Kathryn Kirby on thu 1 jan 04
I just had my work photographed professionally. I have read lots of posts
about doing this yourself, but I want to concentrate on my pottery and not
photography skills...I took about 20 pieces to the photographer's studio and he did
both slides and digital pictures. He charged by the hour, which is more
standard than by the piece I think. Good "craft" photographers charge somewhere
in the vicinity of $125-150 per hour, at least in cities I've lived in...and
this particular session took 2 hours...what do other people think about that?
Was that fair, or was I ripped off? By the way, the slides look beautiful, and
I am going to apply to some juried shows and upmarket craft fairs...combine
business with travel etc etc....and Happy New Year to all you clay dudes and
dudettes!
Kat Kirby
Kat4clay@aol.com
Allyson May on fri 2 jan 04
Hey Kat,
I don't know if you were ripped off or not but the photographers in my =
area charge between $150 and $200 just to walk thru the studio door. =
This does not include the cost of their film which is an extra charge. =
These prices blew me away! I have found one young man who does great =
work and charges $15 per piece. You get three slides of each piece. =
You bring the pieces in after normal studio hours, he shoots the photos, =
and the next day he has your slides ready. This works great for me =
because I don't usually have large numbers of pieces to be photographed =
so its cheaper by the piece. I have also received permission from the =
local university to shoot my work in their slide studio (they have one =
set up strictly for ceramic students). I knew absolutely nothing about =
photography. I received a little coaching from a local photographer and =
then used my own 35mm camera. The slides were good enough to enter in =
juried competitions. With a little investigating you may find a way to =
get cheaper slides without sacrificing quality.
Peace,
Allyson May
Stoney Creek Pottery
Bloomington, Indiana
Snail Scott on fri 2 jan 04
At 06:04 PM 1/1/04 EST, you wrote:
>...Good "craft" photographers charge somewhere
>in the vicinity of $125-150 per hour, at least in cities I've lived in...and
>this particular session took 2 hours...
>Was that fair, or was I ripped off?
It's higher than I've ever paid, but I wouldn't be
surprised if that sort of cost varies regionally.
If you got really good slides of 20 pieces, and it
only took two hours of your time in addition to
the cash, I'd say you got something worthwhile.
Could you have gotten it cheaper? Maybe, or maybe
not. If that's the going rate where you live, then
it's not a matter of being 'ripped off', it's a
simple choice between doing it yourself or paying
the money, and only you can decide which is
preferable to you.
-Snail
Tom Sawyer on sat 3 jan 04
Just an observation but why is it that a good "craft" photographer can
charge $125-150/hour and potters make so pitifully little? How many on this
website would consider pricing their pottery on the basis of these rates?
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Snail Scott
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 11:42 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Cost of professional slides
At 06:04 PM 1/1/04 EST, you wrote:
>...Good "craft" photographers charge somewhere in the vicinity of
>$125-150 per hour, at least in cities I've lived in...and this
>particular session took 2 hours...
>Was that fair, or was I ripped off?
It's higher than I've ever paid, but I wouldn't be surprised if that sort of
cost varies regionally.
If you got really good slides of 20 pieces, and it only took two hours of
your time in addition to the cash, I'd say you got something worthwhile.
Could you have gotten it cheaper? Maybe, or maybe not. If that's the going
rate where you live, then it's not a matter of being 'ripped off', it's a
simple choice between doing it yourself or paying the money, and only you
can decide which is preferable to you.
-Snail
____________________________________________________________________________
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Saic1984@AOL.COM on sat 3 jan 04
The same reason a good "wedding" photographer can charge 1500 - 2500 (or
more) for an evening of shooting. Unfortunately, it is known as "Market Factor"
pricing....
Andre
Tony Ferguson on sat 3 jan 04
Tom,
Potters, generally, have low artistic self-esteem. Many folks have 60's or
70's pricing. Many seem to think that you should just barely makes ends
meet because thats how its always been, part of the tradition. The
photographer is willing to put his foot down and say this is what I need to
make a living. The potter is not. The potter is willing to undercut or
under price his fellow potter because he or she can--a detriment to what we
need to survive. The photographer's prices or rates are much more closer
together, consistent. Potter's prices are from the earth to the moon
creating confusion among the buying public about what we need to make a
living.
It is worth every penny to pay a good photographer (and they have to be good
or they are not in business long) to document your work. How else will
people see your pieces? I payed a pro 2 times to shoot my work and then
built my own copy stand, light box, etc out of necessity. So can you. You
can learn yourself or pay someone who knows.
Thank you.
