John Rodgers on thu 18 dec 03
Gayle,
I think Mel has used one of these wheels and had good things to say
about it. You might try and get him to comment.
The most recent supplement to the Axner catalog has the wheel, with all
the new attachments shown in it, including the juggering arm The idea of
jiggering is very appealing to people for a variety of reasons, and
especially to people who have trouble with their hands, such as
arthritis. The jigger arm is morerately expensive, but won't break the
bank. The fly in the ointment are the attachments that must fit to the
wheel shaft in the place of the wheelhead. There are typically three
different size chuck heads needed for the jigger molds, and these babies
aren't cheap. They are cast aluminanum machined to a certain depth and
taper, and are threaded to screw down on an adapter that fits to the
wheel shaft. These special jigger chuck heads start at $500 and go up
from there depending on the size of jigger molds you plan to use. In
addition to the jigger chuck heads you also need some additional
machined plates of sizes to match the jigger chucks. All in all you will
have several thousand dollars tied up.
I have built a jiggering setup for my Brent CXC. I like it better than
the Axner jigger set up. There is a way to get around the high cost of
those machined aluminum bucket heads, but it involves a lot of plaster
work and the handling of large heavy pieces. But what the hey, I figure
a little plaster work is worth it.
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
claybair wrote:
>I am thinking to buy a new wheel.
>Usually I would try before I buy but
>do not know anyone locally with an Axner M-600 wheel.
>I recall the thread a while back when there was some
>issue with wobbly wheelhead, cords or how they were
>packed and shipped. Axner is in Fla. I am in WA.
>What has recent experience been?
>Oh yes... I am very short (as Mel can verify) is this wheel
>comfortable for the vertically challenged (5' if I stand really tall)?
>
>Also I am moving into making dish sets and wonder
>what opinions are on using a jigger to make uniform
>dishware. Has anyone used the jigger arm attachment
>on the Axner wheel?
>
>I know I could measure and use various techniques
>to ensure preciseness of sizes but also know there would be variations.
>
>I would design the plate platen and each would be decorated
>with my slip and carve technique. So do you think I would be caving into
>technology and selling my artistic soul if I use a jigger arm?
>Thanks all for your input.
>
>Gayle Bair - Saw the 3rd Lord of the Rings movie last night..... utterly
>fabulous!!!!
>This morning I watched testimony from families of the Green river serial
>killer's murder victims...... utterly heart wrenching and tragic!!!!!
>It is hard to believe such evil exists ... it's easier to keep them in
>fiction and fantasy.
>Bainbridge Island, WA
>http://claybair.com
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
claybair on thu 18 dec 03
I am thinking to buy a new wheel.
Usually I would try before I buy but
do not know anyone locally with an Axner M-600 wheel.
I recall the thread a while back when there was some
issue with wobbly wheelhead, cords or how they were
packed and shipped. Axner is in Fla. I am in WA.
What has recent experience been?
Oh yes... I am very short (as Mel can verify) is this wheel
comfortable for the vertically challenged (5' if I stand really tall)?
Also I am moving into making dish sets and wonder
what opinions are on using a jigger to make uniform
dishware. Has anyone used the jigger arm attachment
on the Axner wheel?
I know I could measure and use various techniques
to ensure preciseness of sizes but also know there would be variations.
I would design the plate platen and each would be decorated
with my slip and carve technique. So do you think I would be caving into
technology and selling my artistic soul if I use a jigger arm?
Thanks all for your input.
Gayle Bair - Saw the 3rd Lord of the Rings movie last night..... utterly
fabulous!!!!
This morning I watched testimony from families of the Green river serial
killer's murder victims...... utterly heart wrenching and tragic!!!!!
It is hard to believe such evil exists ... it's easier to keep them in
fiction and fantasy.
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
Tom Sawyer on fri 19 dec 03
Claybair,
I always feel obliged to give a disclaimer when talking about Axner products
as I am a "part owner". Having said that, I am not actively engaged in the
day to day business and will now speak as a person who has been doing
pottery for 25 years off and on and more on since I retired a few years ago.
