Sam or Mary Yancy on thu 30 oct 03
Vince or ? My Question. I usually fire to low fire and cone 5. I glaze inside the foot rimg on low-fire but not on cone 5 (or higher cone pieces). Can you glaze INSIDE the foot ring in cone 5 (or higher)? I have never done this yet (not allowed to at school) - because I was told that glaze would run and would stick the piece to the shelf. ??? Comments appreciated.Sam in Daly City CA.
Vince Pitelka wrote:It seems to me that one of the primary reasons for trimming a foot on
plates and platters is so that you CAN glaze inside the footring. It does
create a wonderful bottom finish.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
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Vince Pitelka on fri 31 oct 03
> You can glaze the inside of a high-fire footring. It tends
> to be prohibited in schools because doing it properly
> requires knowing how runny your glaze is, how to apply it
> at a consistent thickness to avoid surprises, how much
> margin you need to allow when you wax or wipe the foot,
> AND how to throw a plate that won't sag down to the shelf
> during firing. In short, it requires a little experience.
Snail -
With all due respect to your considerably informed opinions, what the heck
are schools for but to gain experience? What kind of program would forbid
glazing inside foot rings to save themselves a little trouble. The mere
thought is abhorrent, but I fear probably true. Too many teachers are not
willing to do the labor, and do not have the tech support to assist them.
Glazing inside footrings is one option. I like it, but I am not going to
imply that it is some sort of universal truth. I have always enjoyed using
Michael McDowell's plates when I teach workshops up there, and they have no
footring. There are no rules, no absolutes in ceramics. Every implied rule
is made to be broken. Applying rules and parameters to art/craft limits
what it can be, and that is never appropriate.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Snail Scott on fri 31 oct 03
At 08:35 AM 10/30/03 -0800, you wrote:
>Can you glaze INSIDE the foot ring in cone 5 (or higher)? I have never
done this yet (not allowed to at school) - because I was told that glaze
would run and would stick the piece to the shelf...
You can glaze the inside of a high-fire footring. It tends
to be prohibited in schools because doing it properly
requires knowing how runny your glaze is, how to apply it
at a consistent thickness to avoid surprises, how much
margin you need to allow when you wax or wipe the foot,
AND how to throw a plate that won't sag down to the shelf
during firing. In short, it requires a little experience.
Or a willingness to grind your mistakes. Both tend to be
scarce in schools, and rules derived from past problems
get applied to everyone equally. But, if you're now an
experienced free agent who knows the properties of your
materials, (or is willing to accept the responsibility,)
go for it.
-Snail
Susan Setley on sat 1 nov 03
In a message dated 11/1/03 7:35:13 PM, john@FROGPONDPOTTERY.COM writes:
<< I suppose heavy handed restrictions can be stifling, but handled well I
think they encourage students to be more creative--in any field. I
would think many, maybe most, assignments should be restricted in some
way so students don't take the obvious answer--force them to think out
of the box.
Regards,
John >>
I agree with you, John. My daughter is an art major, and in her first
sculpture class, one of her assignments was to make a bust of herself -- out of
cardboard. It was fascinating to see how many ways the students found to do it, and
they *all* learned about working well within restrictions as they looked at
the varied ways they all found to accomplish the task.
Because we were told not to glaze the bottom when I first started, I started
using oxide stains early. That was a good thing. It alerted me to the many
ways clay can be decorated from my very first class.
Earl Krueger on sat 1 nov 03
If I may add to Snail's excellent post.
I never did too well in school. Too many
'cause GOD said so' rules.
I did worse in the military.
A rule I could live with: "If you want to
glaze inside the foot ring you MUST use
a clay cookie under the pot in the kiln."
Dogma I could not live with: "You may
not glaze inside the foot ring (period)."
I would hope that the Teachers on this
forum are teachers and use rules that
teach.
Earl...
