Ingeborg Foco on sun 11 jan 04
Hi everyone,
Yesterday I had a customer come to my gallery and purchase some items.
While chatting with them they told me they had purchased a beautiful
(expensive)platter at an art fair and that it cracked when they took it out
of the oven.
She had removed it from the fridge loaded with hors-d'oeuvre, brought them
to room temperature (according to instructions) and then put the platter
into the oven. She served the food on the platter and everything was
wonderful. It was so beautiful and the party was grand. Then she reloaded
the platter with more food and put it back into the oven to warm. Upon
removing the platter with food, setting it down on the counter, it went
crack, crack and crack in three places. Needless to say, she was very
disappointed. Primarily she was asking me what's up. She did everything
according to the potter's instructions and the platter broke.
I am trying to explain and defend someone else's work, work I can't see or
know much about. I did explain that there were many variables and the
larger, flatter a piece, the more stresses there are blah blah blah. I said
that if it were my platter, I would want them to come back to me and I would
make it right. So, if there is a person who does Florida Art Fairs and
makes beautiful LARGE platters, be prepared!
My question, is it safer to say these type of items are NOT oven safe? Why
do they really crack? Is there a body that will in fact withstand these
kind of stresses? How do most of you handle this type of thing? I'm
getting very close to telling my customers that large platters, casseroles
and such are just serving pieces not intended to go into the oven.
Personally I've not had anyone complain but it makes me think hard about
this. Is it worth the hassles?
I guess I would like a discussion on how others handle this type of thing.
I don't mean the replacement part....that is a no brainer. Do you make
functional work that can take the oven stresses and so forth. If so, do you
have a secret you are willing to share. Each time someone purchases
something like that and it fails, it is a reflection on the rest of us.
Sincerely,
Ingeborg
I almost hesitate to send this because my punctuation is probably lousy and
right now I feel like I am throwing comas everywhere. Just to cover my A***
My spell check tells me there is no such word as in "no brainer" but you
get the drift.
Ingeborg in SW Florida where she had to wear her Polypropylene (skiwear)
underwear under her work clothes to work in her Open Air Tropical Studio
today!
the Potter's Workshop & Gallery
P.O. Box 510
3058 Stringfellow Road
St. James City, Florida 33956
239-283-2775
Jennifer Boyer on mon 12 jan 04
Hi All,
One thing you can't control with instructions is how the customer
arranges the food on a flat form like a platter. I've had several
returns over the years due to cracking in the oven: in 2 cases the
customer had not covered the whole platter with food: One was heating
nachos, so the cheese hit the platter in irregular places. The other
was cooking meat loaf in a pie plate and had made a loaf shape that
didn't cover the whole bottom of the pie plate. Clay forms DON'T like
being heated up in some places and not others. Plus the cheese and the
meat were very hot, since fat gets intensely hot...I just figure I have
a few pots to replace for customers every 5 years or so, and I can't
stand by them to direct their cooking ! Sounds like the customer
mentioned below might have been doing the same thing as these customers
of mine..
Jennifer, bracing for minus numbers again..... 20 degrees feels so
toasty!
On Sunday, January 11, 2004, at 06:51 PM, Ingeborg Foco wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Yesterday I had a customer come to my gallery and purchase some items.
> While chatting with them they told me they had purchased a beautiful
> (expensive)platter at an art fair and that it cracked when they took
> it out
> of the oven.
>
>
>
***********************************************
never pass on virus warnings or emails without checking them at:
http://snopes.com
Jennifer Boyer - Thistle Hill Pottery
Montpelier, VT 05602
http://thistlehillpottery.com
***********************************************
Rikki Gill on mon 12 jan 04
Hi Ingeborg,
I make rolled platters, not huge, but fairly large. totally flat bottoms.
I tell customers that while they should be okay in the oven, I don't
recommend it.
They sell partly as paintings. And they are safe in the microwave and
dishwasher. So I suggest they use hot water to heat them prior to use, and
transfer hot food to them after cooking.
I have never [yet] had one returned, and I am very easy to find. I show
exclusively at the Berkeley Potters Guild and the Oakland Museum.
I would always replace anything a customer brought back, however.
Hope this helps. Rikki
rikigil@cwnet.com
www.rikkigillceramics.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ingeborg Foco"
To:
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 3:51 PM
Subject: Oven cracking platters
> Hi everyone,
>
> Yesterday I had a customer come to my gallery and purchase some items.
