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stamping and signing pots

updated thu 18 dec 03

 

David Hendley on mon 15 dec 03


It's interesting that folks can have such strong opinions about
how potters mark and identify their work.
I have always gone for the "middle ground".

At one extreme is the initial stamp or 'mark' crowd. I just
can't understand this. It means that only a handful of people
will every know who made the piece. I know about
oriental traditions, but I am English-Scottish-Swedish-American,
and 'the unknown crafsman' tradition is just something I've
read about. I guess it does make the buyer feel like she
is part of a special elite group that knows what the
initials mean. Good snob appeal, but impersonal compared
to a handwritten signature.

I also don't understand the illegible signature, and I have
been frustrated by trying to read hundreds. Often time I
can't even tell which way is up or down. While looking at
pottery in people's homes I have asked them what the
signature says, and many times, even though they bought
the piece from the maker, they can't remember the name,
and the scrawl on the bottom is no help.

At the other extreme, I do think that a stamp that is
thinly-veiled advertising cheapens the piece. I would be
horrified to see a website address, e-mail address, mailing
address, or phone number on the bottom of a well-made
pot. 'For reorders call..............'.
I also think a stamp impressed into the clay is
more classy than a rubber stamped ink message.

On the bottoms of my pots, you will see the name of my
shop and my town, state, and country impressed into the clay
with a metal stamp, and a legible hand written signature.
I have been doing this since the '70's, and was influenced
to settle on this system by John Glick, my favorite
potter of the era. He marked his pieces with the shop
name stamped and the signature written by hand.
Stamping the name of the shop and the town also has
a long history and tradition in American pottery.
I love old jugs that have the name of the pottery right
on the shoulder of the pot.

Mel, Texas is a big place - Lubbock is about 500 miles
from me, half as far as Minnesota.
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com

David Hendley on tue 16 dec 03


As I started my Clayart message on the subject yesterday:

>It's interesting that folks can have such strong opinions about
>how potters mark and identify their work.
>I have always gone for the "middle ground".

Wow, that was certainly demonstrated by Lee's hostile-sounding
point-by-point refutation of my homegrown Texan preferences.

Interestingly, among today's Clayart e-mails, I also had one form
Sherman Hall at Ceramics Monthly. I don't think he would mind
me sharing an excerpt:

>We're starting something new:
>Ceramics Monthly is going to begin including the marks and/or
>signatures of ceramists in feature articles. To that end, we would
>very much appreciate it if you could forward an illustration of how
>you sign or mark your work.

Further confirmation that the way you identify your work is
indeed important. This sounds like an interesting new feature
for CM. Look for my next CM article to be accompanied by
my 'Maydelle, Texas, U.S.A.' stamp.

David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com

Lee Love on tue 16 dec 03


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Hendley"

> It's interesting that folks can have such strong opinions about
> how potters mark and identify their work.

Like I said, "What ever floats your boat."

> At one extreme is the initial stamp or 'mark' crowd. I just
> can't understand this. It means that only a handful of people
> will every know who made the piece.

Not really. There's probably thousands of potter's or kiln
stamps here in Japan, and in Europe too, that are known by many more people
than signature signed pottery in America. It is true of painting,
caligraphy and other 2 D arts in Asia. While a person might sign a
caligraphic signature, the real proof of identity is in the stamp. One
interesting thing I've noticed on woodblock prints, is that modern
artists/craftmen will often sign in pencil, but stamp with a red seal.
Seals have an old tradition in Europe too, if we just pause to realize that
there _was_ history before we were born.

>I know about
> oriental traditions, but I am English-Scottish-Swedish-American,
> and 'the unknown crafsman' tradition is just something I've
> read about.

