Carole Fox on mon 3 nov 03
Now that the kids are back in school, I finally have some time on the
computer to thank you all for suggestions on finishing the surface of my new
work. I will definitely experiment with some washes. I have never worked
with them alone (no glaze) before and perhaps that is the earthy look I am
hoping for. Pit firing is too uncontrollable and risky for these pots.
Snail suggested using an engobe. I have never used them. Am I correct to
think that the look of an engobe is generally that of a matt glaze?
Engobe...I love saying that word!
Carole Fox
Elkton, MD
thesilverfox@dol.net
Snail Scott on mon 3 nov 03
At 08:28 AM 11/3/03 -0500, you wrote:
>Snail suggested using an engobe. I have never used them. Am I correct to
>think that the look of an engobe is generally that of a matt glaze?
'Engobe' is a general term for a wide range of
things, but depending on the amount of flux in
the recipe and the temperature it's fired to, an
engobe can resemble anything from a slip ('dry
engobe') to a matte glaze ('vitreous engobe'),
and most will allow a wide range of application
thicknesses compared to glaze. Some can resemble
an oxide wash if applied thinly, or a textured/
dimensional slip if applied thickly. Try different
recipes (or one base recipe with modifications
to the fluxes and colorants, etc) applied in a
variety of ways. Most engobes aren't fussy, and
allow for a range of effects. You can also use
dry engobes and overbrush them with a little
flux, to vary the gloss on a single piece.
-Snail
Susan Setley on mon 3 nov 03
In a message dated 11/3/03 12:21:55 PM, snail@MINDSPRING.COM writes:
<< At 08:28 AM 11/3/03 -0500, you wrote:
>Snail suggested using an engobe. I have never used them. Am I correct to
>think that the look of an engobe is generally that of a matt glaze?
'Engobe' is a general term for a wide range of
things, but depending on the amount of flux in
the recipe and the temperature it's fired to, an
engobe can resemble anything from a slip ('dry
engobe') to a matte glaze ('vitreous engobe'),
and most will allow a wide range of application
thicknesses compared to glaze. Some can resemble
an oxide wash if applied thinly, or a textured/
dimensional slip if applied thickly. Try different
recipes (or one base recipe with modifications
to the fluxes and colorants, etc) applied in a
variety of ways. Most engobes aren't fussy, and
allow for a range of effects. You can also use
dry engobes and overbrush them with a little
flux, to vary the gloss on a single piece.
-Snail
>>
I have never used engobes. My primary interest is Raku. Will putting a piece
into reduction affect engobes? Is there some way to judge ahead of time
whether this is likely? I know little chemistry about glazes but know that the
action of copper in the reduction can is particularly significant....
Any advice besides "experiment?" While that is excellent advice I work in a
public studio with limited access to the Raku kiln. My experiments need to be
focused and efficient. :)
Snail Scott on mon 3 nov 03
At 03:37 PM 11/3/03 EST, you wrote:
>I have never used engobes. My primary interest is Raku. Will putting a piece
>into reduction affect engobes? Is there some way to judge ahead of time
>whether this is likely? I know little chemistry about glazes but know that
the
>action of copper in the reduction can is particularly significant...
Basically, a dry engobe will act like a plain
slip or clay, i.e. it will turn black in the
smoking process if you do post-fire reduction.
Vitreous engobes will act more like glazes -
they'll resist the smoke. Engobes that are
somewhere in the middle may gray out with the
smoke - it'll depend on how vitrified they are.
If covered with a clear glaze, they'll act like
underglaze. (Underglazes are just one type of
engobe, after all.) You might try a partial
smoke effect, and let the colors show a bit.
It all depends on what recipe you use, though,
and how hot you fire.
-Snail
Susan Setley on mon 3 nov 03
In a message dated 11/3/03 5:25:55 PM, snail@MINDSPRING.COM writes:
<< Basically, a dry engobe will act like a plain
slip or clay, i.e. it will turn black in the
smoking process if you do post-fire reduction.
Vitreous engobes will act more like glazes -
they'll resist the smoke. Engobes that are
somewhere in the middle may gray out with the
smoke - it'll depend on how vitrified they are.