I sold in 3 wheels and an old slab press of other makes about 6-8 weeks ago
and bought the top of the line Axner wheel with a 1.5 hp motor and an Axner
slab press. I am delighted with my decision. The wheel is the quietest and
smoothest running wheel I've ever used and I love the slab press. I
purchased the jigger arm and spent this Wend at the store learning its use.
It is fairly straight forward and with very little effort easily learnable
but as I am somewhat mechanically impaired I am glad that I had my private
lesson as it will save me considerable time. I found the arm quite sturdy
and detected no noticeable wobble. With 10 children between our families and
everyone screeming for dinner ware, I thought this might be my way out. I
purchased the 1.5 hp motor not because I think or Howard said it is
necessary teo have a larger motor for jiggering but it just seemed to me to
give me more flexibility if I get serious about jiggering and want to try
some bigger pieces. I made 5 nice dinner plates in maybe 30-45 minutes and
for a first time trial, I was pleased and have no doubt this time will be
dramatically improved with just a little practice. There are a couple of
different approaches that are being developed and I'll have to play with
them before I decide which best fits my situation. This jiggering arm is a
nice addition for me personally as I wouldn't fit the definition of a
production potter.
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of claybair
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 5:48 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Axner Wheel & jigger arm
I am thinking to buy a new wheel.
Usually I would try before I buy but
do not know anyone locally with an Axner M-600 wheel.
I recall the thread a while back when there was some issue with wobbly
wheelhead, cords or how they were packed and shipped. Axner is in Fla. I am
in WA.
What has recent experience been?
Oh yes... I am very short (as Mel can verify) is this wheel comfortable for
the vertically challenged (5' if I stand really tall)?
Also I am moving into making dish sets and wonder what opinions are on using
a jigger to make uniform dishware. Has anyone used the jigger arm attachment
on the Axner wheel?
I know I could measure and use various techniques to ensure preciseness of
sizes but also know there would be variations.
I would design the plate platen and each would be decorated with my slip and
carve technique. So do you think I would be caving into technology and
selling my artistic soul if I use a jigger arm?
Thanks all for your input.
Gayle Bair - Saw the 3rd Lord of the Rings movie last night..... utterly
fabulous!!!!
This morning I watched testimony from families of the Green river serial
killer's murder victims...... utterly heart wrenching and tragic!!!!!
It is hard to believe such evil exists ... it's easier to keep them in
fiction and fantasy.
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Tom Sawyer on fri 19 dec 03
John,
There are actually 2-3 different systems for jiggering. The cheapest consist
of some plaster batts that can be purchased or made, the jigger arm and a
template that fits on the arm. These systems [there are 2] are inexpensive
and will allow for the jiggering of bowls, plates etc. As they are under
development at the present time, I would expect more forms and options to
soon be available. The full blown system involoving the bucket like
attachments to the wheel head are definitely more expensive. I did purchase
a bucket attachment a few days back but haven't used it yet. I did however
use the inexpensive system and was quite pleased with some dinner plates I
made my first time out. As I wrote an earlier reply today on a similar
issue, I would refer readers to that message and the disclaimer.
Thomas Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of John Rodgers
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:05 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Axner Wheel & jigger arm
Gayle,
I think Mel has used one of these wheels and had good things to say about
it. You might try and get him to comment.
The most recent supplement to the Axner catalog has the wheel, with all the
new attachments shown in it, including the juggering arm The idea of
jiggering is very appealing to people for a variety of reasons, and
especially to people who have trouble with their hands, such as arthritis.
The jigger arm is morerately expensive, but won't break the bank. The fly in
the ointment are the attachments that must fit to the wheel shaft in the
place of the wheelhead. There are typically three different size chuck heads
needed for the jigger molds, and these babies aren't cheap. They are cast
aluminanum machined to a certain depth and taper, and are threaded to screw
down on an adapter that fits to the wheel shaft. These special jigger chuck
heads start at $500 and go up from there depending on the size of jigger
molds you plan to use. In addition to the jigger chuck heads you also need
some additional machined plates of sizes to match the jigger chucks. All in
all you will have several thousand dollars tied up.
I have built a jiggering setup for my Brent CXC. I like it better than the
Axner jigger set up. There is a way to get around the high cost of those
machined aluminum bucket heads, but it involves a lot of plaster work and
the handling of large heavy pieces. But what the hey, I figure a little
plaster work is worth it.