> While chatting with them they told me they had purchased a beautiful
> (expensive)platter at an art fair and that it cracked when they took it
out
> of the oven.
>
>>
Kathi LeSueur on mon 12 jan 04
ifoco@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
>Hi everyone,
>
> Upon
>removing the platter with food, setting it down on the counter, it went
>crack, crack and crack in three places. Needless to say, she was very
>disappointed. Primarily she was asking me what's up. She did everything
>according to the potter's instructions and the platter broke.
>
>
>
>
If she put it on one of those very popular marble counters I can see why
it would break. Marble is used by pastry bakers because it provides such
a cool surface. So, if that's the case, she would have put a hot platter
on a cool surface causing the bottom of the platter to get cool very
quick. When I remove large platters from the oven I always put them on a
wooden cutting board.
Kathi
claybair on mon 12 jan 04
Ingeborg,
I has occurred to me that soon we
might have to list all precautions on
the bottom of our ware.
I hope there is room amongst the
paragraphs of instruction and warning
there is a little room for a signature.
Gayle Bair- Sun..... hallelujah... I see sky & sun!!!!
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Ingeborg
Foco
snip<
Yesterday I had a customer come to my gallery and purchase some items.
While chatting with them they told me they had purchased a beautiful
(expensive)platter at an art fair and that it cracked when they took it out
of the oven.
She had removed it from the fridge loaded with hors-d'oeuvre, brought them
to room temperature (according to instructions) and then put the platter
into the oven. She served the food on the platter and everything was
wonderful. It was so beautiful and the party was grand. Then she reloaded
the platter with more food and put it back into the oven to warm. Upon
removing the platter with food, setting it down on the counter, it went
crack, crack and crack in three places. Needless to say, she was very
disappointed. Primarily she was asking me what's up. She did everything
according to the potter's instructions and the platter broke.
Snip
Craig Martell on mon 12 jan 04
Hello Ingeborg:
I guess the short answer here is that large platters are not real durable
for ovenware. I knew a guy who had a business making terra cotta Pizza
Bricks for baking pizzas and he did very well with them. No glaze, heavily
grogged, non vitrified earthenware that could take a lot of stress and had
a very low COE. Large, flat, vitrified ware doesn't adjust that well to
temp changes.
I think that platters would stand a better chance in the oven if some
mechanical factors were looked at carefully. Cross section of the piece
would be important in the respect of gain and loss of applied heat from the
oven. If the rims are too thin there will be faster heat gain and loss
there which could lead to quick failure. If the claybody isn't balanced
well and has formed enough cristobalite there will be loss from expansion
cracking problems. So, there should be enough spar in the body to
eliminate this. Glaze fit is also important. A crazed glaze will weaken
the piece from glaze cracks extending into the interface. A glaze that is
under slight compression, with no crazing, will make a much stronger piece.
If a potter is going to consider recommending platters for ovenware, an
"all of the above" approach would better the chances of survival over a
long period of use. I think that I would tell people to use the large
platters as a serving piece and heat food with other stuff that will
withstand the oven "in and out" ordeal. Cookie sheets work great for
apertifs etc and they are inexpensive and won't crack.
regards, Craig Martell Hopewell, Oregon
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 13 jan 04
Hi Gayle,
Yes, like they have for the pharmaceuticals -
'Bible-on-the-head-of-a-pin' sized fonts...
Something the size of a postage stamp as folds out to the
size of a pillow case...
...with provisos and disclaimers and side effects in maybe a
dozen other Languages...hell, make up some probable looking
Languages, who'd know?
That ought to do 'er...
And something as says, for having looked at it at all, or
not, is prima-face unilateral contractual aceedence and
concent and
agreement to all it's clauses, stated or not, or, whatever
the mfg'r sez it means to sez, it 'sez'...
Phil
lasvegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "claybair"
To:
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Oven cracking platters
> Ingeborg,
>
> I has occurred to me that soon we
> might have to list all precautions on
> the bottom of our ware.
> I hope there is room amongst the
> paragraphs of instruction and warning
> there is a little room for a signature.
>
> Gayle Bair- Sun..... hallelujah... I see sky & sun!!!!
> Bainbridge Island, WA
> http://claybair.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ingeborg
> Foco
> snip<
> Yesterday I had a customer come to my gallery and purchase
some items.
> While chatting with them they told me they had purchased a
beautiful
> (expensive)platter at an art fair and that it cracked when
they took it out
> of the oven.