If covered with a clear glaze, they'll act like
underglaze. (Underglazes are just one type of
engobe, after all.) You might try a partial
smoke effect, and let the colors show a bit.
It all depends on what recipe you use, though,
and how hot you fire. >>
Well, if you have any suggestions, we typically fire to about 1830 (F).
Snail Scott on tue 4 nov 03
At 11:49 AM 11/4/03 EST, you wrote:
>I work in a shared space with limited access to the kiln. It's not that I'm
>opposed to systematic experimentation. it's that with my limited access it
>could take a year -- or more -- to sort out how to do it on my own...
Here's a way to start: Get hold of Chappell's
'Potter's Complete Book of Clay and Glaze".
(I pick it only because it's widely available
and ready to hand at this moment.) Chapter 15
is all engobes. Look for a recipe for your
stage of finish (leather-hard, green or bisque).
Pick one in a low-firing range (precision is
not critical).
Here's one for bisque, ^08-^1 (E-17):
5.5 kaolin
14.5 ball clay
19.0 calcined kaolin
16.0 frit 3134
15.0 talc
20.0 silica
5.0 tin oxide
5.0 borax
+ CMC
I've never tried this recipe; I've just picked
it totally at random, ONLY as an example. Any
recipe that meets the joint criteria of firing
range and application suitability will do.
So:
This is a white engobe, I can tell by the presence
of the tin in the recipe. If I want another color,
I'll leave out the tin and substitute oxides or
stains.
So, I'll probably figure that any engobe recipe
will probably be good for something, since they're
less fussy than glazes. I'll make up about 1000
grams (or thereabouts) _without_ the tin.
Now, I want to put as many tests as I can into one
firing, since (because I'm you for the moment) I
can't fire as often as I'd like, and I want my best
chance at a usable result.
So, I'll measure out 100 gram batches of my dry
mix into separate containers. Any leftovers that
don't come out even, I'll save for the 'plain'
test.
Into some of those containers, I'll add a few
oxides that may give me my desired color range.
(Suggested percentages may be found in most
standard texts, including Chappell.) I'll split
these batches in half, keeping one part 'straight'
and mixing the other halves together to try
combinations.
Into others, I might put a few stains in varying
concentrations from 5% to 20% depending on how
strong a color I want. I'll keep in mind that most
stains are refractory, so I'll split each high-
percentage color batch in half and add an extra 5
grams of 3134 to one of the halves of each color.
(Since the batches are split, that'll really be an
extra 10%.)
In other containers, I'll use the basic untinted
mix, but add varying amounts of added fluxes (the
borax and/or the 3134). In others, I'll add more
calcined kaolin, or texturing materials like
sand, according to my intentions.
Since I'll most likely be brushing the engobe on
my test pieces AND on my final projects, and
because precision is seldom critical with engobes,
these very small test batches work fine. This way,
I can do a dozen tests or more from the one basic
recipe, easily, and do it all in one firing.
I'd probably put the tests on a good-sized thrown
or slab cylinder with a texture comparable to the
actual projects I hope to use it on. I'll apply
each mix thinly as a wash, and thickly, too. I'd
label each area of my test with a code number
using a little iron oxide or underglaze or such,
corrsponding to the variations I've listed in my
notebook. (Test tiles work fine for conventional
firings, but for raku, you want to easily be able
to lift the tests out and treat them in a manner
comparable to the way you'll treat the final
pieces. So, make test pieces of similar size, with
multiple tests on each.)
If I have more than one base recipe to test, I'd
make a cylinder (or whatever) for each base.
I'm not being obstructive in not just giving you
the 'Perfect Recipe' - I don't know what's going
to be perfect for you. No one else can know that.
But even with limited firing access, you can do
a lot of useful tests.
If you test all the variations you can think of
at once, you won't need as many firings to nail
down a good result. Most likely, you'll find
quite a lot of usable ones from just one round.
Combine the color combos you like with the flux
levels you like, and the application thickness
you like when you do the final pieces. Especially
with engobes, and for non-functional work, lots
of 'tweaking' is seldom necessary, and any number
of recipes may turn out to suit your intentions.