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
claybair wrote:
>I am thinking to buy a new wheel.
>Usually I would try before I buy but
>do not know anyone locally with an Axner M-600 wheel.
>I recall the thread a while back when there was some issue with wobbly
>wheelhead, cords or how they were packed and shipped. Axner is in Fla.
>I am in WA.
>What has recent experience been?
>Oh yes... I am very short (as Mel can verify) is this wheel comfortable
>for the vertically challenged (5' if I stand really tall)?
>
>Also I am moving into making dish sets and wonder what opinions are on
>using a jigger to make uniform dishware. Has anyone used the jigger arm
>attachment on the Axner wheel?
>
>I know I could measure and use various techniques to ensure preciseness
>of sizes but also know there would be variations.
>
>I would design the plate platen and each would be decorated with my
>slip and carve technique. So do you think I would be caving into
>technology and selling my artistic soul if I use a jigger arm?
>Thanks all for your input.
>
>Gayle Bair - Saw the 3rd Lord of the Rings movie last night.....
>utterly fabulous!!!!
>This morning I watched testimony from families of the Green river
>serial killer's murder victims...... utterly heart wrenching and
tragic!!!!!
>It is hard to believe such evil exists ... it's easier to keep them in
>fiction and fantasy.
>Bainbridge Island, WA
>http://claybair.com
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>_______ Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
John Rodgers on fri 19 dec 03
Tom, I don't mean to appear to be knocking the Axner products. I'm not.
I have bought a good bit of stuff from Axner and have never had a
complaint. As far as jiggering goes, my experience has been in a
production house using a commercial jigger setup, and the machined
jigger chucks are definitely the way to go for serious production. But,
fact is, that approach is expensive, and one has to really be able to
justify the expense. But if high output is the goal, it's the way to go.
As for simpler systems you mentioned, I'm not sure where you were going
with that, but I do use some of the Pure and Simple Bat Molds and do
some work on them. Still, it's not quite the same.
As far as the system that I am working on now is an adaptation of the
drive key from the Pure and Simple Bat system, and the application of
some concepts put forth by Donald Frith in his definitive moldmaking
book "Moldmaking for Ceramics." In the book, he provides pictures and
drawings of how to set up a plaster wheel with a jigger chuck adaptation
made from USG Ultracal 30. Ultracal is dirt cheap compared to machined
aluminum jigger chucks. Granted, the set up is not for high volume. For
that one needs the metal jigger chucks. But for me, and my limited work,
it's just fine.
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
Tom Sawyer wrote:
>John,
>
>There are actually 2-3 different systems for jiggering. The cheapest consist
>of some plaster batts that can be purchased or made, the jigger arm and a
>template that fits on the arm. These systems [there are 2] are inexpensive
>and will allow for the jiggering of bowls, plates etc. As they are under
>development at the present time, I would expect more forms and options to
>soon be available. The full blown system involoving the bucket like
>attachments to the wheel head are definitely more expensive. I did purchase
>a bucket attachment a few days back but haven't used it yet. I did however
>use the inexpensive system and was quite pleased with some dinner plates I
>made my first time out. As I wrote an earlier reply today on a similar
>issue, I would refer readers to that message and the disclaimer.
>
>Thomas Sawyer
>tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of John Rodgers
>Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:05 PM
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Axner Wheel & jigger arm
>
>Gayle,
>
>I think Mel has used one of these wheels and had good things to say about
>it. You might try and get him to comment.
>
>The most recent supplement to the Axner catalog has the wheel, with all the
>new attachments shown in it, including the juggering arm The idea of
>jiggering is very appealing to people for a variety of reasons, and
>especially to people who have trouble with their hands, such as arthritis.
>The jigger arm is morerately expensive, but won't break the bank. The fly in
>the ointment are the attachments that must fit to the wheel shaft in the
>place of the wheelhead. There are typically three different size chuck heads
>needed for the jigger molds, and these babies aren't cheap. They are cast
>aluminanum machined to a certain depth and taper, and are threaded to screw
>down on an adapter that fits to the wheel shaft. These special jigger chuck
>heads start at $500 and go up from there depending on the size of jigger
>molds you plan to use. In addition to the jigger chuck heads you also need
>some additional machined plates of sizes to match the jigger chucks. All in
>all you will have several thousand dollars tied up.
