Kathi LeSueur on fri 7 nov 03
kef@KFORER.COM wrote:
> Hello again,
> I have a 1200 sf three-quarter .......
>
> A direct vent space heater seems appropriate. I would also like the
> unit to do double-duty slightly warming the concrete ceiling which is
> my main very cold floor of the poorly heated upstairs living area. I'm
> in the lower north-east so it gets pretty cold here.
>
> My biggest problem is the gas inlet is on the southwest of my 30' x 40'
> space and the unit needs to be in the northeast. Four contractors have
> estimated this as a full day's work to get a line across this distance
> and at $150/hr!! that makes my already inflated budget of $2500 not go
> very far.>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
I see no reason why you can't run the pipe yourself. You just need black
pipe. It can be run above ground. Get a strong guy to help with it and
make sure those joints are tight. I have a direct bent heater in my
studio that I got from Sears in 1987. I've never had a problem with it.
I heat a 24 X 24 space. Make sure you soap the connections to check for
leaks.
Kathi
Kathy Forer on fri 7 nov 03
Hello again,
I have a 1200 sf three-quarter (one side open to a terrace) basement
studio I need to heat. I've searched the archives and spoken with
contractors but still have some questions.
A direct vent space heater seems appropriate. I would also like the
unit to do double-duty slightly warming the concrete ceiling which is
my main very cold floor of the poorly heated upstairs living area. I'm
in the lower north-east so it gets pretty cold here.
My biggest problem is the gas inlet is on the southwest of my 30' x 40'
space and the unit needs to be in the northeast. Four contractors have
estimated this as a full day's work to get a line across this distance
and at $150/hr!! that makes my already inflated budget of $2500 not go
very far.
I can get a Reznor plain hot air pusher for $600 or go with a fancy
$1500 Rinnai unit with built-in humidifier. The lower-cost unit has
higher btu's but some have said I'd be miserable with forced burnt air
pushing around the dust. OTOH, the Rinnai is only rated for 38,000
btu's.
This is a rental space though I hope to stay here more than another two
years.
I have a wood stove upstairs and my allergies are at times sensitive to
the burning wood, so I wouldn't consider that as a solution. Though I
have a really nice Petit Godin stove that came with me from elsewhere
that I'd like to sell....
Alternatively, has anyone decided that it makes sense to self-install
less expensive electric units, -- like King, the type my Bikram yoga
has, -- and use the gas-installation savings to pay for electricity?
I'd be most grateful for any kind of advice.
Thank you, Kathy Forer
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sat 8 nov 03
Hi Kathy,
How far does the Gas Pipe have to be run? And must it run
through any walls or ? Is the terminal end of the pipe
merely on the far side of the room?
Black Iron Pipe comes in twenty-foot sticks, usualy threaded
on the ends, and, for the
diameter you need, is likely about twelve or fifteen Dollars
a stick at places as carry it for the trade.
The other fittings, some Pipe-Dope, a test gauge, and a
decent on-off
Valve should be
another twenty five bucks or so...
If one of the sticks needs to be cut to length, and then be
threaded on one end for
having been cut, to accomidate the final length of the run,
most 'Home-Improvement' stores offer that service for a
couple bucks ( if you are nice to them they will not care
where you bought the pipe...)
Unless there need to be a lot of unexpected holes to drill
in Walls or something, or angles
to make in the run, a run of even a hundred feet would take
an honest Man about an hour maybe, if that, to do.
Are you in a Commercial Zoned setting?
If not, you or someone as can do basic things, may be
allowed by law to just do this yourself.
It is neither difficult nor mysterious to do.
I have run full arrangements of Gas pipe in buildings from
scratch, threading many of the ends and so on, and it is fun
and easy to do. One observes a few basic safety-quality
matters, such as a pressure test at the end, and that the
threads have been respected...maybe fastening the pipe with
a little clip now and then to some support...dope the
threads...
None of it is any big deal...and certainly not so big a deal
as to allow some 'contractor' to rip you off so horribly.
I do not like 'contractors' myself...in fact, it is hartd to
think of any catagory I dislike more.
If you feel shy about doing it yourself, perhaps there is a
friend or neighbor, or a retired
fellow of practical experience, who would do the deed for
you at an honest price.
Best wishes,
And good luck...
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathy Forer"
> Hello again,
> I have a 1200 sf three-quarter (one side open to a
terrace) basement
> studio I need to heat. I've searched the archives and
spoken with
> contractors but still have some questions.