-Snail
Snail Scott on tue 4 nov 03
At 09:58 PM 11/3/03 EST, you wrote:
>>[engobes]
>Well, if you have any suggestions, we typically fire to about 1830 (F).
>
I usually fire hotter, so I don't have any
particular recipe to suggest, especially since
I don't know quite what surface you're after.
There are a lot of recipes in books, though.
Try several variations of each, applied in
different ways, to find the effect you really
want.
-Snail
Susan Setley on tue 4 nov 03
In a message dated 11/4/03 10:42:52 AM, snail@MINDSPRING.COM writes:
<< >Well, if you have any suggestions, we typically fire to about 1830 (F).
>
I usually fire hotter, so I don't have any
particular recipe to suggest, especially since
I don't know quite what surface you're after.
There are a lot of recipes in books, though.
Try several variations of each, applied in
different ways, to find the effect you really
want. >>
Am I the only person here who does not have her own studio?
If anyone has suggestions for using engobes in Raku -- we generally fire to
around 1830 degrees. I do not have my own studio, and I do not have my own
kiln. I work in a shared space with limited access to the kiln. It's not that I'm
opposed to systematic experimentation. it's that with my limited access it
could take a year -- or more -- to sort out how to do it on my own. I welcome
suggestions. If I can't start from a somewhat focused place, then realistically I
can't explore it.
Susan Setley on tue 4 nov 03
"Here is a very quick and low tech point to start.
In a group situation there are always those buckets of glaze lying around
Take any stoneware glaze and any stain and apply thickly or in thin
washes on bisqued clay."
Even Cone ten? Intriguing idea, Brain, and easy to do.
Susan Setley on wed 5 nov 03
In a message dated 11/5/03 3:14:35 AM, snail@MINDSPRING.COM writes:
<< At 11:49 AM 11/4/03 EST, you wrote:
>I work in a shared space with limited access to the kiln. It's not that I'm
>opposed to systematic experimentation. it's that with my limited access it
>could take a year -- or more -- to sort out how to do it on my own...
Here's a way to start: Get hold of Chappell's
'Potter's Complete Book of Clay and Glaze". >>
Right there I'm already out of it. This the kind of thing I realistically
cannot do because I do not have my own studio and do not have y own kiln.
I think it's wonderful for those who can -- but that is what you need - your
own studio, where you can work a little on such a project every single day (or
nearly so).
Next time people complain that someone is asking for the easy way --
sometimes just the "easy way" is quite an accomplishment.
Susan Setley on wed 5 nov 03
In a message dated 11/4/03 6:56:20 PM, beeegeee@CLEAR.NET.NZ writes:
<< For art and sculpture I have the attitude that there is no meaning in
labelling glazes by temperature. >>
OK thanks... that's of course true but I was looking for a quick start on a
systematic approach because I don't have my own studio or kiln, making chances
to experiment precious.
I think it is just a major difference between those who have their own
facilities and those who don't.
Snail Scott on wed 5 nov 03
>In a message dated 11/5/03 3:14:35 AM, snail@MINDSPRING.COM writes:
>>Here's a way to start: Get hold of Chappell's
>>'Potter's Complete Book of Clay and Glaze". >>
At 09:56 AM 11/5/03 EST, you wrote:
>Right there I'm already out of it. This the kind of thing I realistically
>cannot do because I do not have my own studio and do not have y own kiln.
>I think it's wonderful for those who can -- but that is what you need - your
>own studio, where you can work a little on such a project every single day
(or
>nearly so).
>
>Next time people complain that someone is asking for the easy way --
>sometimes just the "easy way" is quite an accomplishment.
Honestly, this isn't so tough. Books with recipes can
be found in most public libraries. And while the method
I described for doing test variations is based on using
a gram scale, a postal scale or kitchen scale with
ounces will do - you just measure in larger increments.
A hour or two will suffice to make up a whole range of
variations on a single recipe. Go ahead and treat it
like cooking - a pinch of this oxide, a pinch of that
frit. Harder to replicate exactly, but as I said,
engobes tend to be forgiving. Just write down roughly
what you did for each batch.