I'm sure what you say about your knowledge is true. I speak from
direct experience. Stamps have a long tradition in the crafts in the
West. There is a long history of anonymous craftsmen in America and in
Europe. It is probably the single biggest misconception to think that
what Mingei explored about tradtional craft is limited to non-W.A.S.P.
culture. Yanagi's initial inspiration was the work of Blake, Whitman and
Rodin. It was exactly out of his cross-cultural perspective that the
philosophy was born. For example, my favorite potter of the '70s, Shoji
Hamada, learned a lot about his approach to craft from the crafts movement
he saw when he lived in England.
In a catalog from a recent show at the Messe museum here in
Mashiko titled, "Journey to St. Ives, England: Kinship Beyond East and
West. Bernard Leach and Shoji Hamada", it speaks about how Hamada was
impressed when he visited the homes and workshops of Dreolien Pomodore,
Ethel Mairet, and also the craft community developed by Eric Gill in
Ditchling. These folks were the inheretors of the ideas of William Morris.
Hamada really didn't think to move to Mashiko and build a
compound out of the local farm houses and storage buildings until after he
saw the integrated life that the British craftmovement folks lived in
Ditchling and St. Ives. (There is no ISBN in this catalog. But if
folks are interested, I'd be willing to procure this book and mail it at
cost. I first have to see if it is still availabe. Write me privately.)
So Hamada, Leach, Yanagi and the rest of the folks who developed
the mingei movement were very cosmopolition and would laugh an such a notion
that an English-Scottish-Swedish-American individual could not learn from
their past (before they were born. ) We've been swaggering way too much in
America of late. We are too ready to focus on our differences.

Hey, don't you ever watch Antique Road Show? Friends in
Minneapolis tape it for Jean so I see a couple every month. There is all
sorts of Western craft, from pottery to silver, ,watches, jewelery, etc,
that is identified by a stamp mark. You can buy identification books on
the subject. They are much more frequent on craft than signatures are.

> I guess it does make the buyer feel like she
> is part of a special elite group that knows what the
> initials mean. Good snob appeal, but impersonal compared
> to a handwritten signature.

You are funny. You crack me up. You say you are "middle of the
road" and then you dis' people who don't do what YOU do. *Haha!* We
always tread on shakey ground when we question another person's motivation
(heck, if you are honest with yourself, you know that it is usually
difficult to figure our your own motivation.) There is probably more snob
appeal in signing work: making work seem more like painting than craft.

> I also don't understand the illegible signature, and I have
> been frustrated by trying to read hundreds.

This is why a stamp is a more consistant form of identification.
Here in Japan, they are prefered identification for legal and financial
transactions. While a person's signature can vary day to day, you can
examine a stamp microscopically, just like matching a typewriter's keys to
the letters it strikes and have positive identification.

> At the other extreme, I do think that a stamp that is
> thinly-veiled advertising cheapens the piece. I would be
> horrified to see a website address, e-mail address, mailing
> address, or phone number

On your high horse... Take a look here:
http://www.wendtpottery.com/history.htm I think this is tastefully done
and fits right in with traditional American ceramic work.

>
> On the bottoms of my pots, you will see the name of my
> shop and my town, state, and country impressed into the clay

A phone number or email address would be a lot cleaner. Show us
some photos of your stamping and we can judge for ourselves.

The real proof is in the puddin', as they say. The work should
speak for the maker.

It probably makes the most sense to put a signature on "clay art",
or pots made for the gallery. It always seems to be a little out of place
on souvenir work, IMHO.

--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://Mashiko.org
Web Log (click on recent date):
http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/calendar

Hendrix, Taylor J on tue 16 dec 03


Howdy you fussy bunch,

I'm not so sure I see the difference between the stamp Lee is talking
about and the signature David is referring to. Both are recognized
forms of identification. In fact Lee, you make the point regarding the
legal signature in Japan. Not sure I'm seeing the difference (apart
from the time it would take to stamp v. signing every pot). Pots are
stamped in Japan and so are 2-D art--no pretension there. 2-D art is
signed (usually) in this little neck of the west and post
are....well....still making up our minds--no pretension there either.
Stamps don't mean so much to us here, signatures do. Try telling a
Taiwanese why he has to decide on ONE way to sign his checks. Tell him
that someone may not accept a check with his name written in characters.
Why? We don't get it. Oh, you got a signature stamp? Can't use it
here. Why? We don't get it.