Tony Ferguson
On Lake Superior, where the sky meets the Lake
Custom & Manufactured Kiln Design
Stoneware, Porcelain, Raku and more
by Coleman, Ferguson, Winchester...
http://www.aquariusartgallery.com
218-727-6339
315 N. Lake Ave
Apt 312
Duluth, MN 55806
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Sawyer"
To:
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: Cost of professional slides
> Just an observation but why is it that a good "craft" photographer can
> charge $125-150/hour and potters make so pitifully little? How many on
this
> website would consider pricing their pottery on the basis of these rates?
>
> Tom Sawyer
> tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Snail Scott
> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 11:42 AM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Cost of professional slides
>
> At 06:04 PM 1/1/04 EST, you wrote:
> >...Good "craft" photographers charge somewhere in the vicinity of
> >$125-150 per hour, at least in cities I've lived in...and this
> >particular session took 2 hours...
> >Was that fair, or was I ripped off?
>
>
> It's higher than I've ever paid, but I wouldn't be surprised if that sort
of
> cost varies regionally.
>
> If you got really good slides of 20 pieces, and it only took two hours of
> your time in addition to the cash, I'd say you got something worthwhile.
> Could you have gotten it cheaper? Maybe, or maybe not. If that's the going
> rate where you live, then it's not a matter of being 'ripped off', it's a
> simple choice between doing it yourself or paying the money, and only you
> can decide which is preferable to you.
>
> -Snail
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Kathy Forer on sat 3 jan 04
Having briefly been an object photographer before the advent of home
computers led me in a different direction, I can say it's because
photography is an expensive process. Okay you have kilns, wheels and
glazes, but if you were to make only a pot or two a day and had camera,
lights and backdrops, you'd need to recoup your investment.
Fine-grained film as well is costly. There's also transportation to and
fro.
It's one of those activities that has hidden costs so maybe those two
hours in the studio really take the photographer four hours. When I do
Macintosh consulting, a similar thing happens, I charge a high hourly
rate but am at my peak and have already studied up on the problems
likely to be encountered. Though the same can be said for pottery,
you're selling wares, not services.
Is time any different in the studio? Would you like to be paid "by the
hour" for everything you do? (I sure would!!...) "Time is money" was a
counter-mantra of my teacher/mentor, my greatest fear, a shibboleth for
the world of mammon. It's where you stop working, living, and are only
punching a clock. If you say, "if I taper this handle, then I'll have
to charge an extra hour," then you should charge more, but if somehow
it gets tapered and you can't help it, you should charge more
anyway....
It's a quandary, how to account for all the time in a studio.
Especially hard if you have a dealer who takes fully half and all of a
sudden there goes any profit. How to price pieces is tough as well. But
it's different than pricing your time for services.
Kathy Forer
foreverink.com
On Jan 3, 2004, at 9:14 AM, Tom Sawyer wrote:
> Just an observation but why is it that a good "craft" photographer can
> charge $125-150/hour and potters make so pitifully little? How many on
> this
> website would consider pricing their pottery on the basis of these
> rates?
David Hendley on sat 3 jan 04
----- Original Message -----
> Just an observation but why is it that a good "craft" photographer can
> charge $125-150/hour and potters make so pitifully little?
"Perception" and "low artistic self-esteem" may well pay a small role
in the difference between what potters and photographers charge
for their time.
There are, however, very real rational and practical reasons for the
difference.
With my graduate degree in ceramics and 30 years experience, let's
see, I am qualified to:
make pottery by inefficient out-of-date methods, which I can then
try to sell to the 1% of the population that is remotely interested.
Meanwhile, 2% or more of the population has a friend/cousin/
daughter who makes pottery and gives it away or sells it cheaply.
Virtually no one "needs" handmade pottery and I don't have a skill
that transfers to any other area.
I am also indirectly competing with third world workers.
People know how much factory made pottery costs. Even though
I make something different, there is still some correlation in people's
minds.
Let's compare that with the professional photographer. He is
qualified to
make "art" photography,
do freelance commercial photography,
work for a newspaper or magazine,
shoot weddings and bar mitzvahs,
work for any large corporation,
et cetera, and on and on.
If there is too much price competition in one area, and he wants to
make more money, he has plenty of other job opportunities.
He faces no competition from low-wage imported work.
Much of the work photographers do is not "retail" work - it
is business work. Businesses need (not want) the services
of a photographer in order to conduct their own business, and
are willing to pay what it takes (thus low-earning potters will
pay photographers $150 an hour so they can hope to make
some sales).
Just imagine what Halliburton or CBS pays photographers
for the images in their annual reports. When potters who want
to make more money can get jobs with 6-digit incomes,
medical insurance, and retirement benefits, then those of us
left as studio potters will be more able to charge more for
our time.
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
Lee Love on sat 3 jan 04
----- Original Message -----
From: "Snail Scott"
> simple choice between doing it yourself or paying
> the money, and only you can decide which is
> preferable to you.