You can do a lot without a private studio. An enclosed
porch, apartment balcony, or even a well-scrubbed kitchen
table can be enough space to do tests as well as small
projects. I worked for years on half an old door laid
across milk crates in a corner of my bedroom, hand-
carrying my stuff to a local shop to fire. I won prizes
for work I made that way. Later, I paid a memebership
fee to a co-op studio. No personal space, just the right
to come in and work on a wheel or tabletop, and get your
stuff fired by the staff. (Another member from that time
has had her work featured in those flashy Amaco ads in
CM. Very successful craft-fair and gallery potter, even
then.) My first 'real studio' was a one-car shed-garage
with no electricity, no water, no windows, no insulation
or heat. I ran extension cord end-to-end from the window
of the house across the yard, to plug in some clamp
lamps. Still transporting work to wherever someone would
rent me firing space. Later, I found a beater kiln at an
estate sale for $75. Replaced elements and bricks, and
added a breaker box without telling the landlady. (A
piece fired in that kiln may be in the 2004 calendar -
the one with clay, not the buff British backsides.) ;)
My current studio is a lot nicer - 2/3 of a two-car
garage, with a window AND insulation! Portable kerosene
heater, and even hot running water. (Ooh!) I still have
that old door, and the old kiln. (Gave up the crates.)
I've probably invested close to $600 in all my current
equipment, total, not counting the $250 it cost to build
the kilnshed. (Had a tarp weighted down with a stopsign,
before. Couldn't fire in the rain.)
And I had to walk through the snow barefoot to get
there and back, uphill in both directions! ;)
I'm not shoveling this hard-luck story for sympathy or
one-upmanship (one-downmanship?) My point is that you
don't need much equipment to do most of this. Having
a kiln is great, but reading and making tests, you
can do almost anywhere. And if you have access to a
shared or rented kiln, you can do almost anything.
In a single afternoon, you can make dozens of surface
tests that will fit in one raku firing, right next to
the regular work. Sure, you may not get to experiment
with variations in the firing itself, but that's just
one variable. Work with the things you CAN control.
You do not need a private studio for any of this, and
it's not time-consuming. Or scary. And I'm NOT asking
you to do your own tests because I want withhold the
Secret of the Perfect Engobe. Truly, no one else's
tests or experience can tell you what you need to
know: how a given recipe or material will look and act
on YOUR work, with your textures and your application
methods, and your materials and your firing style,
and fulfill your intentions for YOUR work.
I am not dissing the awkwardness of your situation;
I've been there. But don't underestimate your own
resourcefulness, either.
-Snail
Brian on wed 5 nov 03
Susan wrote about engobes and said
>"It's not that I'm opposed to systematic experimentation. it's that
>with my limited access it could take a year -- or more -- to sort
>out how to do it on my own. I welcome
>suggestions."
Here is a very quick and low tech point to start.
In a group situation there are always those buckets of glaze lying around
Take any stoneware glaze and any stain and apply thickly or in thin
washes on bisqued clay.
Firing this to raku temperatures will give a dry mat finish which
will vary from glaze to glaze of course.....some will fuse more than
others
There are a couple of examples on my Raku gallery page (the one in
the bottom right hand corner is the prime example)
http://www.gartside.info/gallerylowfire12.htm
Brian
Susan Setley on wed 5 nov 03
In a message dated 11/5/03 2:12:34 PM, snail@MINDSPRING.COM writes:
<< You can do a lot without a private studio. An enclosed
porch, apartment balcony, or even a well-scrubbed kitchen
table can be enough space to do tests as well as small
projects. >>
Snail, I CANNOT DO WHAT I INITIALLY ASKED ABOUT IN MY HOPE, which has neither
enclosed porch nor balcony. You would be amazed, perhaps, at what I do do at
home, but for what this started with -- I CANNOT DO IT AT HOME. I cannot do
raku test firings at home. My oven simply doesn't go that high. :)
Susan Setley on wed 5 nov 03
In a message dated 11/5/03 2:12:34 PM, snail@MINDSPRING.COM writes:
<< >In a message dated 11/5/03 3:14:35 AM, snail@MINDSPRING.COM writes:
>>Here's a way to start: Get hold of Chappell's
>>'Potter's Complete Book of Clay and Glaze". >>
At 09:56 AM 11/5/03 EST, you wrote:
>Right there I'm already out of it. This the kind of thing I realistically
>cannot do because I do not have my own studio and do not have y own kiln.