>
> She had removed it from the fridge loaded with
hors-d'oeuvre, brought them
> to room temperature (according to instructions) and then
put the platter
> into the oven. She served the food on the platter and
everything was
> wonderful. It was so beautiful and the party was grand.
Then she reloaded
> the platter with more food and put it back into the oven
to warm. Upon
> removing the platter with food, setting it down on the
counter, it went
> crack, crack and crack in three places. Needless to say,
she was very
> disappointed. Primarily she was asking me what's up. She
did everything
> according to the potter's instructions and the platter
broke.
> Snip
>
>
____________________________________________________________
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>
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>
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at melpots@pclink.com.
Liz Willoughby on tue 13 jan 04
Thanks Craig,
A good informative post on large platters and cracking. I got out
out my Hamer's last night, looking this up. Could remember that Ron
Roy had said something about clay with too much cristobalite is not a
good thing for ovenware.
I had a friend once that made large platters, which always cracked
when used. It was the stoneware clay that she was using.
Liz from Grafton
>Hello Ingeborg:
>
>I guess the short answer here is that large platters are not real durable
>for ovenware. I knew a guy who had a business making terra cotta Pizza
>Bricks for baking pizzas and he did very well with them. No glaze, heavily
>grogged, non vitrified earthenware that could take a lot of stress and had
>a very low COE. Large, flat, vitrified ware doesn't adjust that well to
>temp changes.
>
>I think that platters would stand a better chance in the oven if some
>mechanical factors were looked at carefully. Cross section of the piece
>would be important in the respect of gain and loss of applied heat from the
>oven. If the rims are too thin there will be faster heat gain and loss
>there which could lead to quick failure. If the claybody isn't balanced
>well and has formed enough cristobalite there will be loss from expansion
>cracking problems. So, there should be enough spar in the body to
>eliminate this. Glaze fit is also important. A crazed glaze will weaken
>the piece from glaze cracks extending into the interface. A glaze that is
>under slight compression, with no crazing, will make a much stronger piece.
>
>If a potter is going to consider recommending platters for ovenware, an
>"all of the above" approach would better the chances of survival over a
>long period of use. I think that I would tell people to use the large
>platters as a serving piece and heat food with other stuff that will
>withstand the oven "in and out" ordeal. Cookie sheets work great for
>apertifs etc and they are inexpensive and won't crack.
>
>regards, Craig Martell Hopewell, Oregon
Ingeborg Foco on wed 14 jan 04
Thanks to everyone who responded on and off list with opinions and
suggestions for this "oven cracking platter" problem.
Janet K of course had the best response, clearly the most common sense
response and perhaps the longest :) If we could only give her suggestions
to potential customers this and most other problems could be totally
alleviated.
I am afraid that many of us are somewhat to blame in portraying our pots to
be oven safe (I am at any rate) when in reality it is questionable. Janet
is right in saying we are not making high tech pots and our platters and
bowls are clearly not Pyrex ware. With that in mind, we should probably not
advertise them to be useable as though they were.
While I have no problem in replacing a platter or two every so often, I may
never hear of the broken platter since I am in a tourist area where the same
people may never pass this way again. Instead, there will be a customer
highly irate at all hand made goods. In light of that, I think I will
change my written care and use label.
I am toying with the idea of making flame ware so that it can be subjected
to oven use. Of course, one would not want to mention that it can go on the
stove top as that is another can of worms not to be opened. How complicated
making flame ware is and how well it throws and works with existing glazes I
haven't a clue.
Until this customer came in complaining about someone else's platter
cracking, I never gave any of this a thought...maybe I can just go back to
blissful ignorance tomorrow?
Sincerely,
Ingeborg
the Potter's Workshop & Gallery
P.O. Box 510
3058 Stringfellow Road
St. James City, Florida 33956
239-283-2775
Janet Kaiser on wed 14 jan 04
Hi Ingeborg! You know what? Any cook or caterer would actually
cast their hands up in horror and declare "You heated canap=E9s
on a plate???" No, no, no, Madame.... Think of your poor hands
serving the nasty hot plate! Think of the furniture you may harm.
Or your guests, who could burn... Non! non! non! Please... You
must always use a baking tray and transfer hot/heated food onto a
plate to serve. Then you can also reject the ones that split,
burned, leaked sauce, deformed... And arrange the others in a
pretty manner... Yes? And if the plate is too cold, it should be
pre-warmed (never heated) so the food does not cool too
quickly... Bon!
