Chris Schafale on wed 5 nov 03
Cat,
I use cone 6 pots as ovenware all the time and have
never had a problem. We are talking about
OVENware, right, not FLAMEware?? No pots are
really appropriate for using on the stovetop, IMO,
although some have developed specialized claybodies
for this purpose, but most stoneware seems to be OK
for the oven as long as you don't do anything stupid
like take it out of the freezer and put it directly into a
400 degree oven. There is no need to try to glaze it all
over, and in any case, high-fire ware doesn't take well
to being stilted -- tends to warp as it reaches maturity.
Chris
On 5 Nov 2003 at 16:18, Cat Yassin wrote:
Could Cone 6 pots be used as ovenware if the clay and
glaze had a nice fit?
Or is it just a bad idea all around? The only thing I
found in the archives was
a small discussion on ovenware and even a high fire
stoneware, at say a cone
10, was somewhat discouraged. And if its possible is it
best to glaze the
whole pot, bottom and all and use stilts and not leave
any exposed clay?
Thanks!
-Cat Yassin
SAn Antonio
____________________________________________
__________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
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Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
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Light One Candle Pottery
Fuquay-Varina, North Carolina, USA
(south of Raleigh)
candle@intrex.net
http://www.lightonecandle.com
Cat Yassin on wed 5 nov 03
In a message dated 11/5/2003 7:34:07 PM Central Standard Time,
CW@WIAN-STUDIOS.COM writes:
> Both have
> unglazed foot rings. I also have a stoneware pie plate that I use regularly
> and it's not glazed at all on the bottom.
>
Cecelia, thats one of the reasons why I asked the original question, because
I have a ceramic pie plate too. However it is glazed all around and not
completely flat on the bottom. It says says its conventional and microwave oven
approved. I'm guessing that since its glazed all around there isn't a concern
about moisture getting in through any exposed clay. I know with a cooking stone
there are special considerations about getting it wet and using it right away. I
would like to make a pie plate for myself but don't know if a Cone 6 clay and
glaze would be ok. I have made some cone 10 casseroles and used them without
any problems, flat, and no glaze on bottom.
-Cat Yassin
Cat Yassin on wed 5 nov 03
Could Cone 6 pots be used as ovenware if the clay and glaze had a nice fit?
Or is it just a bad idea all around? The only thing I found in the archives was
a small discussion on ovenware and even a high fire stoneware, at say a cone
10, was somewhat discouraged. And if its possible is it best to glaze the
whole pot, bottom and all and use stilts and not leave any exposed clay?
Thanks!
-Cat Yassin
SAn Antonio
Cecilia Wian on wed 5 nov 03
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cat Yassin"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 1:18 PM
Subject: cone 6 as ovenware?
> Could Cone 6 pots be used as ovenware if the clay and glaze had a nice
fit?
> Or is it just a bad idea all around? The only thing I found in the
archives was
> a small discussion on ovenware and even a high fire stoneware, at say a
cone
> 10, was somewhat discouraged. And if its possible is it best to glaze the
> whole pot, bottom and all and use stilts and not leave any exposed clay?
>
> Thanks!
> -Cat Yassin
> SAn Antonio
I'm really starting to get confused too, because I have two bread bowls.
They're both stoneware, about 7" high and 7" in diameter. They were made to
bake bread in. They were sold that way, with a recipe. I've used them for
probably 5 years now, for all sorts of recipes. No problems. Both have
unglazed foot rings. I also have a stoneware pie plate that I use regularly
and it's not glazed at all on the bottom.
It'd be helpful to hear from some folks who use pots in day to day cooking
and what works and what's broken and why.
Thanks,
Cecilia
Jon Brinley on wed 5 nov 03
Hello All,
I've had two pieces damaged recently. One from the =
microwave. The other from the oven. One ^6 glazed plate (on ^10 Bmix). =
Unglazed bottom, flat (no footring). The other a flat cooking stone. ^6 =
clay. Both damaged in the same way. CRACKED in half. My wife the chef =
does not abuse her ware, so I couldn't say it was her fault. I then =
started looking at the pieces themselves. The plate body appeared to =
be vitrified. The glaze was shape at the break. The cooking stone was =
another story. It appeared to be crumbly inside at the break. It was in =
use for about a year before it broke.=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Cecilia Wian=20
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: cone 6 as ovenware?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cat Yassin"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 1:18 PM
Subject: cone 6 as ovenware?
> Could Cone 6 pots be used as ovenware if the clay and glaze had a =
nice
fit?
