in together.
Neither of our places had room for two people, so we
got a bigger place together. I said, "If I'm going to
pay my half, we're going to have to get a place I can
afford half of, or else you're going to have to pick
up the extra." He could afford a little more, so I
paid about 1/3 of our combined expenses in the new
place. He wanted to go see movies together, and go
out to eat, so he paid for that. He graduated and got
a pretty good job. He wanted a house in a better
neighborhood, with a yard and central heat. He could
afford it, so he paid for it. When my old truck needed
a ring job (and an exhaust system, and a carburetor,
and a manifold, and, and, and...) he bought a new one.
I'm still earning about what I used to. Should I ask
him to live at my level, at a standard of living I
can afford half of? He likes cable TV - why shouldn't
he get it? He's earned the money to pay for it. And
once it's installed, should I never watch it, because
it's not 'mine'? His job gives insurance to both of
us, and I'm damn grateful. (It's not my income that
bought this computer, either. I could scarcely pay
the ISP charges on my own.)
I often feel guilty about not pulling my weight in
this relationship, economically speaking. (I still
wear secondhand clothes.) But that's MY head trip,
for me to deal with. You do not have the right to
set the terms of my lifestyle, nor to judge whether
my financially marginal career is a 'hobby'.
Does the fact that I have a standard of living that I
can't afford on my own give me any unfair advantage?
(That is what this is about, isn't it...resentment?)
Well, my work isn't subsidized. It's priced at what
the market will bear - why would I sell it cheaper?
But I do get to live on a comfy suburban house with
an insulated studio to work in, and eat steak pretty
often, and no longer make myself sick just worrying
about medical bills, and I exhibit further from home
because I know my new truck will get me there. Yeah,
it's nice. And I didn't earn it. But if you can tell
me the sense of turning it down, THEN I'll listen.
(Should I dump him and take up with a guy poorer
than I am, to regain my Artistic Integrity? Or what?)
-Snail
Earl Brunner on sat 25 oct 03
That's fine, just STAY in your world when you or yours get a
catastrophic illness; because if you go to the hospital and can't pay,
then you are passing the cost on to everyone else. The hospital will
recoup its cost by passing it on to those who DO pay. Insurance is like
a co-op, everyone in the "group" pays in, and a certain percentage gets
their expenses covered when they have them. They have and use
statistical tables to determine the risks and costs.
I repeat, when you get sick, stay in your world.
Which third world country do you know that is on a gold standard? I
don't know any.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Burness
Speakman
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 6:55 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: i don't wanna get a "real job"!
"Bunny, If you cannot afford any of the things listed below and you say
you
have no competition, then you must not be doing very well."
Do you happen to know what a third world country is? It is a country
whose
monetary system is backed by gold and silver not credit and paper.
Insurance is nothing more than passing the buck to an entity to accept
the
resposibility of injury and to pay the bills one cannot afford to pay.
If
that is "scary" to you that is because it the "rug" that can be pulled
out
from under your feet. God forbid one would have to be liable and held
responsible for ones own accidents or illnesses. Credit is nothing more
than passing the buck to an entity to purchase something one cannot
afford
to buy outright. (Mortgages, clothing, cars, etc.) Electricity is a
luxury
not a necessity. Water and food is a necessity not a luxury. Back to
credit
and paper. I do not consider an illusion as doing well anymore than
stark
dependency upon something that might not be there tomorrow. If you are
relying upon credit, medical insurance, etc. I find that not doing well.
I do not consider a cup and plate a luxury. I find them necessaries, I
prefer eating off of one than eating out of my hand. A sculpture
certainly
is luxury.
If you have competition then you must be working your butt off to keep
up
with them.
We live in two different America's. I prefer mine, it is more secure.
Bunny
________________________________________________________________________
______
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Norman van der Sluys on sat 25 oct 03
Don't be fooled by the terminology. Health "insurance" is not insurance
in the conventional sense, but rather prepayment.
Ours is the only developed
nation on this earth that believes it is right and proper to profit from
the injury and illness of others. A national health care system such as
in place north of our border ( or south of it if you live in Michign as
I do :<) ) would go a long way to ease the burden of those living in
poverty or close to it in this country. Please remember that 43 million
people in our nation who work for a living and are not on the dole are
denied access to our health care system. It is the reason our system
has been ranked as 23rd by the World Health Organization.