>I think it's wonderful for those who can -- but that is what you need - your
>own studio, where you can work a little on such a project every single day
(or
>nearly so).
>
>Next time people complain that someone is asking for the easy way --
>sometimes just the "easy way" is quite an accomplishment.
Honestly, this isn't so tough. Books with recipes can
be found in most public libraries. >>
You are COMPLETELY misunderstanding me. Of course books can be found in the
libraries. I have four here right now.
It is not about whether one can find thousands of recipes but rather some
here would be willing to help me CUT TO THE CHASE a little BECAUSE I don't have
my own kiln and have VERY limited ability to do experimenting.
That was the basis for my question. I will continue to ask that as it comes
up -- if someone will have information they have discovered that I can already
use ...
... because my opportunities for systematic experimentation are limited. That
may make me quite different from most poeple on the list, but it is my
reality.
Please don't tell me to set up my own studio. It isn't an option.
Brian on wed 5 nov 03
On 4/11/03,I wrote
>"Here is a very quick and low tech point to start.
>In a group situation there are always those buckets of glaze lying around
>Take any stoneware glaze and any stain and apply thickly or in thin
>washes on bisqued clay."
thirdrockfan replied...
>Even Cone ten? Intriguing idea, Brain, and easy to do.
For those of us not involved with functional surfaces we have untold
freedom to mix by handfuls and melt all those powders and liquids in
weird and totally irreverent ways.
For art and sculpture I have the attitude that there is no meaning in
labelling glazes by temperature. Sometimes all we need to do is just
ignore all we have been told about recipes and use whatever we have
around us in a random way and for variation sprinkle lightly or dump
heaps of ceramic stain in for colour.
I am designing a series of posters/wall charts illustrating how easy
it is to make fabulous glaze textures at any temperature.
They are at the printers right now and will be ready for when I teach
the workshop at Michelle Lowe's Dragon Pottery in Phoenix in early
December.
--
Brian
http://www.gartside.info
Pukekohe, New Zealand
Snail Scott on thu 6 nov 03
At 03:18 PM 11/5/03 EST, you wrote:
>Snail,
>...I cannot do raku test firings at home.
>My oven simply doesn't go that high. :)
I'm sorry; I thought that you had some sort of
access to a raku kiln in an intitutional setting -
a class or some such - and the use of materials
there. Did I misunderstand? I never meant to
imply that you need your own studio, but rather
just the opposite - how much it's possible to do
with nearly nothing.
Is the problem that you will only have a one-time
opportunity to fire raku? I just assumed that
if you have access to raku firing, and to glaze-
making materials, that doing one round of testing
before firing your final pieces wouldn't be
impossible. What am I missing? (I'm trying to be
helpful, here!)
Even if someone out on Clayart has used engobes
for raku extensively, their preferred surface
may not be what you had in mind. And even if it
was, the manner of application, firing, and
reduction make doing at least one set of tests
pretty much essential, if the outcome matters to
you.
If you truly have NO opportunity to test an
unknown surface before firing your work, I think
I'd keep is simple, and use no surface coating
at all. More good work has been ruined by an
untestedsurface treatment than has been saved
by a fortuitous guess.
-Snail
Susan Setley on thu 6 nov 03
In a message dated 11/6/03 2:21:46 PM, snail@MINDSPRING.COM writes:
<< At 03:18 PM 11/5/03 EST, you wrote:
>Snail,
>...I cannot do raku test firings at home.
>My oven simply doesn't go that high. :)
I'm sorry; I thought that you had some sort of
access to a raku kiln in an intitutional setting -
a class or some such - and the use of materials
there. Did I misunderstand? >>
Yes, you have completely misunderstood, but I will explain one more time. I
have very LIMITED access.
I was asking specific questions. I know you mean well and you're being very
generous with your time but I'm past the advice you're giving. thanks anyway.