> Or is it just a bad idea all around? The only thing I found in the
archives was
> a small discussion on ovenware and even a high fire stoneware, at =
say a
cone
> 10, was somewhat discouraged. And if its possible is it best to =
glaze the
> whole pot, bottom and all and use stilts and not leave any exposed =
clay?
>
> Thanks!
> -Cat Yassin
> SAn Antonio
I'm really starting to get confused too, because I have two bread =
bowls.
They're both stoneware, about 7" high and 7" in diameter. They were =
made to
bake bread in. They were sold that way, with a recipe. I've used them =
for
probably 5 years now, for all sorts of recipes. No problems. Both have
unglazed foot rings. I also have a stoneware pie plate that I use =
regularly
and it's not glazed at all on the bottom.
It'd be helpful to hear from some folks who use pots in day to day =
cooking
and what works and what's broken and why.
Thanks,
Cecilia
=
_________________________________________________________________________=
_____
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at =
melpots@pclink.com.
John Rodgers on thu 6 nov 03
I work almost exclusively with a ^5 porcelanous stoneware (Laguna B-Mix)
and a ^6 porcelain ( Grolleg). Both vitrify very well at their
respective cone/temperatures/maturity. With good fitting glazes, my ware
works very well as ovenware and in a microwave. I have had no problems
at all with these two clay bodies. When I first started working with ^5
B-Mix ocassionally I would have a bowl crack from the center right to
the rim in the bisque firing, but this was a methods and technique
problem, as it turned out, rather than a problem with the clay. I have
never had a casserole dish or lid crack in use, nor has anyone ever
reported a failure to me.
I would say that my experience simply confirms John Hasselberths points
about the use and desirablility of a cone 6 claybody.
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
Cat Yassin wrote:
>In a message dated 11/6/2003 4:01:57 PM Central Standard Time,
>jh_rodgers@BELLSOUTH.NET writes:
>
>
>
>>But vitrified claybodies should not have this problem. Water is not
>>entrained. Vitrification can be accomplished at cone 6, but at cones
>>like 10,11, and 12, it's the best, and the ware is a lot stronger to
>>resist breakage of any kind.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Well John, that was a hunk of information you included in your response! It
>is greatly appreciated. Given all that information, if I was to sell Cone 6
>ovenware (gasp! are there ppl cringing already?) then are there any suggestions
>on what type of information I should include with the pieces regarding how to
>care for them? If there are recommendations to NOT sell Cone 6 ovenware I will
>definitely take that into consideration.
>
>-Cat Yassin
>San Antonio
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
Rikki Gill on thu 6 nov 03
Hi Chris,
There are some clay bodies that do very well as flameware. In Italy and
France they are/were in common use when I lived there years ago. The trick
is that they are low fired earthenware, glazed only on the inside. I used
them myself for things like stews that required long, low heat cooking. I
really liked the way food tasted. I also made a flameware pot from a
Richard Behrens formular that lasted for a long time. I think people think
these can shatter, but after a few years of use the Behrens pot cracked, and
I stopped using it. It was like a crack in a kiln shelf. It was still
usable, but no longer appropriate for food.
If you want to try it for yourself, we had a thread on this a few years ago.
Best, Rikki Gill
rikigil@cwnet.com
www.rikkigillceramics.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schafale"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: cone 6 as ovenware?
> Cat,
>
> I use cone 6 pots as ovenware all the time and have
> never had a problem. We are talking about
> OVENware, right, not FLAMEware?? No pots are
> really appropriate for using on the stovetop, IMO,
> although some have developed specialized claybodies
> for this purpose, but most stoneware seems to be OK
> for the oven as long as you don't do anything stupid
> like take it out of the freezer and put it directly into a
> 400 degree oven. There is no need to try to glaze it all
> over, and in any case, high-fire ware doesn't take well
> to being stilted -- tends to warp as it reaches maturity.
>
> Chris
>
> On 5 Nov 2003 at 16:18, Cat Yassin wrote:
>
> Could Cone 6 pots be used as ovenware if the clay and
> glaze had a nice fit?
> Or is it just a bad idea all around? The only thing I
> found in the archives was
> a small discussion on ovenware and even a high fire
> stoneware, at say a cone
> 10, was somewhat discouraged. And if its possible is it
> best to glaze the
> whole pot, bottom and all and use stilts and not leave
> any exposed clay?
>
> Thanks!
> -Cat Yassin
> SAn Antonio
>
> ____________________________________________
> __________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
> Light One Candle Pottery
> Fuquay-Varina, North Carolina, USA
> (south of Raleigh)
> candle@intrex.net
> http://www.lightonecandle.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
John Rodgers on thu 6 nov 03
Cat, I missed your original question, but if I get the gist of it , you
are really concerned with vitrification at cone 6.