If you really believe that you are paying for those who cannot afford
health insurance, just inquire about the difference between what your
insurance provider pays and what would be charged to a patient without
insurance. As a nation, we pay nearly twice as much for health care as
any other nation on earth. The idea that we have the best health care
in the world is largely a myth. We may have the most advanced
technology, but our medical professionals are not nearly as skilled in
diagnosis as the physicians of 50 years ago. Without the technology
they would be lost.
I don't know what your health situation is, but that cost of $5000 a
month makes me believe that you are a lot more guilty of driving up the
cost of health care than is Bunny. I don't fault you for it, It is a
life circumstance you probably had no control over. Feel fortunate that
your circumstances permit you to pay only 3% of the cost. But don't
castigate Bunny for her inability to afford health insurance. She is
not to blame for that $5000/month health care cost.
It has been shown that a single payer system can cut costs enormously
just because of reduced administrative costs and greater bargaining
power. A universal health care system would also add something that is
sadly lacking in our system - fairness.
Earl Brunner wrote:
>
> That's fine, just STAY in your world when you or yours get a
> catastrophic illness; because if you go to the hospital and can't pay,
> then you are passing the cost on to everyone else. The hospital will
> recoup its cost by passing it on to those who DO pay. Insurance is like
> a co-op, everyone in the "group" pays in, and a certain percentage gets
> their expenses covered when they have them. They have and use
> statistical tables to determine the risks and costs.
>
> I repeat, when you get sick, stay in your world.
>
--
Norman van der Sluys
Benona Pottery
Near the shore of Lake Michigan, content in my world, and without
feelings of guilt that would cause me to lash out at others in trying
circumstances.
Lois Ruben Aronow on sat 25 oct 03
>I do not consider an illusion as doing well anymore than stark
>dependency upon something that might not be there tomorrow. If you are
>relying upon credit, medical insurance, etc. I find that not doing well.
How about relying on making a living wage? No one here is talking
about credit. Not all people with "jobs" are up to their ears in
credit card debt. Most aren't, as a matter of fact. You obviously
have a computer.......
>We live in two different America's. I prefer mine, it is more secure.
Yours is not more secure. Quite the opposite. If you face
homelessness, a catastrophic illness (or even a broken arm, which will
put you out of work as a potter), or wish to send your children to
school, it will be the tax dollars of others - those WITH jobs, who
pay taxes, who will be supporting you. Even the electric company -
and the phone company, for that matter - will provide the impoverished
with basic services in an emergency. =20
I agree - credit is not a necessity. Television is not a necessity.
But indoor plumbing, electricity, food, shelter and the ability to
care for oneself are. It is extremely biased of you to think everyone
with a "real" job, or even so much as a credit card, is wearing Prada
and driving Hummers. =20
While I consider myself a bleeding heart liberal, I also believe
people should learn - and be able to - help themselves, and not rely
on the backs of others.
America is not a third world country. How dare you compare it to one.
People come here all the time with just the clothes on their backs in
search of opportunity. Plenty of people on this list, and around the
world, support, house and educate their families on artist's wages.
They should be proud. =20
Off my soapbox.......Lo
(who no longer considers electricity a necessity, now that she knows
she can fire Fimo in the oven).
************
Lois Ruben Aronow
www.loisaronow.com
Modern Porcelain and Tableware
The Tattoo is back!
Lois Ruben Aronow on sun 26 oct 03
>Don't be fooled by the terminology. Health "insurance" is not insurance
>in the conventional sense, but rather prepayment.
> Ours is the only developed
>nation on this earth that believes it is right and proper to profit from
>the injury and illness of others. A national health care system such as
>in place north of our border ( or south of it if you live in Michign as
>I do :<) ) would go a long way to ease the burden of those living in
>poverty or close to it in this country.=20
Yes, I believe wholeheartedly that the US health care system sucks big
time. In the US we have Medicaid, which, while not perfect, is still
a security blanket to those in need. In some instances, it is the
ONLY way to be entitled to quality care, such as with cerebral palsy.
