william schran on thu 22 jan 04
Linda wrote:>1. Health-wise, am I kidding myself by thinking
that--given my basement configuration--I don't need a vent?
2. Is there a time during the firing process when it would be "worse"
to take a breath in the basement? (The dealer said the environment is
"worse at the beginning" but I'm not sure if that's during bisquing,
glazing, or both.)
3. Would my not using a vent significantly affect my glaze color
results in oxidation?<
#1 - you're kidding yourself - you'll get fumes throughout the house.
#2 - the bisque firing is the worst for giving off fumes/gases/smells
- you name it. As organic materials burn out, carbon monoxide will be
emitted. Later in the firing, depending on the clay, you could have
sulfur dioxide burning out - pee ewe!
#3 - I've found my kiln fires more evenly top to bottom with the vent running.
You don't have to buy the manufacturer's vent. I have the Bailey
vent, works fine.
Noted you're in Northern Virginia - I teach ceramics at NVCC,
Alexandria Campus. Contact me if you need help or have questions -
look up contact info on the school web site.
Bill
Juneau on thu 22 jan 04
Hi everyone!
Your insights really helped me with my kiln-selection decision! I'm going with an L&L e28S (28" wide by 18" deep, fires to Cone 10). My budget is very tight (an understatement), so I want to know if I need to buy a $400 kiln vent based on my circumstances.
I'm firing in my basement, which is a "walk out" (i.e., it has sliding glass doors onto the patio, plus a normal-sized [36" x 64"] window). I will place the kiln right under the window within the standard 18" distance-from-the-wall parameter. In the summer I can open both the doors and the window; in the winter, I can use an exhaust fan in the window, but it's about 23 degrees here in Northern VA right now so I'd rather keep the doors closed.
The good salespeople at the distributor say that, given that configuration and the fact that I won't be hanging out in the basement while firing, it is ok not to buy a kiln vent right away. (I'll be firing dinnerware, although I realize that post-firing food safety does not mean fume-safety!)
I have three questions, and admitting that I haven't bought & read my usual pile 'o books on the topic yet, I'll add one more:
1. Health-wise, am I kidding myself by thinking that--given my basement configuration--I don't need a vent?
2. Is there a time during the firing process when it would be "worse" to take a breath in the basement? (The dealer said the environment is "worse at the beginning" but I'm not sure if that's during bisquing, glazing, or both.)
3. Would my not using a vent significantly affect my glaze color results in oxidation?
4. Any recommendations for a "must-read" book on firing and glazes for a beginner?
Many thanks for your thoughtful help!
--Linda
Juneaupup@yahoo.com
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
John Hesselberth on thu 22 jan 04
On Thursday, January 22, 2004, at 02:23 PM, Dave Finkelnburg wrote:
> I prefer the Bailey system because the fan motor, and vibration, are
> mounted on the wall and away from the kiln. It's also closer to $300
> delivered to you, though some installation is required.
> In my limited experience, glaze color won't be affected so much
> without
> a vented electric kiln. The vent does help get a cleaner bisque
> firing,
> though, which can reduce glaze faults.
In addition to the points Dave made, a kiln vent will improve top to
bottom uniformity in most cases. Also the design of the Bailey and the
L&L are very similar. It is the Orton and the Skutt that mount
underneath the kiln and blow the fumes right back into the room if
there is any leak in the duct work.
Regards,
John
http://www.frogpondpottery.com
http://www.masteringglazes.com
Gordon Ward on thu 22 jan 04
Hi Linda,
An exhaust fan is a big help, but not as good as a direct venting system.
Some people rig up plastic curtains to help contain fumes, but you may begin
to discover corroding metal in the vacinity of the kiln without proper
ventillation. Also the fumes tend to rise, so may enter spaces above.
Get a vent system that will get rid of fumes before they enter the room and
you won't have to worry.
Bisquing is worst, I think due to sulfur and other soluable materials in
certain clays. I suspect ball clays are particularly bad. Once the clay
body is sintered the fuming seems to be much less.
You could try a bisque with the clay you will be using and see how it seems.
Your nose will tell you how bad it is. Personally, if I smell anything, it
is too much.
Gordon
> From: Juneau
> Reply-To: Clayart
> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 05:30:27 -0800
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Do I need a kiln vent?
>
> 1. Health-wise, am I kidding myself by thinking that--given my basement
> configuration--I don't need a vent?
Dave Finkelnburg on thu 22 jan 04
Linda,
In my biased opinion, yes, you really do want a kiln vent. The kiln
generates fumes when the organics burn out of the clay in the first firing
and later in the glaze fire when the wax burns off if you use wax resist.