If you have a clay body with the right ingredients, it should vitrify at
cone 6, and you should have no trouble with it for oven or microwave.
Not so however for direct heat as on a hot electric eye on a stove. It
may work for a gas range, --- but about that I cannot address - but it
is definitely a no-no for electrics.
Any clay that is open and porous after firing - earthenware for example,
will entrain water, even if it is glazed, and disaster can happen, as in
a steam explosion. The water always finds a way under the glaze somehow.
With a fully vitrified claybody it won't happen. I have never see glazed
earthenware that did not craze sooner or later as a result of water
getting into the clay under the glaze. There may be some cases where it
doesn't, but I have never seen it. Sooner or later......it crazes. If
such a piece is heated it will, as any entrained moisture expands and
turns to steam. It may not even have to turn to steam for that matter.
Water expands as it heats, even before turning to steam, and depending
on the amount of moisture present it may expand sufficiently to cause
further crazing, cracking or even breaking of the piece.
But vitrified claybodies should not have this problem. Water is not
entrained. Vitrification can be accomplished at cone 6, but at cones
like 10,11, and 12, it's the best, and the ware is a lot stronger to
resist breakage of any kind.
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
Cat Yassin wrote:
>In a message dated 11/5/2003 7:34:07 PM Central Standard Time,
>CW@WIAN-STUDIOS.COM writes:
>
>
>
>>Both have
>>unglazed foot rings. I also have a stoneware pie plate that I use regularly
>>and it's not glazed at all on the bottom.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Cecelia, thats one of the reasons why I asked the original question, because
>I have a ceramic pie plate too. However it is glazed all around and not
>completely flat on the bottom. It says says its conventional and microwave oven
>approved. I'm guessing that since its glazed all around there isn't a concern
>about moisture getting in through any exposed clay. I know with a cooking stone
>there are special considerations about getting it wet and using it right away. I
>would like to make a pie plate for myself but don't know if a Cone 6 clay and
>glaze would be ok. I have made some cone 10 casseroles and used them without
>any problems, flat, and no glaze on bottom.
>
>-Cat Yassin
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
Cat Yassin on thu 6 nov 03
In a message dated 11/6/2003 4:01:57 PM Central Standard Time,
jh_rodgers@BELLSOUTH.NET writes:
> But vitrified claybodies should not have this problem. Water is not
> entrained. Vitrification can be accomplished at cone 6, but at cones
> like 10,11, and 12, it's the best, and the ware is a lot stronger to
> resist breakage of any kind.
>
Well John, that was a hunk of information you included in your response! It
is greatly appreciated. Given all that information, if I was to sell Cone 6
ovenware (gasp! are there ppl cringing already?) then are there any suggestions
on what type of information I should include with the pieces regarding how to
care for them? If there are recommendations to NOT sell Cone 6 ovenware I will
definitely take that into consideration.
-Cat Yassin
San Antonio
John Hesselberth on thu 6 nov 03
On Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 03:32 PM, John Rodgers wrote:
> But vitrified claybodies should not have this problem. Water is not
> entrained. Vitrification can be accomplished at cone 6, but at cones
> like 10,11, and 12, it's the best, and the ware is a lot stronger to
> resist breakage of any kind.
I could easily make the case that cone 6 is preferred over cone 10-12
for ovenware. First it can be adequately vitrified with no problem--not
by using a cone 10 body at cone 6, but by using a well formulated cone
6 body. Second, cone 6 does not normally have a cristobalite
problem--cone 10 bodies can easily have this problem if they contain
excess silica and that is bad news for oven ware. The cristoballite
phase conversion occurs at 226 deg C (439 deg F)--within the range of
normal oven temperatures. This results in a rapid 3% change in volume.
That can easily crack a casserole dish. Of course, properly formulated,
cone 10 bodies should be OK also, but it is a lot easier for a potter
to tell if a body is properly vitrified than if it (at cone 10-12) has
a cristobalite problem.
So my answer to your question is that cone 6 stoneware is fine for
ovenware if you make sure the glaze is durable and fits well, and the
body is well vitrified (below 3% water absorption). It may well be
preferred over cone 10-12.
Regards,
John
http://www.frogpondpottery.com
http://www.masteringglazes.com
Brant Palley NMCLAY.com on fri 7 nov 03
Flameware and beanpots are made by taking a rough red earthenware like
Mica red or Fuji (clays we make) and firing them to cone 016 (no glaze!).