I know this one for a fact.=20
When I lived int he UK, I learned that health care was not "free" - it
was paid for in taxes, which were some of the highest in the world.
And this tax money was taken out of one's paycheck before it even got
into the employee's hands. And then there were the VAT taxes, - 17.5%
- which were built into prices of goods. =20
The same doctors who provided care to those on the NHS also provided
care to private patients, but those on the NHS had to wait weeks or
even months for an appointment, and were only allowed so much time and
care, whereas private patients got full care. =20
I'm sure Janet can is much better versed in the glories of the NHS
than I, and maybe i'm misguided on this one, but I found it shocking.
>It has been shown that a single payer system can cut costs enormously
>just because of reduced administrative costs and greater bargaining
>power. A universal health care system would also add something that is
>sadly lacking in our system - fairness.
I agree that there should be universal health care, and it should be
equal and accessible for all. But as long as there is a class system
it will never be fair. The doctors are as much to blame, as are
insurance companies who provide malpractice insurance (thus driving
many doctors out of practice) and sue-happy individuals who believe
medical injury is better than a winning lottery ticket. =20
Can we get back to the subject of clay please?
************
Lois Ruben Aronow
www.loisaronow.com
Modern Porcelain and Tableware
The Tattoo is back!
Burness Speakman on sun 26 oct 03
Thank you Norman van der Sluys. I am fully aware of what you say as being
the truth. Unfortunately there are those who are ignorant of how "things"
operate in this country. My choices have been made because I do not consent
to suck off the national teat unlike those who have belief systems that are
different than mine. I do not want medical insurance for the reasons you
mention. I live a simple life without all the headaches most have. My needs
and wants are fulfilled.
If Earl Brunner thinks I will have everyone pay for a catestrophic illness,
perhaps I should. I might get a great deal of pleasure out of thinking
people like him would have the burdon of actually caring for someone,
anyone. However, as far as health goes, I am my own physician. I have
studied and used wild herbal medicines for over 20 years and have not had a
cold, a sore throat, flu, or ingrown toenail, for as long as I can
remember. I try very hard to emulate and live the writings of the French
writer of 1848, Frederick Bastiat with a lot of Native American thrown in,
even tho I am not Indian. I have the life people write books and movies on
but do not have the intestinal fortitude to do.
I don't consider myself poverty stricken. I consider myself extremely
wealthy. I have everything I need and get everything I want because there
is nothing I unable to do.
Hank Murrow on sun 26 oct 03
Dear Lee;
I wonder if the tiny budget for 'national defense' has anything to do
with the perceived largesse?
Hank in Eugene
On Sunday, October 26, 2003, at 07:12 AM, Lee Love wrote:
> At 10:23 2003/10/26, you wrote:
>> I know I should not get involved in this and will probaly get
>> "flamed" but I
>> find it easier in our "socialist" state of Canada.
>
>
> Better here in Japan too. Somehow, our taxes are much lower than
> in the USofA, but we have national health care.
Linda Christen on sun 26 oct 03
We are the only developed country in the world with out universal health
care. National Defense spending has nothing to do with it; it is the
choice of our leaders for us not to have it. Insurance companies have
very high priced lobbyists.
-------------------------------------------------
I wonder if the tiny budget for 'national defense' has anything to do
with the perceived largesse?
Hank in Eugene
> At 10:23 2003/10/26, you wrote:
>> I know I should not get involved in this and will probaly get
>> "flamed" but I
>> find it easier in our "socialist" state of Canada.
>
>
> Better here in Japan too. Somehow, our taxes are much lower than
> in the USofA, but we have national health care.
LindaBlossom on sun 26 oct 03
This was really well put. Bunny's jealousy and then statement that she is
so wealthy reeks of passive agressive behavior.
Linda
Ithaca, NY
----- Original Message -----
From: "Snail Scott"
To:
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: i don't wanna get a "real job"!
> Bunny wrote:
> >>...When I see someone who has a hubby that is bringing in the money
> >> that allows the family to have insurance coverage of any sort, pays the
> >> bills, drives a car newer than 1980...I do call that a
> >> hobby, in drag...