>
> A direct vent space heater seems appropriate. I would also
like the
> unit to do double-duty slightly warming the concrete
ceiling which is
> my main very cold floor of the poorly heated upstairs
living area. I'm
> in the lower north-east so it gets pretty cold here.
>
> My biggest problem is the gas inlet is on the southwest of
my 30' x 40'
> space and the unit needs to be in the northeast. Four
contractors have
> estimated this as a full day's work to get a line across
this distance
> and at $150/hr!! that makes my already inflated budget of
$2500 not go
> very far.
>
> I can get a Reznor plain hot air pusher for $600 or go
with a fancy
> $1500 Rinnai unit with built-in humidifier. The lower-cost
unit has
> higher btu's but some have said I'd be miserable with
forced burnt air
> pushing around the dust. OTOH, the Rinnai is only rated
for 38,000
> btu's.
>
> This is a rental space though I hope to stay here more
than another two
> years.
>
> I have a wood stove upstairs and my allergies are at times
sensitive to
> the burning wood, so I wouldn't consider that as a
solution. Though I
> have a really nice Petit Godin stove that came with me
from elsewhere
> that I'd like to sell....
>
> Alternatively, has anyone decided that it makes sense to
self-install
> less expensive electric units, -- like King, the type my
Bikram yoga
> has, -- and use the gas-installation savings to pay for
electricity?
>
> I'd be most grateful for any kind of advice.
> Thank you, Kathy Forer
>
>
____________________________________________________________
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>
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at melpots@pclink.com.
Kenneth D. Westfall on sun 9 nov 03
Any kind of over head forced air heater like a Reznor is going to be very
noisy like buzzing cheap florescent lights and not very conducive to making
pots. Not too mention the amount of dust your going to stir up poisoning
the air you breath every day. Hot water or electric base board heat would
be nicer but not cheaper to install or operate. You mite find a couple
un-vented radiant wall heater doing a good job as long as your not
sensitive to them being un-vented. There is always the a warm morning or
cozy brand vented heater (with or with out) blowers that may be the easiest
to install and operations to be best.
Kenneth D. Westfall
Pine Hill Pottery
R.D. #2 Box 6AA
Harrisville, WV 26362
kenneth@pinehillpottery.com
http://www.pinehillpottery.com
Kathy Forer on sun 9 nov 03
On Nov 7, 2003, at 10:57 PM, Kathi LeSueur wrote:
> I see no reason why you can't run the pipe yourself. You just need
> black
> pipe. It can be run above ground. Get a strong guy to help with it and
> make sure those joints are tight. I have a direct bent heater in my
> studio that I got from Sears in 1987. I've never had a problem with it.
> I heat a 24 X 24 space. Make sure you soap the connections to check for
> leaks.
This is a very encouraging notion, doing it myself. I think I can even
recall bending pipe once, though it may have been for electrical
conduit. Actually, traditional figurative modeling uses armatures made
of what are probably the very same black pipe and connectors, so I
suppose it's not such an utterly unfamiliar material.
Is your direct vent heater the garage-type with just a fan blowing over
hot air? It seems that would solve some of the slightly damp basement
problem, but one of the contractors scared me about swirling clay dust,
describing the units as basically open flames with a fan spreading the
heat, and that they were very inefficient. Someone else said he uses an
humidifier and that solves the dry air problem. I'm used to city living
and steam heat (it's the best!) so all these other methods are new to
me.
I'm quite concerned about the efficiency and cost.
Last year the ridiculously stupid heat down-from-the-attic system in
the living area cost me minimum $400/month in gas bills and once twice
that and still it was uncomfortable, 10 degrees lower from the knees
down.
Thanks for your suggestion, it's like a bullet there to be bit.
Kathy
Kathy Forer on sun 9 nov 03
On Nov 8, 2003, at 2:07 PM, pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
> Hi Kathy,
Hi Phil,
> How far does the Gas Pipe have to be run? And must it run
> through any walls or ? Is the terminal end of the pipe
> merely on the far side of the room?
Good questions all.
Somehow I need to get the pipe inside from the T-connector outside.
That sounds like something best handled by a professional. Maybe I
should even try the local gas utility company, telling them I need to
get the inlet to the diagonal opposite corner of the house....
> Black Iron Pipe comes in twenty-foot sticks, usualy threaded
> on the ends, and, for the
> diameter you need, is likely about twelve or fifteen Dollars
> a stick at places as carry it for the trade.