A Beanpot made fired LOW will take the thermal shock of a direct gas
flame, or an electric burner with a diffuser pad. The key to this is that
the clay body is very open. The pot can be sealed with some kind of
vegetable oil to season it.
Brant Palley
www.nmclay.com
Ron Roy on fri 7 nov 03
Hi Cat,
In a word - yes - and it just might be the best temperature to be firing
ware for the oven - I concur with John on this.
You are right - get the clay and glaze to fit properly - most cracking in
the oven is due to liner glazes that have too low an expansion for the clay
body.
Cone 10 is tricky because you don't want any cristobalite - which goes
through it's inversion at oven temperatures. Many of the current stoneware
clay bodies - designed for cone 10 - produce cristobalite.
For those firing to cone 10 - read the article by Peter Sohngen in vol 28
#1 of Studio Potter - it's all there.
Using the same glaze inside and out is the best way.
the shape of the ware has a pronounced effect on cracking as well - flat
bottomed ware tends to concentrate any misfit at the corners at the bottom
- especially if there is extra glaze at that point - as there usually is.
Rounded shapes transfer stress in a much more even way.
Using the glaze and clay fit series of glazes in Mastering cone 6 Glazes
will tell you where you need to be - glazes with low enough expansion so
they won't craze but no lower.
RR
>Could Cone 6 pots be used as ovenware if the clay and glaze had a nice fit?
>Or is it just a bad idea all around? The only thing I found in the archives was
>a small discussion on ovenware and even a high fire stoneware, at say a cone
>10, was somewhat discouraged. And if its possible is it best to glaze the
>whole pot, bottom and all and use stilts and not leave any exposed clay?
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Stephen on sat 8 nov 03
The only clay I've used that I would trust for ovenware was made for that
purpose. It had talc and grog in it. but the limmits of talc are tricky. I
think it was 3-5% for a high fireclay stoneware at ^10-12. It would
probably work at ^6. I have used talc for saggars and for oven ware and a
low fire, heat resistant body. when I accidentally fired the 7% clay meant
for low fire to stoneware it looked like lava. a total mess. But one of my
casseroles meant for high fire fell over 6 ft. into the fire box durring a
wood firing and both lid and casserole made it. These are still being used
by a freind.
Stephen
Connie Woodward on sat 8 nov 03
On 11/7/03 9:42 PM, "Brant Palley NMCLAY.com" wrote:
> The key to this is that
> the clay body is very open. The pot can be sealed with some kind of
> vegetable oil to season it.
around here (SE Texas) I have seen (in stores) tortilla warmers made from
some kind of clay (seems more like a stoneware than terra cotta, but still =
a
rough open textured clay) that has some kind of oil seasoning on the inside
surfaces.... Just what/how is the vegetable oil used for seasoning? doesn't
the oil in the pores of the clay turn rancid? Does it really seal it well
enough that bacteria and germs don=B9t penetrate into the clay
thanks,
Connie
>=20
> Brant Palley
> www.nmclay.com
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
_____
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>=20
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>=20
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Connie Woodward Karattopp Pottery www.karattopp.com
Navasota, TX 713-256-5907
John Rodgers on sat 8 nov 03
Cast iron pots are porous when new. Water will go through them until the
are "Seasoned" by coating with oil and burning it in by heating in an
oven. Then you never scrub the skillet or pot, just wipe it out,
otherwise it destroys the seal.
To reseal a cast iron skillet, I have seen my father put my mothers cast
iron ware into the coals of the fireplace, bring them to red hot for a
while, then after removing and cooling, scrub them up, add new oil, and
again heat them in the oven. Seemed to work every time.
Would not an open clay body work this way???
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
Brant Palley NMCLAY.com wrote:
>Flameware and beanpots are made by taking a rough red earthenware like
>Mica red or Fuji (clays we make) and firing them to cone 016 (no glaze!).
>A Beanpot made fired LOW will take the thermal shock of a direct gas
>flame, or an electric burner with a diffuser pad. The key to this is that
>the clay body is very open. The pot can be sealed with some kind of
>vegetable oil to season it.
>
>Brant Palley
>www.nmclay.com
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
Cat Yassin on sat 8 nov 03
In a message dated 11/7/2003 5:20:48 PM Central Standard Time,
ronroy@TOTAL.NET writes:
> Using the glaze and clay fit series of glazes in Mastering cone 6 Glazes
> will tell you where you need to be - glazes with low enough expansion so
> they won't craze but no lower. I usually say - keep the clay on the thick
> side and the glaze on the thin
> side - get the clay/glaze fit right, shoot for a clay absorption of about
> 2%, make shapes that transfer stress in an even way and find some lower
> expansion bodies.