Bothell, WA, USA
Susan Setley on sat 1 nov 03
In a message dated 10/31/03 11:30:02 PM, vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET writes:
<<
Snail -
With all due respect to your considerably informed opinions, what the heck
are schools for but to gain experience? >>
Speaking as a retired teacher... :)
Schools are to LEARN. If the lesson is learned by the student but the price
paid by the teacher, the teacher will next time look for a way to teach that
lesson without having, him or herself, to pay a price. A pot stuck to a shelf is
a big mess to clean up, and there are more productive ways for a teacher to
spend his or extra time given to the job.
If the teacher chooses to emphasize other things and has the simple rule to
not glaze the bottom -- that's the teacher's right.
"Too many teachers are not
willing to do the labor, and do not have the tech support to assist them."
TECH SUPPORT? Teachers don't get no steenkin' tech support! :) If the
shelves are crudded up, the teacher uncruds them. Then a smart teacher looks for a
way to avoid that in the future. Remember we were talking high school, not
college.
But let's not characterize teachers as lazy in any way for making such
choices. As you said, "There are no rules, no absolutes in ceramics. Every implied
rule
is made to be broken. "
but you also said this, and I do take issue with it: :)
"Applying rules and parameters to art/craft limits what it can be, and that
is never appropriate."
I am not yet a highly skilled potter. At my age, I may not live long enough
to get there, but I am a highly skilled and trained musician.
Arguably some of the most beautiful music in the world -- that written by
Mozart, Bach, and to a lesser extent Beethoven and Brahms just to name a few --
was written during a time when markedly rigid rules were in place about how
music could and could not be written. Parallel fourths, fifths and octaves (where
two major voices move in the same direction that far apart -- even ONCE) was
a complete no-no.
While other composers, notably Copeland and Stravinsky, went on to smash that
rule with great glee and to great effect -- somehow those earlier musicians
managed to write awe-inspiring music while working within rules far stricter
than "don't glaze inside the foot ring."
Personally I like a significant foot ring even on small pieces -- except when
I don't, of course... :) -- and I glaze inside my foot rings.
But what does that mean? I'm still an amateur by any rational standard,
someone with a great deal to learn... and when I took my first classes, we were
told not to glaze inside the foot ring too, out of courtesy to the studio
manager, who couldn't make paying customers clean the kiln shelves if they blew it.
I judge a teacher by what he or she can get out of students with average
ability. That's the challenge in teaching. If, as part of that person's dedication
to staying focused on important things and protecting his or extra, donated
time to the job, he or she makes a rule that saves them a lot of work -- I'm
not going to second-guess them.
Snail Scott on sat 1 nov 03
At 08:05 PM 10/31/03 -0600, Vince wrote:
>Snail-
>...what the heck
>are schools for but to gain experience? What kind of program would forbid
>glazing inside foot rings to save themselves a little trouble...
Vince-
I never claimed to be advocating that position;
just pointing out that school rules do not
correspond to 'real life' for a number of reasons.
For instance, it's possible to fire solid clay
objects of substantial thickness, but it's not
something typically permitted in schools, either.
Other practices that often get prohibited are
double-dipping, clay brought from elsewhere,
stilted stoneware, etc.
I have some sympathy for both positions. It's a
shame to restrict student endeavors in any way,
but I can see that restricting a few practices
that consistently result in extra labor, damage
to other students' work or damaged equipment
could be very tempting, especially after a multi-
hour shelf-grinding session. And plates that get
stuck because of center slumping often tend to be
REALLY stuck - much harder to get loose than an
outside-surface glaze drip if the kiln wash was
skimpy.
If you run your program in a way that permits
any student experiment, I applaud your efforts.
(And your willingness to cope with occasional
inevitable disasters.) But I can't really
condemn teachers who set restrictions, either.
Many are staying late to fire kilns on their
own time, and aren't adequately supported for
their efforts even during the nominal workday.
If banning practices that frequently result in
extra work allows that teacher to spend more
time actually teaching and making improvements,
maybe it's not the worst thing in the world.
The point where is becomes a shame is when
students fail to understand the distinction
between an administrative rule and a 'rule' of
the craft: the difference between "you may not"
and "you can not".