The pipe needs to go thirty feet east then forty feet north. Which
would make about $60-75 in pipe, plus fittings. The ceiling is 4" solid
concrete -- I live in someone's 1950's version of a bunker! -- and so
that will take some extra time hanging the pipe, but it's doable. No
walls to get through, other than the outside one.
> The other fittings, some Pipe-Dope, a test gauge, and a
> decent on-off
> Valve should be
> another twenty five bucks or so...
And a friend who's not as scared of electricity or fire as I am ....
> If one of the sticks needs to be cut to length, and then be
> threaded on one end for
> having been cut, to accomidate the final length of the run,
> most 'Home-Improvement' stores offer that service for a
> couple bucks ( if you are nice to them they will not care
> where you bought the pipe...)
There's a good plumbing supply place nearby. They had the french drain
pipe that solved my leakage problems and could probably cut and thread
it, I suppose.
> Unless there need to be a lot of unexpected holes to drill
> in Walls or something, or angles
> to make in the run, a run of even a hundred feet would take
> an honest Man about an hour maybe, if that, to do.
I am so appalled and even hurt at the day-long estimates I've gotten.
If I could do it in two-three hours... The concrete-drilling will add
some time, -- also there are two I-beams to cut through, though I've
gone through them for other things and with the right drill bit it's
not hard, -- but basically it's 70 feet plus a punch through an outer
wall.
> Are you in a Commercial Zoned setting?
>
> If not, you or someone as can do basic things, may be
> allowed by law to just do this yourself.
Residential. I'm thinking I could get a pro in for the beginning and
ending part. Or maybe import an artist-plumber from somewhere else for
the morning.
> It is neither difficult nor mysterious to do.
Hah! That's what you think :)
Thank you, you and Kathi make it sound very do-able.
> I have run full arrangements of Gas pipe in buildings from
> scratch, threading many of the ends and so on, and it is fun
> and easy to do. One observes a few basic safety-quality
> matters, such as a pressure test at the end, and that the
> threads have been respected...maybe fastening the pipe with
> a little clip now and then to some support...dope the
> threads...
Couldn't the whole thing explode?.... ....or leak.....
> None of it is any big deal...and certainly not so big a deal
> as to allow some 'contractor' to rip you off so horribly.
It's embarrassing, humiliating. But it makes some sense that they
wouldn't work for less than a full day even if it took only an hour. I
should try a plumber again rather than a contractor, that's probably
the problem, I think plumbers work by the hour, no minimum.
> I do not like 'contractors' myself...in fact, it is hartd to
> think of any catagory I dislike more.
My recent experience is bringing me around to the same conclusion. When
I first moved here there was a great fellow who did everything and
anything and was very reasonable. Unfortunately he got in trouble and
disappeared. He replaced the two garage doors here with six glass doors
in two and a half days! Built everything from scratch, using the stock
plain doors (without frames) from the local surplus place. It would
have been an impossible project without him.
I've ended up doing much more of this stuff myself than I ever thought
I could do. Fixing the leaking foundation was the biggest hurdle.
> If you feel shy about doing it yourself, perhaps there is a
> friend or neighbor, or a retired
> fellow of practical experience, who would do the deed for
> you at an honest price.
Shy, yes. In abject fear, not quite, anymore. Even if I don't do it all
myself or with a friend, it sounds like planning that route would at
least get me to where I need to be. It's probably the best way to go.
Thank you for your road map.
Kathy
Jersey shore
> Best wishes,
>
> And good luck...
>
>
> Phil
> Las Vegas
Kathi LeSueur on sun 9 nov 03
kef@KFORER.COM wrote:
> On Nov 7, 2003, at 10:57 PM, Kathi LeSueur wrote:
>
>> I see no reason why you can't run the pipe yourself. You just need
>> black
>> pipe. It can be run above ground. Get a strong guy to help with it and
>> make sure those joints are tight. I have a direct bent heater in my
>> studio that I got from Sears in 1987. I've never had a problem with it.
>> I heat a 24 X 24 space. Make sure you soap the connections to check for
>> leaks.
>
>
> This is a very encouraging notion, doing it myself......
>
> Is your direct vent heater the garage-type with just a fan blowing over
> hot air?>>>>>
I don't have a blower on my heater. I didn't want the drafts and air
disturbance that comes with a blower. The heat just radiants from the
heater. It does a fine job for my studio and is very economical.
Kathi
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sun 9 nov 03
Hi Kathy,
Well, certainly, drilling a hole through four-inches of
re-inforced Concrete is something of a chore. Easy enough if
you have the appropriate Drill Bits and a Hammer Drill or
something ( like for 1/2 inch Pipe to go through...)