Joan Littlecreek on mon 10 nov 03
----- Original Message -----
From: "Snail Scott"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: subdued Raku/engobes
> At 11:49 AM 11/4/03 EST, you wrote:
> >I work in a shared space with limited access to the kiln. It's not that
I'm
> >opposed to systematic experimentation. it's that with my limited access
it
> >could take a year -- or more -- to sort out how to do it on my own...
>
>
> Here's a way to start: Get hold of Chappell's 'Potter's Complete Book of
Clay and Glaze"........ Especially with engobes, and for non-functional
work, lots of 'tweaking' is seldom necessary, and any number of recipes may
turn out to suit your intentions.
>
> -Snail
> You may remember that in june Of 2002 I was crying our your (my friends at
clayart) shoulders about some juvenile delinquents who stole my van. It was
loaded with all of my work to be taken to my biggest earning show of the
year. They took the van on a high speed chase from the police, broke out
the windows and threw my pots, equipment, displays and dare I say a big
part of my life out the windows. (oh yeah, they totaled the van too).
At the time I thought maybe now is the time to take some of those new
directions in clay you have thought about, but never acted on. That was 18
months ago.
I am fortunate to have a basement studio (of sorts): I don't have to worry
about where to work in the winter and its cool in the summer. No worries
what to do with frozen glazes or equipment. I have a 3 wheels, a slab
roller, an extruder, 3 raku kilns and a couple of small electric kilns. I
think I have been suffering from some sort of
"traumatic-shock-stress-disorder-syndrome." I signed off the list, and
gave up clay more than a year ago. I didn't touch clay again, until last
night.
I think I am having some kind of "breakthrough", but didn't know where to
start on those new directions in clay. So, I sign on the computer and here
is your email! Thank you so much, for the directions on how to START.
I want to start using my kiln for something other than bisque. It is not
new, but it has only fired bisque and a couple loads of porcelain dolls.
(^6).
Now, I am asking for help from the list. I do not do functional work, but
what can I do in a kiln that does not have a digital programmer? My
largest kiln is a Cress that can be run manually or with a kiln sitter and
fires to ^10. All help gratefully appreciated.
Celia Littlecreek
Littlecreeks Uniques
littlec@paulbunyan.net
wayneinkeywest on mon 10 nov 03
Celia:
In answer to that question..."what can I do with a kiln..."
Anything you want! You go for it. I have no controller, just a kiln
sitter. Load the thing, set it going, grab a book, watch the kiln.
Welcome back!
Wayne Seidl
> Now, I am asking for help from the list. I do not do functional work, but
> what can I do in a kiln that does not have a digital programmer? My
> largest kiln is a Cress that can be run manually or with a kiln sitter and
> fires to ^10. All help gratefully appreciated.
>
> Celia Littlecreek
> Littlecreeks Uniques
> littlec@paulbunyan.net
Snail Scott on tue 11 nov 03
At 05:31 PM 11/10/03 -0600, you wrote:
>...what can I do in a kiln that does not have a digital programmer?
Darn near anything! Well, crystalline glazes would
be tougher, but honestly, I'm glad to not have a
controller. Sure, I've gotta be there to turn it
up, but I'm generally around anyway, and I like
knowing that if anything goes wrong, I can fix it
with a screwdriver and some lineman's crimpers.
Sustainable technology. I can see how a controller
would be a godsend for people that can't be there
for the full firing cycle, like teachers, or for
people whose production output makes automation a
genuine advantage, but I've never felt my manual
electric kiln to be any handicap at all.
You can do pottery, sculpture, mural works, or
whatever, in stoneware or earthenware or paperclay
or mid-range porcelain. (You could do ^10 if you
wanted, but it's rougher on the elements.) Red clay,
white clay, buff clay, clay stained with colors like
the rainbow. You can use glossy glazes, matte glazes,
engobes, overglazes and lusters, china paints,
oxides, or no surface treatment at all.
The only things you really can't do effectively are
vapor-glazing and reduction. Those things are nice,
but there's a whole huge range of other things that
electric kilns, with oe without fancy controllers,
can do, and do well.
-Snail
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