Also, you'll get sulfur burning off late in the bisque fire. You'll know
about it if you breathe those fumes and start coughing. The sulfur fumes
make minute quantities of sulfuric acid in your lungs! Finally, and worst,
if you use any glaze colorants that fume, such as manganese, copper, chrome,
etc. those heavy metal fumes, produced near the end of the glaze firing,
should be vented outside.
Look for a vent system that uses negative pressure (it sucks air out of
the inside of the kiln) -- Bailey or Orton are examples. The hood-type
vents are good to remove heat from the room but only get part of the kiln
fumes. You want all of the fumes outdoors.
I prefer the Bailey system because the fan motor, and vibration, are
mounted on the wall and away from the kiln. It's also closer to $300
delivered to you, though some installation is required.
In my limited experience, glaze color won't be affected so much without
a vented electric kiln. The vent does help get a cleaner bisque firing,
though, which can reduce glaze faults.
Good firing,
Dave Finkelnburg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Juneau"
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 6:30 AM
> Your insights really helped me with my kiln-selection decision! I'm going
with an L&L e28S (28" wide by 18" deep, fires to Cone 10). My budget is very
tight (an understatement), so I want to know if I need to buy a $400 kiln
vent based on my circumstances.
>
> I'm firing in my basement, which is a "walk out" (i.e., it has sliding
glass doors onto the patio, plus a normal-sized [36" x 64"] window). I will
place the kiln right under the window within the standard 18"
distance-from-the-wall parameter. In the summer I can open both the doors
and the window; in the winter, I can use an exhaust fan in the window, but
it's about 23 degrees here in Northern VA right now so I'd rather keep the
doors closed.
>
> The good salespeople at the distributor say that, given that configuration
and the fact that I won't be hanging out in the basement while firing, it is
ok not to buy a kiln vent right away. (I'll be firing dinnerware, although I
realize that post-firing food safety does not mean fume-safety!)
>
> I have three questions, and admitting that I haven't bought & read my
usual pile 'o books on the topic yet, I'll add one more:
>
> 1. Health-wise, am I kidding myself by thinking that--given my basement
configuration--I don't need a vent?
> 2. Is there a time during the firing process when it would be "worse" to
take a breath in the basement? (The dealer said the environment is "worse at
the beginning" but I'm not sure if that's during bisquing, glazing, or
both.)
> 3. Would my not using a vent significantly affect my glaze color results
in oxidation?
> 4. Any recommendations for a "must-read" book on firing and glazes for a
beginner?
Arnold Howard on thu 22 jan 04
Linda, I recommend that you buy the vent before firing the kiln. If your
kiln were located in a separate shed, you could fire without the vent. But
since the kiln is in your basement, the fumes will filter into your living
area.
The vent will also improve oxidation of the ware during firing, which will
yield better bisque and brighter colors. I've heard only positive comments
about the vents. The one I am familiar with is the Orton KilnVent.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P.
arnoldhoward@att.net
From: "Juneau"
> The good salespeople at the distributor say that, given that configuration
and the fact that I won't be hanging out in the basement while firing, it is
ok not to buy a kiln vent right away.
> 1. Health-wise, am I kidding myself by thinking that--given my basement
configuration--I don't need a vent?
> 2. Is there a time during the firing process when it would be "worse" to
take a breath in the basement? (The dealer said the environment is "worse at
the beginning" but I'm not sure if that's during bisquing, glazing, or
both.)
> 3. Would my not using a vent significantly affect my glaze color results
in oxidation?
Al Sather on thu 22 jan 04
Hi Linda
While living in Newfoundland, I had a very similar studio setup that you
described. In attempt to keep dust from infiltrating the house, I even put a
sealed plastic liner over the ceiling and walls before dry walling. The door
from the studio to the rest of the house was an exterior door, with a good
seal, as far as I could tell. There was also a second interior door at the
top of the stairs. In terms of dust/fume control it would have been totally
ineffective.
Dust getting into the house was a perpetual problem. Much of it, I am sure,
was from dusty feet, etc. I strongly suspect if I did not have the kiln
vented, I would also have kiln gases in the house. My wife often commented
that the house was dustier post firing. I guess the dust is a good (well not
good, but rather visual!) indicator that kiln gases could be infiltrating
into the living space as well.
From my experience, I felt the kiln vent was absolutely essential, and would
not fire a kiln without it being properly vented--even if it was not
connected to a living space. It is just to difficult for me, at least, to
stay out of the studio while the kiln is firing.
I am also a bit of a cynic. When I get advice from people, I always try to
access who is being served by that. You state,
"The good salespeople at the distributor say that, given that
configuration and the fact that I won't be hanging out in the basement
while firing, it is ok not to buy a kiln vent right away."
Who interests is the salesperson representing? The clue is, " not to buy a
kiln vent right away." If I don't need it today, why would I need it later,
and if I would need it later, then why don't I need it today.