>
>
> I used to be entirely self-supporting. I also lived
> well below the 'poverty line', wore secondhand clothes,
> drove a $500 car, had no insurance, etc. My choice. I
> had the skills and smarts to get a better-paying job;
> I just didn't want to.
>
> Then I met a great guy. Still in college, doing grad
> school in physics. We dated, then moved in together.
> Neither of our places had room for two people, so we
> got a bigger place together. I said, "If I'm going to
> pay my half, we're going to have to get a place I can
> afford half of, or else you're going to have to pick
> up the extra." He could afford a little more, so I
> paid about 1/3 of our combined expenses in the new
> place. He wanted to go see movies together, and go
> out to eat, so he paid for that. He graduated and got
> a pretty good job. He wanted a house in a better
> neighborhood, with a yard and central heat. He could
> afford it, so he paid for it. When my old truck needed
> a ring job (and an exhaust system, and a carburetor,
> and a manifold, and, and, and...) he bought a new one.
>
> I'm still earning about what I used to. Should I ask
> him to live at my level, at a standard of living I
> can afford half of? He likes cable TV - why shouldn't
> he get it? He's earned the money to pay for it. And
> once it's installed, should I never watch it, because
> it's not 'mine'? His job gives insurance to both of
> us, and I'm damn grateful. (It's not my income that
> bought this computer, either. I could scarcely pay
> the ISP charges on my own.)
>
> I often feel guilty about not pulling my weight in
> this relationship, economically speaking. (I still
> wear secondhand clothes.) But that's MY head trip,
> for me to deal with. You do not have the right to
> set the terms of my lifestyle, nor to judge whether
> my financially marginal career is a 'hobby'.
>
> Does the fact that I have a standard of living that I
> can't afford on my own give me any unfair advantage?
> (That is what this is about, isn't it...resentment?)
> Well, my work isn't subsidized. It's priced at what
> the market will bear - why would I sell it cheaper?
> But I do get to live on a comfy suburban house with
> an insulated studio to work in, and eat steak pretty
> often, and no longer make myself sick just worrying
> about medical bills, and I exhibit further from home
> because I know my new truck will get me there. Yeah,
> it's nice. And I didn't earn it. But if you can tell
> me the sense of turning it down, THEN I'll listen.
>
> (Should I dump him and take up with a guy poorer
> than I am, to regain my Artistic Integrity? Or what?)
>
> -Snail
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Les on sun 26 oct 03
Hi Hank -
I don't remember us looking for a place to go to war. We only have
35million people so we don't need a huge army.
Canada is still the largest supplier of "peace-keepers" in the world as
well.
Cheers,
Les.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hank Murrow"
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: i don't wanna get a "real job"!
> Dear Lee;
>
> I wonder if the tiny budget for 'national defense' has anything to do
> with the perceived largesse?
>
> Hank in Eugene
>
> On Sunday, October 26, 2003, at 07:12 AM, Lee Love wrote:
>
> > At 10:23 2003/10/26, you wrote:
> >> I know I should not get involved in this and will probaly get
> >> "flamed" but I
> >> find it easier in our "socialist" state of Canada.
> >
> >
> > Better here in Japan too. Somehow, our taxes are much lower than
> > in the USofA, but we have national health care.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Russel Fouts on mon 27 oct 03
Lois.
>> I agree that there should be universal health care, and it should be
equal and accessible for all. But as long as there is a class system it
will never be fair. The doctors are as much to blame, as are
insurance companies who provide malpractice insurance (thus driving many
doctors out of practice) and sue-happy individuals who believe medical
injury is better than a winning lottery ticket. <<
I wasn't going to comment further after my last post but I feel I need to
clarify. There are other models for "Universal" Health Care than Britain's
NHS. In Belgium it's all done through the"Mutualite" everyone has to belong
to one but you can choose any one you like (mine used to be the "Friendly
Circle of Tramwaymen" until it merged with the greater "Transportation and
Communications Mutualite". Dues are paid to the Mutualite by your company
(larger part) and by you (much smaller part. Mine is about $13 a quarter).
