Susan Setley on sat 1 nov 03
In a message dated 11/1/03 5:22:21 PM, Lee@MASHIKO.ORG writes:
<<
"Americans are more polite than Japanese. If you hold the door open
for an American, they smile at you and thank you. They don't cut in front
of you in line at the store and will even motion with their arm to have you
move forward if you aren't exactly in line."
Folks back home might be surprised by this, especially if they have
visited Japan, because visitors usually get "the royal treatment." >>
Not me. My niece lived there for two years, teaching English. She experienced
many instances of open rudeness. She had good reason to believe it was
because she was American -- anger left over from the end of WWII.
Christy Pines on sat 1 nov 03
On any given beautiful day in New York City, you will see people romping, happy, friendly, "nice" in Central Park or really in many other places in NYC. You might have the same impression of the people of New YorK that you had of those in Kitchener, ON. I personally think NYC is one of the most wonderful places in the world, but then I grew up there, spent plenty of time there as an adult. Since most of the rest of the world does not see NY as I do, I try to remember that my experience of a place (and particularly that place) has much to do with the way I approach it - as a visitor, as a resident, as a resident with means to make it a happy place, as an outsider who only hears what the media decides to tell me - all these make a huge difference.
Not trying to start an argument, just trying to point out that to say "americans" are one way is a hard position to take - too big a country, too many different types of people living too many different types of lives. I have a good friend who lives in Germany, who comes to the US every other year. He is always trying to pinpoint what "americans" are like. And I have to remind him that there is no way to make a statement that sums us all up. We are diverse, thank goodness, we are unique individuals, like the rest of the residents of the world, and we don't all think alike, as we witness every day on this list.
christy, in connecticut
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Ferguson
Sent: Nov 1, 2003 7:55 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Canadiana
Lee and others,
I visited Kitchener, Ontario a few years ago. I was with some friends and
said to them, "Look at all the families...happy, playing, relaxed, enjoying
the beautiful day." They were not stressed like my many of my fellow
Americans. We camped so we got a different view in and out of the city.
They too observed a slice of social utopia. I am not kidding about this.
They were different people then Americans and I was not in just toursity
areas. I was amazed at what a nice place, diverse cultures and the like and
what nice people were in Kitchener. There are nice and not so nice people
the world over. But I think Canada and probably New Zealand (from what I
hear from friends) are probably quite still unique. Oh, yeah, and Minnesota
too! 8-)
Thank you.
Susan Setley on sat 1 nov 03
In a message dated 11/1/03 8:50:17 PM, Lee@Mashiko.org writes:
<<
Sometimes, when we don't respect the local customs, folks get upset
with us. Americans visiting other countries can be like "Bulls in a China
store." :^)
>>
I do not think that fits my niece, who is a lovely and considerate person. I
trust her perceptions.
Donna Hoff-Grambau on sat 1 nov 03
>From a Michiganian, whose people had enough sense to elect a Canadian
born woman as governor, a statement from my son after a visit to
Gargantua, Lake Superior Provincal Park:
How come Canadians are so nice???
Donna Hoff-Grambau
"So, keep on keeping on living the life which your inner voice directs,
kindly, lovingly: giving help wherever you can, giving love and
sustenance to this great work of illuminating all life.... Your life is
like a pebble dropped into a pool of water, creating ripples endlessly.
You do not know the end of a word, a thought, an action." --White Eagle
Susan Setley on sat 1 nov 03
In a message dated 11/1/03 8:47:44 AM, grambau@CMSINTER.NET writes:
<< >From a Michiganian, whose people had enough sense to elect a Canadian
born woman as governor, a statement from my son after a visit to
Gargantua, Lake Superior Provincal Park:
How come Canadians are so nice???
Donna Hoff-Grambau
>>
Oh Lordy. We aren't going into a "Those Americans are so terrible, anyone
else is nicer" things, are we?
I would not even repeat in public what I heard some English-speaking
Canadians say about some French Canadians. People come in all varieties in all
countries... and I love Canada; have vacationed there multiple times.
But it's not perfect, and no country has a corner on "niceness."