BTW, I found the patio doors to be a very effective way of controlling
studio temperature, even in the winter. And, in the summer to have them wide
open while working was a very special treat. It was just like working out of
doors.
I hope this helps
Al Sather
Dogberry Clay Studio
Maple Ridge, British Columbia
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Juneau
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 5:30 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: [CLAYART] Do I need a kiln vent?
Hi everyone!
<>
I'm firing in my basement, which is a "walk out" (i.e., it has sliding glass
doors onto the patio, plus a normal-sized [36" x 64"] window). I will place
the kiln right under the window within the standard 18"
distance-from-the-wall parameter. In the summer I can open both the doors
and the window; in the winter, I can use an exhaust fan in the window, but
it's about 23 degrees here in Northern VA right now so I'd rather keep the
doors closed.
<>
--Linda
Juneaupup@yahoo.com
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Kathy Forer on fri 23 jan 04
Is a direct kiln vent in a basement of a living space sufficient, or
should it be vented to the roof?
Kathy
Kathy Forer
http://kforer.com
http://foreverink.com
Snail Scott on fri 23 jan 04
At 05:30 AM 1/22/04 -0800, you wrote:
>...given that configuration and the fact that I won't be hanging out in
the basement while firing, it is ok not to buy a kiln vent right away.
But where do the fumes go? If they can't leave,
they're still there when you get back. Even if
you don't have a true kiln vent, ventilate the
space WELL before reoccupying it.
-Snail
John Hesselberth on fri 23 jan 04
On Friday, January 23, 2004, at 10:52 AM, Arnold Howard wrote:
> Orton has a new kiln vent called the Floor Mount. The motor is
> positioned
> away from the kiln so that the fumes are pulled from the kiln instead
> of
> pushed.
Hi Arnold,
Great! I'm glad they have changed their design. Is it wall mounted,
though, so the duct work is never under positive pressure? Or have they
just positioned the blower and motor away from the kiln but still rely
on duct to get the fumes from the outlet of the blower to the wall? If
it is the latter I take back my 'great'. They haven't really solved the
problem. Hopefully you will tell me it is the former.
Regards,
John
http://www.frogpondpottery.com
http://www.masteringglazes.com
Barbara Reeley on fri 23 jan 04
Yes. Even firing is not a problem with a vent. I turn the vent off when the
kiln finishes firing.
Barbara
In frozen Upstate NY
Arnold Howard on fri 23 jan 04
From: "John Hesselberth"
a kiln vent will improve top to
> bottom uniformity in most cases. Also the design of the Bailey and the
> L&L are very similar. It is the Orton and the Skutt that mount
> underneath the kiln and blow the fumes right back into the room if
> there is any leak in the duct work.
Orton has a new kiln vent called the Floor Mount. The motor is positioned
away from the kiln so that the fumes are pulled from the kiln instead of
pushed.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P.
arnoldhoward@att.net
Cindy Gatto on fri 23 jan 04
Dear Linda:
I must advise yes, yes, yes, you do need a kiln vent. Especially due to
the fact that you will be firing in the basement of your living space. Even the
best built home you are dealing with fumes and they will find there way into
your living space. Take it from someone who has built homes for more than half
of his life. We fire our kilns in a completely separate room in our teaching
studio and there is a solid steel fire door between the two rooms and I put a
good door sweep under the door and when we first tried firing the kilns
without a vent we found out real quick the need for one. Also a good down draft vent
does have an affect on the colors of a glaze firing. All I can say is our
glazes look much cleaner when fired with a good downdraft vent. Now we have all
of our five kilns vented directly outside via ductwork that goes right out the
ceiling. So all said a done, and I apologize for the length of this post
please try if you can to get the vent. See if you can find one used.
Good luck:
Cindy & Mark
The Mudpit
228 Manhattan Ave
Brooklyn, NY 11206
718-218-9424
mudpitnyc@aol.com
www.mudpitnyc.com
Roger Korn on sat 24 jan 04
Has anyone done some tests to determine the effect of a kiln vent on
oxidation color development? Same ware/test tiles, same glaze in the
same kiln, same schedule, but with vent on vs. vent off? I have always
said that the unvented electric atmosphere is 'neutral', rather than
'oxydizing', since make-up oxygen is limited by the lack of air
circulation, but I realize that I have no hard evidence of the
difference in glaze color results.
Yours for more rigor,
Roger
--
McKay Creek Ceramics
In OR: PO Box 436
North Plains, OR 97133
503-647-5464
In AZ: PO Box 463
Rimrock, AZ 96335
928-567-5699
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sat 24 jan 04
Hi Kathy,
It should allow whatever fumes there may be from the Kiln,
whether scented or not, to
safely be led from entering your Home.
Likely, this will mean some thought for you as to windows as
may be kept open or closed when fireing and so on, or,
especially so, if the Kiln is
vented without the terminus being higher than the roof...