If you're an "Independant" you pay both shares but it's not outragous. I
think if you are not working, it's paid fully by the Gov. You can go to any
doctor you want, no long waits for appointments. If you go to the hospital,
they pay and you pay a small part. Last time I was in for a week and 1/2 in
a semi-private room, great care, I paid $20, the mutualite paid the rest.
It's a good model and it WORKS and Belgium has some of the best medical
care in the world.
>> Can we get back to the subject of clay please? <<
PLEASE! Although it would be very interesting to further discuss Jonathan
Kirkendal's studio fashion sense. ;-)
Russel
Russel Fouts
Mes Potes & Mes Pots
Brussels, Belgium
Tel: +32 2 223 02 75
Mobile: +32 476 55 38 75
Http://www.mypots.com
Home of "The Potters Portal"
Over 2300 Pottery Related Links!
Updated frequently
My work can also be seen on:
The World Crafts Council International Site: http://www.wccwis.gr
The World Crafts Council Belgium Site: http://wcc-bf.org (English Pages)
EasyCraft: http://www.easycraft.org
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only
unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American
public." --U.S. President (and Nobel Peace Prize winner) Theodore
Roosevelt.
Lois Ruben Aronow on mon 27 oct 03
>It's a good model and it WORKS and Belgium has some of the best medical
>care in the world.
I used the UK model, as that has been my experience, and seems to be
what most people think of then they consider universal health care.
My limited experience with Belgium has been the food and the
chocolate..... ;-). Glad to know you're being well provided for!
My husband would surely like to live there someday, and spends plenty
of time there on business.
>> Can we get back to the subject of clay please? <<
>
>PLEASE! Although it would be very interesting to further discuss =
Jonathan
>Kirkendal's studio fashion sense. ;-)
>
=46ashion sense?! I missed that one! I'd be interested to know what
other potters wear in the studio. I usually wear the same jeans every
day (why get a new pair dirty?), a high compression sports bra, and a
t shirt. What does Jonathan Kirkendal wear? I certainly want to be
in with the in-crowd on this one!
************
Lois Ruben Aronow
www.loisaronow.com
Modern Porcelain and Tableware
The Tattoo is back!
Lee Love on mon 27 oct 03
At 10:23 2003/10/26, you wrote:
>I know I should not get involved in this and will probaly get "flamed" but I
>find it easier in our "socialist" state of Canada.
Better here in Japan too. Somehow, our taxes are much lower than in the USofA, but we have national health care.
Russel Fouts on wed 29 oct 03
Lois,
>> I used the UK model, as that has been my experience, and seems to be
what most people think of then they consider universal health care. My
limited experience with Belgium has been the food and the
chocolate..... ;-). <<
I was just offering it up as model that works. When people say that
Universl Healthcare won't work, they point to the NHS as an example. There
are LOTS of places where it does work.
>> Glad to know you're being well provided for! My husband would surely
like to live there someday, and spends plenty of time there on business. <<
So why hasn't he stopped by?
BTW we have meet emigrant Clayarter Ruth Ballou. She's really busy getting
settled in but we've been able to meet a couple of times. We're going to
the Farnham Maltings Ceramic show near london in Nov together.
>> Jonathan's 6ashion sense?! I missed that one! I'd be interested to
know what other potters wear in the studio. I usually wear the same jeans
every day (why get a new pair dirty?), a high compression sports bra, and a
t shirt. What does Jonathan Kirkendal wear? I certainly want to be in
with the in-crowd on this one! <<
I think when Burness referred to potters with a spouse making a second
income as businesses, potters or hobbies (I can't remember) in "drag" it
set Jonathan and some others of us off on a tangent. ;-)
Ru (High compression bra sounds uncomfortable ;-)
Russel Fouts
Mes Potes & Mes Pots
Brussels, Belgium
Tel: +32 2 223 02 75
Mobile: +32 476 55 38 75
Http://www.mypots.com
Home of "The Potters Portal"
Over 2300 Pottery Related Links!
Updated frequently
My work can also be seen on:
The World Crafts Council International Site: http://www.wccwis.gr
The World Crafts Council Belgium Site: http://wcc-bf.org (English Pages)
EasyCraft: http://www.easycraft.org
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only
unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American
public." --U.S. President (and Nobel Peace Prize winner) Theodore
Roosevelt.
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