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on sat 1 nov 03
Susan,
" I would not even repeat in public what I heard some English-speaking
Canadians say about some French Canadians."
We really dont give a damn anymore, over centuries we have become
used to this. We have our own state, it is a province but, we feel at home;
we passed laws in order to remain French , lots of anglos did not like that;
but it had to be done.
In 1910, the Pope send a British catholic bishop to try to convince us to
to become English, and believe me in those years the Pope was always right,
Henri Bourrassa, the founder of Le Devoir, a Montreal daily newspaper a
little bit nationalistic, decided to fight this papal initiative and we have
remained
french ever since.
So, passez une bonne journée,
"Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
Susan Setley on sat 1 nov 03
In a message dated 11/1/03 5:29:57 PM, edouardb@SOREL-TRACY.QC.CA writes:
<<
" I would not even repeat in public what I heard some English-speaking
Canadians say about some French Canadians."
We really dont give a damn anymore >>
Maybe you don't... but I did, and I was glad my children didn't hear it. :(
Tony Ferguson on sat 1 nov 03
Lee and others,
I visited Kitchener, Ontario a few years ago. I was with some friends and
said to them, "Look at all the families...happy, playing, relaxed, enjoying
the beautiful day." They were not stressed like my many of my fellow
Americans. We camped so we got a different view in and out of the city.
They too observed a slice of social utopia. I am not kidding about this.
They were different people then Americans and I was not in just toursity
areas. I was amazed at what a nice place, diverse cultures and the like and
what nice people were in Kitchener. There are nice and not so nice people
the world over. But I think Canada and probably New Zealand (from what I
hear from friends) are probably quite still unique. Oh, yeah, and Minnesota
too! 8-)
Thank you.
Tony Ferguson
On Lake Superior, where the sky meets the Lake
Custom & Manufactured Kiln Design
Stoneware, Porcelain, Raku and more
by Coleman, Ferguson, Winchester...
http://www.aquariusartgallery.com
218-727-6339
315 N. Lake Ave
Apt 312
Duluth, MN 55806
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Love"
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: Canadiana
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Susan Setley"
> > >>
> >
> > Oh Lordy. We aren't going into a "Those Americans are so terrible,
anyone
> > else is nicer" things, are we?
>
> It has been my experience, that they generally are "nicer."
>
> There is no need to say "Americans are so terrible" just
because
> Canadians are nicer. :^)
>
>
> Here is a story for you. My wife Jean interviewed a family who
> just came back to Japan after living in Ohio with her husband and 2 kids,
> while he worked there for Honda. Jean asked her if she was suffering
from
> culture shock. She said she was. Jean asked here what she noticed
that
> was different. She replied,
>
> "Americans are more polite than Japanese. If you hold the door open
> for an American, they smile at you and thank you. They don't cut in
front
> of you in line at the store and will even motion with their arm to have
you
> move forward if you aren't exactly in line."
>
> Folks back home might be surprised by this, especially if they
have
> visited Japan, because visitors usually get "the royal treatment."
>
> --
> Lee In Mashiko, Japan
> http://Mashiko.org
> Web Log (click on recent date):
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/calendar
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Lee Love on sun 2 nov 03
----- Original Message -----
From:
> Not me. My niece lived there for two years, teaching English. She
experienced
> many instances of open rudeness. She had good reason to believe it was
> because she was American -- anger left over from the end of WWII.
For the most part, westerners, especially Americans, are liked in Japan.
The young people your nices age (my age and younger) really don't think too
much about WWII.
Sometimes, when we don't respect the local customs, folks get upset
with us. Americans visiting other countries can be like "Bulls in a China
store." :^)
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://Mashiko.org
Web Log (click on recent date):
http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/calendar
Susan Setley on sun 2 nov 03
In a message dated 11/2/03 5:06:18 AM, cpines@IX.NETCOM.COM writes:
<<
Not trying to start an argument, just trying to point out that to say
"americans" are one way is a hard position to take - too big a country, too many
different types of people living too many different types of lives. I have a good
friend who lives in Germany, who comes to the US every other year. He is
always trying to pinpoint what "americans" are like. And I have to remind him that
there is no way to make a statement that sums us all up. We are diverse, thank
goodness, we are unique individuals, like the rest of the residents of the
world, and we don't all think alike, as we witness every day on this list. >>
I think you make a really good point. People who come from smaller countries
may expect to see a national culture, but just for example -- what is
"American" music? Aaron Copeland? Of course. "Starlight Express?" You bet! Elvis? Of
course? Bo Diddly?