Also, you have to figure out if you can make more money doing your work in
that hour, than it costs to pay a pro to do a better job. The
photographer might be able to make the soup bowl he is photographing, but it
might be better both timewise and in outcome, if he bought the bowl from a
potter.
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://Mashiko.us
Richard J Mahaffey on sun 4 jan 04
I find that it is cheaper to use a pro and get the results that I want
and need. The $75.00 to 150.00 per hour yields a set of slides that
can be use to solicit exhibitions and to enter craft shows like the ACC
shows and various local shows that have gone to slide jury lately.
You can also create promotional pieces with the same images as well.
Getting into the right show can be worth thousands to you, and that
does not include the repeat orders on wholesale. The other reason for
slides is that once a piece is sold, if you do not have good slides, it
is gone and you never made if for all practical purposes. Dale
Chihuly employs to full time photographers in his Tacoma operation and
there may be other in his Seattle operation. He does not let a piece
out of his studio until it is documented throughly. I am sure that he
has slides in a fire proof safe somewhere.
One of the reasons that Chihuly is so successful is that he was always
willing to do the things that artists hate to do, like taking slides of
their work. With those images he was able to promote himself and his
work and was able to show slides to gallery owners and museum curators
and talk them into showing his work. In light of what you can do with
good quality slides and what you can not do without them, $150.00 for a
good set is cheap.
"The quality will be remembered long after the price is forgotten"
Fredrick Henry Royce, the Royce of Rolls-Royce.
YMMV,
Rick Mahaffey
Tacoma, Washington, USA
Lee Love on sun 4 jan 04
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Sawyer"
> Just an observation but why is it that a good "craft" photographer can
> charge $125-150/hour and potters make so pitifully little? How many on
this
> website would consider pricing their pottery on the basis of these rates?
They are apples and oranges actually. But some potters make much
more per hour than these photographers, maybe more on par with "art"
photographers.
People get grants and into MFA programs, juried shows and craft
fairs from professional slides. The investment can be seen as "up front"
seed money. If we could provide artists with pots that could help them
in the same way that professional slides do, we might have a better chance
at creating value.
With photography, even the uneducated can have some idea about what
fine work is. We live in an "image" society. But many people are not
versed in the language of fine craft. We need to be educators.
The last time I saw my late uncle Tadao, we were walking through a
high end neighborhood, the Osaka Ginza. He followed me into a gallery
where pottery was on sale. On the way out, we came across a wooden barrel
display that was full of "lower end" guinomi, sake cups. They were all
priced at $200.00 He said to me, "You should make these. $200.00 each!"
Of course, each of these pieces took much less than an hour to make them.
That was in '98, when I came to Japan to attend the show I was in, near
Nasu at Western Village. He died before I started my apprenticeship.
Two years ago, I received from my teacher, in his New Years lottery for the
workers and deshis, one of his copper red and enameled guinomi. These
usually sell for about $1,500.00 I thought of my Uncle right away when my
number gave me this. You can see it here:
http://www.geocities.com/akitajin/gui.jpg
Next time I visit Sakai, I hope to leave a guinomi at my
family's grave, for my uncle. I'm only charging $32.00 for mine. You
can see some guinomi at the online show here:
http://mashiko.org/pottery/img17.htm
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://Mashiko.us
Lee Love on sun 4 jan 04
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Ferguson"
> It is worth every penny to pay a good photographer (and they have to be
good
> or they are not in business long) to document your work. How else will
> people see your pieces? I payed a pro 2 times to shoot my work and then
> built my own copy stand, light box, etc out of necessity. So can you.
You
> can learn yourself or pay someone who knows.
You explain the difference right here. Has nothing to do with the "self
esteem" of potters. Apples and oranges.
If we want people to value what we do we have to educate them.
When people complain about Warren MacKenzie's prices I find it
amusing. Why? Because the educating of the public he has done has helped
make it possible for the rest of us functional potters to make a living,
especially in places like Minnesota and Wisconsin. My guess, is if it
weren't for the educating of the public that folks like MacKenzie and Leach
have done, 90% of us functional potters would be doing other things, because
there would be a much smaller market for what we do.
I think our generation is slack in this area. We need to pick up
the reigns, start writing some books of the likes Leach's original.
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://Mashiko.us
Web Log (click on recent date):
http://www.livejournal.com/users/togeika/calendar
Kathy Forer on mon 5 jan 04
Make sure you take enough slides of any one thing. It's easier, less
expensive and you get better quality if you take ten slides of one
setup than if you have a single slide duplicated. Of course, if the
photographer is bracketing, that's a problem. I used to try to take
test rolls, have them developed right away then go forward. With some
variation, a setup would be predictable so you wouldn't need to
bracket.
Kathy Forer
www.foreverink.com www.kforer.com
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