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathy Forer"
> Is a direct kiln vent in a basement of a living space
sufficient, or
> should it be vented to the roof?
>
> Kathy
william schran on sat 24 jan 04
Kathy wrote>Is a direct kiln vent in a basement of a living space
sufficient, or
should it be vented to the roof?<
You should be able to vent right out the wall or portion of window as
long as there is not another window close by that would draw the
fumes back into the house.
Bill
Arnold Howard on mon 26 jan 04
From: "Kathy Forer"
> Is a direct kiln vent in a basement of a living space sufficient, or
> should it be vented to the roof?
Kathy, the fumes should be vented to the outside. Your kiln room should have
an exterior wall so that you can run a vent duct through the wall. If your
room doesn't have an exterior wall, venting is more difficult.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P.
arnoldhoward@att.net
Arnold Howard on mon 26 jan 04
The Orton Floor Mount can be mounted to the wall, though it is usually
placed on the floor. If you mount it to the wall, you will need brackets
available from Orton.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P.
arnoldhoward@att.net
From: "John Hesselberth"
> > Orton has a new kiln vent called the Floor Mount. The motor is
> > positioned
> > away from the kiln so that the fumes are pulled from the kiln instead
> > of
> > pushed.
>
> Hi Arnold,
> Great! I'm glad they have changed their design. Is it wall mounted,
> though, so the duct work is never under positive pressure? Or have they
> just positioned the blower and motor away from the kiln but still rely
> on duct to get the fumes from the outlet of the blower to the wall?
Karen Hinz on tue 27 jan 04
My husband just hooked my kiln up in our basement and we didn't want the
fumes. I may get some negative comments, but we went and purchased a
high air flow stove hood and mounted it above the kiln and vented that
outside through one of the basement windows. (Replaced one of the glass
panes with a filler panel and the ductwork.) I've fired it up to a cone
6 and I put the fan on high. So far it's worked quite well. No smell
upstairs although you do get some smell in the basement. We may get a
little more high tech later, but for the time being it seems to be
working fine for us.
Karen Hinz
Kathy Forer wrote:
> Is a direct kiln vent in a basement of a living space sufficient, or
> should it be vented to the roof?
>
> Kathy
>
>
> Kathy Forer
> http://kforer.com
> http://foreverink.com
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
Alycia Goeke on tue 27 jan 04
karen wrote:
My husband just hooked my kiln up in our basement and we didn't want the
fumes. I may get some negative comments, but we went and purchased a
high air flow stove hood and mounted it above the kiln and vented that
outside through one of the basement windows.
dear karen,
i don't know if the motor on the fan is powerful enough to draw out the
fumes. i would imagine it helps some and prob. depends too on how far the vent hood
is placed above the kiln. what i do know for sure is; it is essential that
you get a high quality digital carbon monoxide detector down there. best to have
it placed somewhere half way up the wall if possible and at least a few feet
away from the kiln. i was exposed to carbon monoxide from my kiln this past
summer and ended up in the emergency room. it can be very dangerous stuff. i had
fired my kiln many times with no problem and i have fired it many times since
with no prob. ( i know now because i have a monitor), but it only take once.
there is a lot of information in the archives about what kind of detectors,
where to place them, etc. also to consider: there are long term effects from
working around low levels of CO, so best not to be in your studio when the kiln
is firing. make sure also to have another source of fresh air available when
you are firing your kiln, a door or window cracked open...this helps with the
circulation of pollutants-many are contained in the glazes as well.
happy potting and healthy firing.
alycia
wayneinkeywest on tue 27 jan 04
Karen:
Far be it from me to rain on your parade.
I always enjoy seeing the inventive ways
people come up with to circumvent
common problems, and your idea is quite novel.
However (:>(
if you are getting "some smell" in the basement,
then you are getting "some fumes" in that basement.
Just my thoughts.
Wayne Seidl
> My husband just hooked my kiln up in our basement and we didn't want the
> fumes. I may get some negative comments, but we went and purchased a
> high air flow stove hood and mounted it above the kiln and vented that
> outside through one of the basement windows. (Replaced one of the glass
> panes with a filler panel and the ductwork.) I've fired it up to a cone
> 6 and I put the fan on high. So far it's worked quite well. No smell
> upstairs although you do get some smell in the basement. We may get a
> little more high tech later, but for the time being it seems to be
> working fine for us.
>
> Karen Hinz
>
> Kathy Forer wrote:
>
> > Is a direct kiln vent in a basement of a living space sufficient, or
> > should it be vented to the roof?
> >
> > Kathy
> >
> >
> > Kathy Forer
> > http://kforer.com
> > http://foreverink.com
> >
> >
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> >
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> > melpots@pclink.com.
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
| |
|