The rest of your run seems straight-forward and simple
enough.
If you are comeing from a 'tee' on the other side of the
building...one possibility as is a lot of work to do is to
run your Pipe underground to terminate where it is
convenient. This is a big ritual tho', as should be to a
certain considerable depth and to be wrapped in special tape
and other tiresome matters...so, maybe not so good...
Can you go under the four-inch-Concrete, run along under it
from the beginning? Instead of having to drill a hole to go
through it?
In other words, from the 'tee', can you make your run begin
under that Concrete floor as is the ceiling of the Basement?
Another possibility as could be assayed, would be to see
about having a Propane Tank located on the out side of the
building where the Heater shall be. This could even be a
smallish sized one as you disconnect to go and have filled
when it needs it. You could have others in reserve.
I run my Kitchen Stove on a Propane tank...a five gallon
size. I also have a cute little Gas Heater as is a
tote-about, made of Cast Iron and sheet Iron, from the
'twenties, as I may get fired up soon...
Depending on your Heater, that size may last you two weeks
or maybe three I'd guess...maybe less though...not sure. It
lasts me about two months usually of general cooking and
lots of Coffee...one month if I cook a great deal of Soups
or Roasts or something...and, I keep mine in the Kitchen
which one should understand is not well advised at all...!
Sometimes I have thought of locateing it out of doors, and
running some lines...maybe I will...it would be a prudent
thing to do...
Then too, I use a five gallon Propane Tank as well on my (
otherwise) Oxy-Acetylene Torches...and it sits
inside...so...what the hell...whatcha-gunna-do...
Did have one 'pop' years ago...heard it hissing...got outta
bed, carried it out side, set it down, went back to bed...
Oh well...
They should be outside...
Phil
Las Vegas
Kathy Forer on tue 11 nov 03
On Nov 9, 2003, at 3:25 PM, pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
> Hi Kathy,
>
>
> Well, certainly, drilling a hole through four-inches of
> re-inforced Concrete is something of a chore. Easy enough if
> you have the appropriate Drill Bits and a Hammer Drill or
> something ( like for 1/2 inch Pipe to go through...)
Hi Phil,
I wouldn't even think of running it through the concrete! There's so
much going on up there already, a little more exposed structure would
only add to the view. The need for drilling referred to any hanging
supports. I suppose one every 5'-10'?
> The rest of your run seems straight-forward and simple
> enough.
> If you are comeing from a 'tee' on the other side of the
> building...one possibility as is a lot of work to do is to
> run your Pipe underground to terminate where it is
> convenient. This is a big ritual tho', as should be to a
> certain considerable depth and to be wrapped in special tape
> and other tiresome matters...so, maybe not so good...
Maybe that's why one of the estimates was so very high...
> ...
> Another possibility as could be assayed, would be to see
> about having a Propane Tank located on the out side of the
> building where the Heater shall be. This could even be a
> smallish sized one as you disconnect to go and have filled
> when it needs it. You could have others in reserve.
Propane tanks popped into my heat-distressed mind today. It would solve
much of the gas delivery problem. But then there's the issue of the
sheer btu's required to heat the space. The max btu input on the
propane and direct vent models is about 33,000 while my basement calls
for 65,000. Perhaps two $800 unit direct vent propane units might do
the job.
Empire and Cozy make standing units but the ones rated high enough are
too tall for the space....
I don't need warmth, but apparently using half the btus to heat a
larger space will just be a waste. I could screen off portions of the
space, especially about 300sf of storage currently curtained off, maybe
even more, the sink and workshop area... but that's not a big enough
dent and would end up costing in 4x8 wallboards and framing.
> I run my Kitchen Stove on a Propane tank...a five gallon
> size. I also have a cute little Gas Heater as is a
> tote-about, made of Cast Iron and sheet Iron, from the
> 'twenties, as I may get fired up soon...
That sounds better than an electric oil-filled radiator. It would be
nice to get some gas lights as well!
> Depending on your Heater, that size may last you two weeks
> or maybe three I'd guess...maybe less though...not sure. It
> lasts me about two months usually of general cooking and
> lots of Coffee...one month if I cook a great deal of Soups
> or Roasts or something...and, I keep mine in the Kitchen
> which one should understand is not well advised at all...!
> Sometimes I have thought of locateing it out of doors, and
> running some lines...maybe I will...it would be a prudent
> thing to do...