We are a very new country. We can't trace our history for thousands of years
as the Greeks, Italians and Chinese can. We have people from many countries.
In the (very wealthy, although we were not) school district my children
attended, there were families from 86 different countries. So we have a short track
record of "being ourselves," and we're constantly bombarded with other
influences. Ain't it grand? :)
Lee Love on sun 2 nov 03
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donna Hoff-Grambau"
> a statement from my son after a visit to
> Gargantua, Lake Superior Provincal Park:
>
> How come Canadians are so nice???
>
Its easy to confuse them with Minnesotans. ;^)
Lee In Mashiko (where friends of mine in Minneapolis sent us a care package.
Sent me a black T-shirt with an image of a roll of duck tape on it and the
words, "When The Going Gets Tuff, The Tuff Use Duck Tape.") and also the
bumper sticker: "There is a Village in Texas Looking for its Idiot."
Lee Love on sun 2 nov 03
----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Setley"
> >>
>
> Oh Lordy. We aren't going into a "Those Americans are so terrible, anyone
> else is nicer" things, are we?
It has been my experience, that they generally are "nicer."
There is no need to say "Americans are so terrible" just because
Canadians are nicer. :^)
Here is a story for you. My wife Jean interviewed a family who
just came back to Japan after living in Ohio with her husband and 2 kids,
while he worked there for Honda. Jean asked her if she was suffering from
culture shock. She said she was. Jean asked here what she noticed that
was different. She replied,
"Americans are more polite than Japanese. If you hold the door open
for an American, they smile at you and thank you. They don't cut in front
of you in line at the store and will even motion with their arm to have you
move forward if you aren't exactly in line."
Folks back home might be surprised by this, especially if they have
visited Japan, because visitors usually get "the royal treatment."
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://Mashiko.org
Web Log (click on recent date):
http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/calendar
Earl Krueger on sun 2 nov 03
On Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 07:46 AM, Geoffrey Gaskell wrote:
> If I might be permitted the considerable license to compare people the
> world over not to a summers day, but rather to the internal combustion
> engine, I would simply add that one should always check under the
> bonnet.
I always make that attempt with the ladies; but not with the gents. ;-)
Earl...
Bothell, WA, USA
Lee Love on sun 2 nov 03
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Love"
> Lee In Mashiko (where friends of mine in Minneapolis sent us a care
package.
> Sent me a black T-shirt with an image of a roll of duck tape on it and the
> words, "When The Going Gets Tuff, The Tuff Use Duck Tape.") and also
the
> bumper sticker: "There is a Village in Texas Looking for its Idiot."
It's late. Please replace Duck with Duct. Those feathers would be
pretty messy!
Lee in Mashiko
Susan Setley on sun 2 nov 03
In a message dated 11/2/03 5:06:54 AM, Lee@MASHIKO.ORG writes:
<<
> Not me. My niece lived there for two years, teaching English. She
experienced
> many instances of open rudeness. She had good reason to believe it was
> because she was American -- anger left over from the end of WWII.
For the most part, westerners, especially Americans, are liked in Japan.
The young people your nices age (my age and younger) really don't think too
much about WWII. >>
They don't? My niece was acutely aware of the history -- and was reminded by
Japanese people on occasion.
" Sometimes, when we don't respect the local customs, folks get upset
with us. Americans visiting other countries can be like "Bulls in a China
store." :^)"
I don't know why this popped up twice, but you are NOT describing my niece
who is -- how old? :) Granted she doesn't remember WWII -- but neither do I.
That doesn't mean either of us are unaware of what happened. She's a very polite
person.
Susan Setley on sun 2 nov 03
In a message dated 11/2/03 7:39:56 PM, Lee@MASHIKO.ORG writes:
<< And with our culture being so dominant and so
invasive in the media and the culture we project abroad, people form
impressions about "what Americans are like." >>
If other people form opinions on us based on such superficial information,
that says something about the person who draws those conclusions.