>
>I have built a jiggering setup for my Brent CXC. I like it better than the
>Axner jigger set up. There is a way to get around the high cost of those
>machined aluminum bucket heads, but it involves a lot of plaster work and
>the handling of large heavy pieces. But what the hey, I figure a little
>plaster work is worth it.
>
>Regards,
>
>John Rodgers
>Chelsea, AL
>
>claybair wrote:
>
>
>
>>I am thinking to buy a new wheel.
>>Usually I would try before I buy but
>>do not know anyone locally with an Axner M-600 wheel.
>>I recall the thread a while back when there was some issue with wobbly
>>wheelhead, cords or how they were packed and shipped. Axner is in Fla.
>>I am in WA.
>>What has recent experience been?
>>Oh yes... I am very short (as Mel can verify) is this wheel comfortable
>>for the vertically challenged (5' if I stand really tall)?
>>
>>Also I am moving into making dish sets and wonder what opinions are on
>>using a jigger to make uniform dishware. Has anyone used the jigger arm
>>attachment on the Axner wheel?
>>
>>I know I could measure and use various techniques to ensure preciseness
>>of sizes but also know there would be variations.
>>
>>I would design the plate platen and each would be decorated with my
>>slip and carve technique. So do you think I would be caving into
>>technology and selling my artistic soul if I use a jigger arm?
>>Thanks all for your input.
>>
>>Gayle Bair - Saw the 3rd Lord of the Rings movie last night.....
>>utterly fabulous!!!!
>>This morning I watched testimony from families of the Green river
>>serial killer's murder victims...... utterly heart wrenching and
>>
>>
>tragic!!!!!
>
>
>>It is hard to believe such evil exists ... it's easier to keep them in
>>fiction and fantasy.
>>Bainbridge Island, WA
>>http://claybair.com
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________________
>>_______ Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>>
>>
>melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________
>__
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
Charnley McCrorey on sat 20 dec 03
So do you think I would be caving into
>technology and selling my artistic soul if I use a jigger arm?
Considering the number of physical challenges I have I personally think that a tool is a tool though others may differ. The real issue is whether or not you will be satisfied with the results. Is it important to you that you be uniform and the like? I think that is the most important question. It isn't like your casting (And don't anyone rage at me about casting, I cast as I can not throw any longer due to my shoulder but the feel of the finished product is completely different). The only person you truly need to satisfy is yourself. It is still thrown ware IMHO. Your work is beautiful, it will still have your essence in it. So it becomes entirely about how you feel about what your making and whether you feel like your cheating or it is just another tool to you.
Joyous Holidays.
Charnley
Laughing Lion Productions
Making silly little dragons to make people smile
Tom Sawyer on sat 20 dec 03
John,
Never entered my mind that you were knocking Axner's. Your right the
machined jiggered chucks are expensive but if you have a good wheel and are
so inclined buying the chuck and the jigger arm that attaches to the wheel
is way cheaper than buying a jiggering machine. The two systems that I
referred to are the Pure and Simple Bat System and the Hydro Bat System.
These consist of a variety of shaped plates or bowls plaster bats, for
example, over which you drape clay and use a jiggering arm attached to the
wheel to finish the final shape; this is what I referenced as inexpensive.
Your absolutely correct that its not the same thing as a full jiggering
system. By the way I just finished reading Frith's book - quite good.
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of John Rodgers
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 7:51 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Axner Wheel & jigger arm
Tom, I don't mean to appear to be knocking the Axner products. I'm not.
I have bought a good bit of stuff from Axner and have never had a complaint.
As far as jiggering goes, my experience has been in a production house using
a commercial jigger setup, and the machined jigger chucks are definitely the
way to go for serious production. But, fact is, that approach is expensive,
and one has to really be able to justify the expense. But if high output is
the goal, it's the way to go.
As for simpler systems you mentioned, I'm not sure where you were going with
that, but I do use some of the Pure and Simple Bat Molds and do some work on
them. Still, it's not quite the same.