Now, Madame, please be good to your poor plates... You wish for
them to be heirlooms, yes? Well, then you must treat them with
great respect just as grand-mere would have done! Did you see her
put Sevres or Royal Copenhagen in the oven when it was to go to
table or to serve guests?? No, of course not! That is why
grandmother had "kitchen ware" and "serving" dishes and plates...
We must respect that... There was a reason!
But of course instead of blaming the user, the Potter would be
blamed and everyone will wonder why... INCLUDING OTHER
POTTERS!!!??? Yet it is/was a completely inappropriate use of
this or any other large platter or plate! Nevertheless you will
probably get a sack full of replies... And here are a couple more
things from my perspective, which I think many makers would do
well to address when making/selling work:
1. Ceramic plates and platters only belong in an oven to bake
pies upon from a "raw" and freshly Ma-made state, i.e. not
chilled or deep frozen. The pie is a deep crust variety, is the
same size as the plate, with a double crimping around the edges.
You know the type... Granny`s Apple Pie. And it is at baking, NOT
roasting temperatures...
That is the theory. Unfortunately, many cooks did not go to the
same school... They do not know this "law" on the use of plates
and platters! Even some potters would not agree...
2. When removed from the oven, these bone fide "Plate Pies" are
gently placed onto a wooden board to cool slowly... Not a
counter, not an oven top, not a trivet... Again, the end users
are not all aware of this rule either. It is what many will
consider "common sense" but even that was learned... And there
are apparently a great number who lack large chunks of it these
days...
3. These rules/laws are historical fact, not fiction or any sort
of "belittling" of contemporary craftsmen and their work! We all
have been spoiled by manufactured wares which are really quite
remarkable in that they have kept pace with other technical
developments around the home and at work such as microwave ovens,
dishwashers, etc. Just think of glass like Pyrex... my
grandmother had one of the very first pyrex dishes and amazed all
the neighbours first with it and then the first pressure cooker
seen in town! :o) Think of our plastic containers which can be
taken straight out of a freezer and then placed in a conventional
oven or microwave... Well, any of that would make my granny faint
from incredulity!! These are all developments in our own lives or
recent times... However, the pots being made in studios and
workshops are NOT this high tech. They are made using anything
from an ancient to medieval technology, methodology and medium!
4. Ceramic platters and plates should never be put into an oven
or under a grill with a few bits and pieces on to warm, brown,
toast or otherwise heat. The exception (and of course there has
to be one) is "hotel ware" and the properly tried and tested
wares of both large and small scale manufacturers, which in all
likelihood have been made of properly formulated slip or even
powdered, compressed clay, but certainly not plastic clay. They
also stick to conventions, such as rims of a certain uniform
thickness, diameters not exceeding 10-12 inches / 28-30 cm. Rings
and/or supports in the bases... Lots of "norming" compared to
studio ceramics...
Do the end users know this? Do they care? Not until they suffer
damage or breakage...
5. Makers of hand-made ware will be collectively at an increasing
disadvantage as the number of "accidents" of the nature you
describe occur, Ingeborg. It does not really matter whether
through poor workmanship/technical faults or inappropriate use by
customers. It is neither here nor there what the "fault" is or
was... The best way around the whole problem, is to say that
large plates and platters are to serve only, but are dishwasher
safe. Especially highly decorative ones... Frank Hamer makes
"fish platters" which he categorically says are "primarily for
decoration and occasional use as serving dishes only". I think
this is a sensible precaution for all potters.
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser -- now enjoying the calm following the storm...
What a night!
*** IN REPLY TO THE FOLLOWING MAIL:
>Yesterday I had a customer come to my gallery and purchase some
items.
>While chatting with them they told me they had purchased a
beautiful
>(expensive)platter at an art fair and that it cracked when they
took it out
>of the oven. She had removed it from the fridge loaded with
hors-d'oeuvre, brought them to room temperature (according to
instructions) and then put the platter
>into the oven. She served the food on the platter and
everything was
>wonderful. It was so beautiful and the party was grand. Then
she reloaded
>the platter with more food and put it back into the oven to
warm. Upon
>removing the platter with food, setting it down on the counter,
it went
>crack, crack and crack in three places. Needless to say, she
was very
>disappointed. Primarily she was asking me what's up. She did
everything
>according to the potter's instructions and the platter broke.
*** THE MAIL FROM Ingeborg Foco ENDS HERE ***
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