>
Ron, thank you and everyone else so very much for your responses! After
having lost my "Mastering Cone 6 Glazes" book for a few months I have finally found
it! Phew... I was just about to order another one :) I have having great
success with the Licorice and Raspberry. And on a side note... I had posted to
clayart earlier this year about a black glaze I was using that had a
questionable amount of Manganese Dioxide in it and you recommended Licorice instead. I am
very pleased with the results.
Thanks again to all that responded to my question :)
-Cat Yassin
San Antonio (Who actually had to use a space heater last night in my garage
studio!)
Ron Roy on mon 10 nov 03
Using talc in high fired oven ware is very tricky - you can easily wind up
with a lot of cristobalite - I don't recommend it at all.
Peter Sohngens article is a must read if you are going to make ovenware at
cone 10 - the main part is how to avoid cristobalite.
Getting glaze expansion matched up with the clay in ovenware is probably
the most important part of ovenware.
There is an excellent description on flameware bodies in Ceramic Science
for the Potter - 2nd edition by Laurence and West - low expansion bodies
for flame ware - but you have to go higher than cone 10.
If - after you read that you still want to pursue flameware in a studio
setting - well good luck.
Ceramic Science for the Potter has been reprinted by Gentle Breeze
Publishing by the way - Axner will certainly have it.
RR
>The only clay I've used that I would trust for ovenware was made for that
>purpose. It had talc and grog in it. but the limmits of talc are tricky. I
>think it was 3-5% for a high fireclay stoneware at ^10-12. It would
>probably work at ^6. I have used talc for saggars and for oven ware and a
>low fire, heat resistant body. when I accidentally fired the 7% clay meant
>for low fire to stoneware it looked like lava. a total mess. But one of my
>casseroles meant for high fire fell over 6 ft. into the fire box durring a
>wood firing and both lid and casserole made it. These are still being used
>by a freind.
>Stephen
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Janet Kaiser on tue 11 nov 03
>Could Cone 6 pots be used as ovenware if the clay and
>glaze had a nice fit?
If it cannot, then ALL my prejudices are completely justified!!
But seriously... A well-made pot/casserole with a good glaze will
last for years and years no matter if low, medium or high fired.
Indeed whether with or without a glaze, it does not matter as
long as it is well-made and fired well.
What usually causes breakages (in my experience) is the
inappropriate handling pre and post oven cooking. Like taking a
pot out of a hot oven and placing it onto a cold surface or vice
versa... A very cold pot put into a hot oven before it reached
room temperature. It may even be OK and survive once, twice or
even many times, but usually it will pop sooner or later.
Also clay bodies which are very absorbent are prone to breakage,
especially if they are not allowed to dry out between times...
Then again, there are those unglazed terracotta R=F6mertopf
casseroles and "succulant chicken basters" which are supposed to
be soaked in water before use... So much depends on the clay and
the cooking method...
IMO there is a reason why "traditionally" roasts and other high
temperature cooking such as grilling was done in metal trays, not
ceramic or glass... On the whole, I think ceramic pots are best
used for slow cooking methods, such as stews and casseroles with
high liquid content and over several hours in a slow oven, but of
course these days if you claim it is "ovenware" it has to
withstand maximum temperatures and "extreme conditions"... 500
=B0F with no liquid, left for three hours and burned to a cinder
because the cook went out to mow the lawn and got side tracked...
"Hey, this pot is not oven proof! I want my money back!"...
Humm... Like the ijit who tried boiling a teapot on the stove...
I know this will sound like heresy to many, but I personally do
not generally use anything ceramic into the microwave, but prefer
using glass so I can see what is going on or even better... the
purpose-made Tupperware so I know it will definitely not be too
hot to handle as it has a useful wide rim... More so, now that
weight has also become a factor and major concern due to the
aging process and my medical condition! For all my love of
ceramic pots, practical considerations do enter and they are just
too heavy. In our aging population, I am not alone either!
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser -- remembering the time I came home from school
crying because a stand of much beloved trees were being felled to
pay some of a local farmer's outstanding debts... Poor David
H... What a wrench... Even if it was planned...
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The top posted mail was sent by Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art : Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent : Criccieth : Wales : UK
Centre of Excellence for The Arts
Home of The International Potters' Path
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 http://www.the-coa.org.uk
Open: 13.00 to 17.00hrs : Tuesday to Saturday
************** AVG Virus Protected ********************
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