Dale Neese stamps his pots. Made him a nice one. Guards it fiercely.
Let me look at it once, but he sure as heck didn't let go of it. Why?
Because that was his pot signature and if he lost it, he would have to
make a new one, different. What is his stamp? I can't describe it. It
has no letters and no (as far as I can tell) language symbol. Looks a
bit like an ankh with extra legs, but....

Then there's Hank in OR who stamps his pots too. He uses an old type
face 'H'. Now that be familiar to us here in the west. 'H' for hotel,
right? But wait! I have an 'H' stamp too. Bet you wouldn't need to
turn over each of our pots to tell who made it though, would you? Nope.

Dave stamps his pots too. Seen them hanging in his shop. By gawd, he
does it like the old fogies did it before he was a'born. Oh yeah, and
he indorses it.

Did a little experiment when I was at David Hendley's. He got down
several mugs from clayarters and I was to tell him who made them. I
didn't want to cheat and look for a chop/sig. I got 3 out of 4
(Clennell had several tourtured examples in the group) right on the
money. Didn't really need to see the bottom of those. Distinctive mugs
all. There was RR's temouku (did I spell that right?), Issenberg's
drippy ash, and Clennell's handle with cup attached (shino baby).
Double signed pots if you ask me.

So what's the difference? Not sure, but I do know that if I want to do
an internet search, "david hendley (no dot over the 'i' when he signs
it) is going to get a bunch of hits, "H" is going to get way too many
hits to be useful, and a leggy ankh is an impossibility to search for.

You stamp it. Tells me where it was made (perhaps), who made it. If
you know your stuff, symbols and signs are no problem.

You sign it. Tell me where it was made (perhaps), who made it. If you
know your stuff, a name finds you the potter/pottery.

Wendt is the least ambiguous of the lot. Got the phone number right
there. Call it and you can talk to the actual maker. How many kiln
stamps going to get you on the phone with the potter, retired foreman,
pottery lackey, stone grinder?

What's the difference?

If you're going to work that 50 mile circle, just holler. They'll find
you. If you're sending your babies out into the cold world, better send
'em with a note.

Taylor, in Waco

Lee Love on wed 17 dec 03


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Hendley"

> >We're starting something new:
> >Ceramics Monthly is going to begin including the marks and/or
> >signatures of ceramists in feature articles. To that end, we would
> >very much appreciate it if you could forward an illustration of how
> >you sign or mark your work.

I wonder if they'd accept Hamada's signed box top. ;^)

--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://Mashiko.org
Web Log (click on recent date):
http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/calendar

Lee Love on wed 17 dec 03


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hendrix, Taylor J"

>I'm not so sure I see the difference between the stamp Lee is talking
>about and the signature David is referring to.

Exactly my point. I was explaining why David's distinctions were
groundless. :^) We don't need to dis' people that don't do it exactly our
way.

"The Unknown Craftsman" is not necessarily about how we sign our work
today. All the individuals in the original Mingei group, as well as their
immediate students, all did it differently. My favorite in the bunch,
Shiko Munakata, both signed his name in English script and stamped his
prints. I saw a film on T.V. of him the other day, carving a wooden plate
with great ferocity, chanting aloud with his Japanese accent, the artist he
tried to emulate: Van Gogh, (what you heard was "Gogh, Gogh, Gogh, Gogh!"
He also once said. "I want to be the Japanese Picasso!" He is the most
well known and loved of the original group, probably the most famous modern
artist in Japan. We just don't seem to understand all this back home.

If you take your inspiration from traditional folkcraft as I
do, mingei is about what work inspires us as modern studio potters.

--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://Mashiko.org
Web Log (click on recent date):
http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/calendar