Ideas for Propane Safety http://www.grillman.com/propane_safety.htm
Maybe if I tell the owners of this house (I'm a renter here alas,
therein the crux of the problem) that I'm going to heat the place with
propane space heaters -- this zip code is not a "propane tank area,"
too suburban, it didn't used to be this way -- they might be willing to
share the cost of a proper boiler/heating system. Or they might just
want me gone entirely, what a complaining renter! can't even be happy
being hot from the thighs up with freezing knees and wearing mukluks
and using a heater blower fan while sitting at the computer while
paying $600/month or more for gas and electric! This bunker house is so
poorly heated, I sometimes despair of ever being comfortable. And now
the wood stove chimney is backed up.... Time for an iron ball and
sweeper but more likely it will be a local service and nothing here
costs less than a hundred dollars. Except a milkshake. Last year I
tried a kerosene heater and didn't like it then had to put the unused
carboy of kerosene outside as the untouched sitting odor alone
infiltrated the space....
I wore sweaters and a down vest in the studio last year through January
but it was way too cold after that and I didn't want to get my hands
wet with clay. Working in wax was a pretty good at substitute but I
work too slowly when it's cold. New Jersey, USA, in February last year:
http://homepage.mac.com/kef/photos/PhotoAlbum15.html (My house is
behind the owner's garage)
> Then too, I use a five gallon Propane Tank as well on my (
> otherwise) Oxy-Acetylene Torches...and it sits
> inside...so...what the hell...whatcha-gunna-do...
The quart or liter ones are very handy too.
> Did have one 'pop' years ago...heard it hissing...got outta
> bed, carried it out side, set it down, went back to bed...
and waited for the explosion?
:)
Thank you for your suggestions and support. Of course it's all "worth
it" and "inevitable' but sometimes there's so much, as you say,
'ritual' involved.
Kathy
in NJ
> Oh well...
>
> They should be outside...
>
>
> Phil
> Las Vegas
Kathy Forer on tue 11 nov 03
On Nov 9, 2003, at 1:22 AM, Kenneth D. Westfall wrote:
> Any kind of over head forced air heater like a Reznor is going to be
> very
> noisy like buzzing cheap florescent lights and not very conducive to
> making
> pots. Not too mention the amount of dust your going to stir up
> poisoning
> the air you breath every day. Hot water or electric base board heat
> would
> be nicer but not cheaper to install or operate. You mite find a couple
> un-vented radiant wall heater doing a good job as long as your not
> sensitive to them being un-vented. There is always the a warm morning
> or
> cozy brand vented heater (with or with out) blowers that may be the
> easiest
> to install and operations to be best.
Your description of what the Reznor is and does finally makes sense to
me.
Radiant heat is a good suggestion. The nearby antique store guy uses
ventless radiant heat and keeps telling me that's what I should get,
though his shop is only about 20' x 30'. Alas, I looked all through the
Cozy catalog and even talked with Jim in Kentucky and found one that
was too tall and one too small. And then the local supplier told me a
shorter tall one, the DVCFWF, would end up just like a garage heater as
it has a blower fan.
Warm Morning is out of business and parts are hard to find. But they
seem fairly plentiful on the used merchandise sites and if I manage to
do the piping myself that might be the way to go.
Unless there's a stronger short vented unit, I'll have to get either
two of the current largest size 33000btus units which would end up
being very costly (what I'm trying to avoid...) or close off some the
space, probably not a bad idea, just not one I like and maybe my only
option. Hot water heating is what I would have done throughout the
house if I'd had the option.
It's 1100sf and that's the problem. The radiant heaters are terrific
for up to 600sf, but the heat would get lost in a larger space. It
seems only units with blowers can output enough heat alone to take care
of the space. ...So it's either deafness and asphyxiation or fingerless
gloves and pocket warmers. (If I didn't have allergies, I wouldn't
hesitate going for noisy, hot asphyxiation.)
I know there's an appropriate solution somewhere. Thank you for your
excellent guidance.
One last check: Cozy's Vented Console Heaters
http://www.cozyheaters.com/vch.htm have high enough btu's but neither
Jim in Louisville nor John at the local supplier recommended them and I
didn't even question why. hmmm. Tomorrow!
Kathy Forer
http://homepage.mac.com/kef/
> Kenneth D. Westfall
> Pine Hill Pottery
> R.D. #2 Box 6AA
> Harrisville, WV 26362
> kenneth@pinehillpottery.com
> http://www.pinehillpottery.com
>
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