As far as the system that I am working on now is an adaptation of the drive
key from the Pure and Simple Bat system, and the application of some
concepts put forth by Donald Frith in his definitive moldmaking book
"Moldmaking for Ceramics." In the book, he provides pictures and drawings of
how to set up a plaster wheel with a jigger chuck adaptation made from USG
Ultracal 30. Ultracal is dirt cheap compared to machined aluminum jigger
chucks. Granted, the set up is not for high volume. For that one needs the
metal jigger chucks. But for me, and my limited work, it's just fine.
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
Tom Sawyer wrote:
>John,
>
>There are actually 2-3 different systems for jiggering. The cheapest
>consist of some plaster batts that can be purchased or made, the jigger
>arm and a template that fits on the arm. These systems [there are 2]
>are inexpensive and will allow for the jiggering of bowls, plates etc.
>As they are under development at the present time, I would expect more
>forms and options to soon be available. The full blown system
>involoving the bucket like attachments to the wheel head are definitely
>more expensive. I did purchase a bucket attachment a few days back but
>haven't used it yet. I did however use the inexpensive system and was
>quite pleased with some dinner plates I made my first time out. As I
>wrote an earlier reply today on a similar issue, I would refer readers to
that message and the disclaimer.
>
>Thomas Sawyer
>tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of John
>Rodgers
>Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:05 PM
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Axner Wheel & jigger arm
>
>Gayle,
>
>I think Mel has used one of these wheels and had good things to say
>about it. You might try and get him to comment.
>
>The most recent supplement to the Axner catalog has the wheel, with all
>the new attachments shown in it, including the juggering arm The idea
>of jiggering is very appealing to people for a variety of reasons, and
>especially to people who have trouble with their hands, such as arthritis.
>The jigger arm is morerately expensive, but won't break the bank. The
>fly in the ointment are the attachments that must fit to the wheel
>shaft in the place of the wheelhead. There are typically three
>different size chuck heads needed for the jigger molds, and these
>babies aren't cheap. They are cast aluminanum machined to a certain
>depth and taper, and are threaded to screw down on an adapter that fits
>to the wheel shaft. These special jigger chuck heads start at $500 and
>go up from there depending on the size of jigger molds you plan to use.
>In addition to the jigger chuck heads you also need some additional
>machined plates of sizes to match the jigger chucks. All in all you will
have several thousand dollars tied up.
>
>I have built a jiggering setup for my Brent CXC. I like it better than
>the Axner jigger set up. There is a way to get around the high cost of
>those machined aluminum bucket heads, but it involves a lot of plaster
>work and the handling of large heavy pieces. But what the hey, I figure
>a little plaster work is worth it.
>
>Regards,
>
>John Rodgers
>Chelsea, AL
>
>claybair wrote:
>
>
>
>>I am thinking to buy a new wheel.
>>Usually I would try before I buy but
>>do not know anyone locally with an Axner M-600 wheel.
>>I recall the thread a while back when there was some issue with wobbly
>>wheelhead, cords or how they were packed and shipped. Axner is in Fla.
>>I am in WA.
>>What has recent experience been?
>>Oh yes... I am very short (as Mel can verify) is this wheel
>>comfortable for the vertically challenged (5' if I stand really tall)?
>>
>>Also I am moving into making dish sets and wonder what opinions are on
>>using a jigger to make uniform dishware. Has anyone used the jigger
>>arm attachment on the Axner wheel?
>>
>>I know I could measure and use various techniques to ensure
>>preciseness of sizes but also know there would be variations.
>>
>>I would design the plate platen and each would be decorated with my
>>slip and carve technique. So do you think I would be caving into
>>technology and selling my artistic soul if I use a jigger arm?
>>Thanks all for your input.
>>
>>Gayle Bair - Saw the 3rd Lord of the Rings movie last night.....
>>utterly fabulous!!!!
>>This morning I watched testimony from families of the Green river
>>serial killer's murder victims...... utterly heart wrenching and
>>
>>
>tragic!!!!!
>
>
>>It is hard to believe such evil exists ... it's easier to keep them in
>>fiction and fantasy.
>>Bainbridge Island, WA
>>http://claybair.com
>>
>>______________________________________________________________________
>>_ _______ Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>>
>>
>melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>_____
>__
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>_______ Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
| |
|