'Rules' of the craft, in the early stages of
teaching are often presented as absolute truth,
but exist mainly as in substitute for a basic
understanding that the student is still lacking.
'Rules' like 'You have to wipe bisqueware' or
'You have to score and slip your attachments'
get made to let students make successful work
while their understanding is incomplete. Later,
they learn WHY the 'rule' existed, and what
underlying principle it was representing, and
why it's not really a 'rule' at all. It's just
the codification of a physical property that
can be applied, or not, as the knowledgeable
maker deems appropriate.
Administrative rules exist to keep the facility
functioning smoothly and fairly. Some of those
rules are self-evidently just shop policy, like
'Clean your work area'. Others are clearly
intended to preserve the facility and equipment,
like 'Don't scrape the wedging table with a
metal rib'. Others are somewhere in the middle,
governing the way that work is made and sounding
like 'rules of the craft', like 'Don't glaze the
inside of footrings'. It's the responsibility
of a good teacher to tell students that these
rules are in fact administrative rules, NOT
rules of the craft.
-Snail
Michael Wendt on sat 1 nov 03
One reason I make the solid bottom (some call the studio foot) which must be
left bare is it cannot be made by slip casting. I point out to anyone who
cares that slip cast wares follow the mold in every detail both inside the
piece and outside, so there are no cast items that won't show the studio
foot shape on the inside too. In contrast, a slim rim foot often casts with
almost no perceptible evidence on the inside, thus making it easier for a
person to pass off cast wares as hand made.
Nothing wrong with cast wares. We cast some items and always tell people
they are cast. We explain how made the molds from wheel thrown or hand built
originals so they make an informed choice. Most people don't care. Those who
do buy what they like.
Regards
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave
Lewiston, ID 83501
wendtpot@lewiston.com
wendtpottery.com
Vince Pitelka on sat 1 nov 03
> Schools are to LEARN. If the lesson is learned by the student but the
price
> paid by the teacher, the teacher will next time look for a way to teach
that
> lesson without having, him or herself, to pay a price. A pot stuck to a
shelf is
> a big mess to clean up, and there are more productive ways for a teacher
to
> spend his or extra time given to the job.
> If the teacher chooses to emphasize other things and has the simple rule
to
> not glaze the bottom -- that's the teacher's right.
First, please sign a name to your posts, so we know who we are communicating
with.
Second, sorry but your comment above does not wash. As a long-time teacher,
I am certainly not advocating anything that will make more work for the
teacher. I am talking about the teacher simply doing her/his job,
maximizing the opportunities for the students. A blanket rule that the
underside of trimmed forms will not be glazed is ridiculous, and there is no
place for such unreasonable rules in a ceramics program at any level. You
don't want glaze on the kiln shelves? So teach students how to trim proper
foot rings, and use proper kiln wash.
At the Craft Center we occasionally still have a plate that sags onto the
shelf, and when removed from the kiln it just lifts off a layer of kiln
wash. The student has a big circle of kiln wash on the bottom of their
plate, and they learn a valuable lesson.
They are responsible for rewashing that shelf, so it makes no more work for
the teacher.
You are right, shcools are to learn, so let's get rid of silly rules that
interfere with learning.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Susan Setley on sat 1 nov 03
In a message dated 11/1/03 6:42:16 PM, vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET writes:
<< > Schools are to LEARN. If the lesson is learned by the student but the
price
> paid by the teacher, the teacher will next time look for a way to teach
that
> lesson without having, him or herself, to pay a price. A pot stuck to a
shelf is
> a big mess to clean up, and there are more productive ways for a teacher
to
> spend his or extra time given to the job.
> If the teacher chooses to emphasize other things and has the simple rule
to
> not glaze the bottom -- that's the teacher's right.
Second, sorry but your comment above does not wash. >>
I think you edited my post unfairly. I think I made a credible point. We'll
have to agree to disagree.