Steve Slatin on sun 2 nov 03
Susan --
For much of the world, it's all -- or most -- of the information
available to them. I suspect human mind is hard-wired to assign things
(including people) to groups, and then to attribute characteristics to
those groups. Some people argue that "people are the same the whole
world over" and that culture is meaningless, but I wouldn't agree with
it.
Even in the west, our history informs our actions; the past lives with
us. When Edouard B. writes about the history of the Catholic Church in
promoting the English language amongst the Quebecois he's describing
something that has real meaning and context to his life today. This
history, this culture that he lives in has consequences for his beliefs
and actions. Cultures differ, they are real, and they have
consequences.
A good proportion of the world's population is advised of the state of
life in the U.S. by popular culture. They believe we live in mansions
in Dallas (or Santa Barbara), spend only a few minutes a day working but
hours scheming, and drive off in Corvette (or Mercedes) convertibles to
have frequent, casual sex with total strangers who look like something
out of a rap video.
People don't just sit down and watch one soap opera and then announce
that they understand the U.S., they are immersed in a stew of confusing
but mutually reinforcing images of the U.S. Their image of our lives is
developed slowly, and with vivid imagery. (Movies, TV, magazines, music,
etc.) Americans abroad can also be inimical to their own image. If the
first few Americans you meet are boorish, clumsy, overbearing folks who
try to buy their way into (and out of) everything, don't learn a word of
the local language, and act like the entire local culture exists for
their amusement, you'll probably find it hard to start out thinking well
of Americans. And it's easy to picture those folks fitting into the
popular-culture image of life in the U.S. Again, the erroneous image is
reinforced.
Regards -- Steve S.
Susan Setley posted --
If other people form opinions on us based on such superficial
information,
that says something about the person who draws those conclusions.
Geoffrey Gaskell on mon 3 nov 03
If I might be permitted the considerable license to compare people the world over not to a summers day, but rather to the internal combustion engine, I would simply add that one should always check under the bonnet.
--
Geoffrey Gaskell
http://www.homepages.paradise.net.nz/ggaskell/
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on mon 3 nov 03
Allo Steve,
" Even in the west, our history informs our actions; the past lives with
us. When Edouard B. writes about the history of the Catholic Church in
promoting the English language amongst the Quebecois he's describing
something that has real meaning and context to his life today. This
history, this culture that he lives in has consequences for his beliefs
and actions. Cultures differ, they are real, and they have
consequences."
RIGHT ON !!!
Later,
"Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
Lee Love on mon 3 nov 03
> In a message dated 11/2/03 5:06:18 AM, cpines@IX.NETCOM.COM writes:
> there is no way to make a statement that sums us all up. We are diverse,
thank
> goodness, we are unique individuals, like the rest of the residents of the
> world, and we don't all think alike, as we witness every day on this list.
>>
You could say this attitude about ourselves is something that marks us
as a people: Our stress on individuality and non-conformity. It is as
strong in us as the notion is to the Japanese, that Japanese are all alike,
but not like any other people in the world.
These attitudes, whether we like them or not, effect the way people
around the world view us. And with our culture being so dominant and so
invasive in the media and the culture we project abroad, people form
impressions about "what Americans are like." They do this without having
to travel to America. That's the reality of it.
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://Mashiko.org
Web Log (click on recent date):
http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/calendar
Lee Love on mon 3 nov 03
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoffrey Gaskell"
> If I might be permitted the considerable license to compare people the
world over not to
>a summers day, but rather to the internal combustion engine, I would simply
add that
>one should always check under the bonnet.
I was listening to a lecture by the Dalai Lama yesterday. He has a new
book out on ethics. His observations are that because of our notions of
progress and material gain, people have pretty much been reduced to the
function of "internal combustion engines." It makes happiness more
difficult (machines aren't supposed to be happy.)
You can hear lectures related to Tibetan philosophy on internet radio
at: http://lamrim.com
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://Mashiko.org
Web Log (click on recent date):
http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/calendar
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