John Hesselberth on sat 1 nov 03
On Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 11:30 AM, Snail Scott wrote:
> It's a
> shame to restrict student endeavors in any way,
I don't agree with this. Restrictions can stimulate creativity. Susan
just gave excellent examples in the field of music. For 30 years I
solved and watched others solve engineering problems. We were often
working under very severe restrictions. For example $MM of hardware
already bought that had to be put to work, environmental, building
codes and on and on--if anything that stimulated creativity. You had to
be more creative to solve the problem with all the restrictions you had
to follow.
I suppose heavy handed restrictions can be stifling, but handled well I
think they encourage students to be more creative--in any field. I
would think many, maybe most, assignments should be restricted in some
way so students don't take the obvious answer--force them to think out
of the box.
Regards,
John
http://www.frogpondpottery.com
http://www.masteringglazes.com
Susan Setley on sun 2 nov 03
In a message dated 11/2/03 4:51:55 AM, erkrueger@EARTHLINK.NET writes:
<< If I may add to Snail's excellent post.
I never did too well in school. Too many
'cause GOD said so' rules.
I did worse in the military.
A rule I could live with: "If you want to
glaze inside the foot ring you MUST use
a clay cookie under the pot in the kiln."
Dogma I could not live with: "You may
not glaze inside the foot ring (period)."
I would hope that the Teachers on this
forum are teachers and use rules that
teach. >>
I've never had any rules about pottery presented to me as "dogma" by any
instructor. We were just told not to glaze the underside to start with until we
were familiar with the glazes and what they did. And, we were given an
alternative that I wouldn't have learned for some time without it -- oxides.
OK I have to back up. I did take one class somewhere else run by by a dogma
master. There was only one way to wedge; there was only one way to pull; etc.
We started wtih wedging, and we had to cone up and down -- for an hour.
Unfortunately the clay was reclaimed -- and reclamed badly -- it was much too dry.
But I was a relative beginner and didn't realize.
In that one hour I got a repetitive stress injury in my elbow. Now that I
think about it, he really WAS rigid, and I did what apparently you would have
done -- I walked out and didn't go back. I know now it was bad teaching. I didn't
know then. Turns out the guy didn't really know what he was doing. He kept
saying to use more force. A better teacher taught me how to center without
acting like Jack LaLane -- and how to rehydrate clay that is too dry. :)
I am just astounded at the reaction here to one instruction to not glaze
bottoms. I have to think that there's a subtext going on that isn't being stated,
such as resistence to authority, especially rules without justification.
I have the same attitude, actually. But I know that one or two rules do not
blunt creativity. We also were told not to leave bottoms three inches thick.
There is probably a place for that too, but not in the hands of beginners who
could easily build exploding pots. :)
Vince Pitelka on sun 2 nov 03
> I suppose heavy handed restrictions can be stifling, but handled well I
> think they encourage students to be more creative--in any field. I
> would think many, maybe most, assignments should be restricted in some
> way so students don't take the obvious answer--force them to think out
> of the box.
John -
You make a very good point. I wasn't thinking of it in those terms. Yes,
of course any assigment has to have parameters in order to get students to
deal with particular issues. But that is a different issue entirely as
compared to a blanket rule that the inside of the footring will never be
glazed. To me, a rule like that allows students to get away with making
sloppy footrings, instead of teaching them how to make proper plates with
proper footrings so that they do not slump onto the kiln shelf.
I have known plenty of K-12 ceramics teachers, some are my former students.
With the number of students they have to deal with every day, and with no
technical assistance, I know it is necessary to have strict policies just to
keep things running fairly smoothly. But some blanket rules don't seem
productive to me. Some are necessary, such as "Double dipping only on the
upper third of the pot." We all know it is possible to double dip a glaze
overall, if the glaze is the right consistency, and the glazer's technique
is good. But in a K-12 educational situation it would be out of the
question.
I don't really think there is a disagreement here. A K-12 ceramics shop
must be very tightly controlled. Strict rules are necessary. But "no glaze
inside the footring" just doesn't make much sense.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
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